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nagibatir4

Bombs dont damage heavy tanks.

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nagibatir4

At tier 0 axis drowns in the allies tanks: b1 bis, matilda, s35 somua. Some of them just driving through city and kill everything they see, this makes hard to destroy they. It is impossible to sap because it is moving, it is very hard to destroy with atg because forward part impossible to penetrate, rear part is covered by tank gun, so only available is side parts, but after first shot tanks will drive away and house will cover it. And with that a lot of infantry attack. So last way to kill this hell is LW bombs, but there is one thing - heavy tanks ignore 250kg bombs, they just dont damage they, bomb can kill heavy tanks only by direct hit, but it is insanely hard. Maybe its a bug i idk. I had a lot of situations when part of bomb black exploded texture was under tank, so close. In reality this close hit kills the tank. I think bombs need a buff to penetrate heavy tanks. Proof : B.A.U Report No. 22 "Ground survey of the results of an atack by heavy bombers on a german tank concetration" 

I think this 2 situtations are more accurate to real damage of bombs. ( in other situtations was used 1000lb bombs, or something else)

1. pz 4, gp 500lb, bomb exploded ~3 metres away. (Dont think so that allies can survive axis 250kg bombs that exploded 1-2 metres away, also axis sc250 have ~240 lb 60\40 TNT + amotol, when 500 lb gp bombs have only ~140 lb 60\40 TNT + amotol. 100lb more, more damage)

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2. pz 4, 2x500 lb gp bombs. ~4.5 metres away. (In game even tracks dont destroys after bombs)

67003_original.jpg

So tanks cant be alive after so close hits that was in game, but they alive. Here is another proof, but now it is crew: Terminal Ballistic Data, 1944

We look at 500lb gp bombs. On graph 500lb bomb which exploded 1-2 meters away can injure or kill crew. Armor will reduce blast pressure, but anyway it is will be very bad for crew. ( and thats all for gp 500lb bomb that have 140lb when sc250 have 240lb, it is will damage more)

72894_original.jpg

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McSlimm

I'm just gonna come out and say this game is seriously in need of a damage remodeling because in my short return I have seen some crazy things.
Just the other night I saw 3 Axis tanks surrounding a matty from all sides. Shot after shot we could disable the tank, but not finish it off.
The gunner remained alive, even after 50 or so tank rounds of various calibers to the front, side and rear, nothing.
At some point the tank has to just crumble away. No way it can take that many penetrating hits.

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Kidd27

Its a fine line between real life and game play that needs to be balanced by CRS.  there would be no tanks if "close misses" destroyed them all.

Direct hits are not easy, but very doable and the bombers that can do it have spent a long time perfecting their craft.

The 09f4 cannons can systematically kill off armor. (It penetrates the matty/s35 top engine deck.) if allowed to loiter.

patience and an open mind will show there is never an intentional bias to either side

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nagibatir4
2 hours ago, Kidd27 said:

Its a fine line between real life and game play that needs to be balanced by CRS.  there would be no tanks if "close misses" destroyed them all.

Direct hits are not easy, but very doable and the bombers that can do it have spent a long time perfecting their craft.

The 09f4 cannons can systematically kill off armor. (It penetrates the matty/s35 top engine deck.) if allowed to loiter.

patience and an open mind will show there is never an intentional bias to either side

There is one problem. F4 opens not soon, and with f4 we will get g2 stuka. Tanks are real problem untill we have g2. I tried a lot with bombing, but everytime i get close misses, very close. Even stuka 5 bombs cant direct hit, they all fall around tank, but very close.

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mwhitman

There is currently a bug were bombs aren't damaging vehicles. It effects every vehicle, be it a tank or a ship.

How ever the concussion from them can still kill, thus they can kill some of the light tanks and soft skin vehicles.

 

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nagibatir4
4 hours ago, mwhitman said:

There is currently a bug were bombs aren't damaging vehicles. It effects every vehicle, be it a tank or a ship.

How ever the concussion from them can still kill, thus they can kill some of the light tanks and soft skin vehicles.

 

I know, only heavy tanks dont damage

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fidd
On 7/24/2020 at 10:12 AM, McSlimm said:

I'm just gonna come out and say this game is seriously in need of a damage remodeling because in my short return I have seen some crazy things.
Just the other night I saw 3 Axis tanks surrounding a matty from all sides. Shot after shot we could disable the tank, but not finish it off.
The gunner remained alive, even after 50 or so tank rounds of various calibers to the front, side and rear, nothing.
At some point the tank has to just crumble away. No way it can take that many penetrating hits.

That's actually realistic. One of the Matilda II's  knocked out at Arras in 1940 was found to have suffered 113 hits from 37mm ATG/KwK without a single penetration, nor any scabbing. The Matilda was essentially immune to 37mm's at any range. Some of the Matildas in the Arras attack simply drove over and crushed Pak 36's, which caused one of the SS Battalions to rout iirc.

Blast pressure from a bomb rapidly diminishes with range, and most medium and heavy tanks will withstand even a very near miss, as the blast tends to go upwards rather than sideways. There are numerous anecdotes of civilians, in their Anderson shelters, being completely unaffacted by blast from a 50Kg bomb hitting their house mere yards away, and frequently similarly safe from the blast of a 250kg within 30 yards or so. The chief danger being shrapnel and debris from the blast to a much wider area, however, being in a tank or shelter likewise gives a considerable degree of safety. It's only when one moves into the 500kg/1000lb bomb that blast pressure can cause fatal barotrauma (damage to lungs) over a wide area, but again, being inside a tank gives a great deal of protection, as there's few apertures in which the blast pressure can enter, so the peak pressure inside the tank is considerably lower than if you were outside it.

Direct hits are pretty much the order of the day, and with bombs of the order of 500Kg, to kill a medium or heavy tank (subject to roof armour) which requires dive-bombing to have any realistic prospect of achieving. The Ju87 and Ju88 (when modelled) should achieve this with practice. If not, there's always the 88mm and later Pak38, or the Stug with a HEAT round, or at specific spots the Czech 47mm in the 38t.

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goreblimey

38t has 37mm , not much different to the pz3f gun. Don’t get there hopes up :)

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james10

The Czech 37mm in the 38t is an improvement over the German gun of the same caliber. Despite this it is no where as capable of the actual Czech 47mm in the Panzerjäger I.

Cheers.

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Kilemall
On 7/24/2020 at 4:12 AM, McSlimm said:

I'm just gonna come out and say this game is seriously in need of a damage remodeling because in my short return I have seen some crazy things.
Just the other night I saw 3 Axis tanks surrounding a matty from all sides. Shot after shot we could disable the tank, but not finish it off.
The gunner remained alive, even after 50 or so tank rounds of various calibers to the front, side and rear, nothing.
At some point the tank has to just crumble away. No way it can take that many penetrating hits.

This isn't a damn hitpoint game.  If a gun can't penetrate X amount of armor, it just can't.

It's not this game that's wrong, it's the other games.

This is a video from 2004, but this basic system has been in since Day One.

 

That's not to say there aren't problems or improvements needing doing.

Most of the variability you see in some hits do damage and others don't even though identical shots has to do with a variable hit function with spall.  Those are edge cases where the spall is generated by near penetrations and that can sometimes cause damage, sometimes not.  If anything, it probably spalls too easy.

Now there are issues, most notably that they did an audit of the guns but didn't true up the armor at the same time.  So we got some weird stuff where some guns are overperforming or underperforming historically, for a lot of players they don't care about that they just know 'something changed' and moving the dog bowl is always a risk.

So we'll get a full audit and fixings, and the data is being done by a retired professional armament guy so assuming he's involved in QA at the end of the process I have full confidence we will have the absolute best most accurate system commercially available.  But like many things about the Rats, they are underfunded and outgunned so it's not done yet.  But not outdone.

 

But Matty laughing off flea bites- that's accurate modelling, not a 'problem'.

Edited by Kilemall

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fidd
3 hours ago, goreblimey said:

38t has 37mm , not much different to the pz3f gun. Don’t get there hopes up :)

I stand corrected, it seemed wrong when I typed it. Must be turning senile!

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drkmouse

but  the  elephantin the room still stands.  matties atm are allmost imposslbie to kill, with out a   true lucky  shot...with that and dest, axis  has  no chance in tier 0  and 1 teh "fun factor" is  gone

 

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Kilemall
1 hour ago, drkmouse said:

but  the  elephantin the room still stands.  matties atm are allmost imposslbie to kill, with out a   true lucky  shot...with that and dest, axis  has  no chance in tier 0  and 1 teh "fun factor" is  gone

 

Not an elephant if the darn spawnlists were done right and there was always sufficient 88s and sappers, the PzJgr I gets in game, and hopefully the STO bombing helps the Stuka lay on it's bombs in that 80% ratio dive bombing should with competent pilots.

That's a big part of what's wrong with spawnlist building- the focus is on historical industrial production and generic valuation according to the RL stats.  Instead it should be how it performs in game including aberrations due to the model being off or not able to exactly duplicate results, our biome of terrain and spawning including camo/greenery effects vs. optics, roles so everyone can do the major roles of RDP-armor/gun area control-town approach-CQB facility assault/capture and defend against same, and the correlation of forces including yes the ability to use or defeat alpha units.

I think we can express this by reusing a phrase that has different connotations but is best for this particular issue- correlation of forces.

This report could give you a past and present overview of the phrase as used by Russians and the national defense community-

https://www.rand.org/pubs/research_reports/RR4235.html

 

I'm repurposing it here to mean  the sum total strategic, operational and tactical forces and actions players can use to perform the above four roles used in capturing towns and how they interact and valued according to their actual play capability in relation to supporting friendly and opposing forces.

 

And fun part?  That equation of correlation of forces CHANGES the value of a unit as it moves from invincible to not so much, and also 'too many' makes them more valuable, 'not enough' makes them less valuable.  That unit performance is gonna change based on how many units of what characteristics can kill a thing and also kills aren't the ultimate criteria, town capture is.  Historical production should be a filter that informs maximum number possible to get that historical feel, but not affect cost.  I'm not sure of the exact formula in use, CRS is a bit cagey about this as it's a core aspect of their strat AND tactical game, but I don't believe for a minute these considerations are in. 

But if they aren't, then that's why we all get frustrated with too much or too little in the game, and with CRS back in the business of making new model intros, this spawnlist variation between their reasonable and no doubt well-considered historical research/evalutaion does not consistently out of the box render a fair opportunity product for one side or the other, sometimes both at the same time.

Edited by Kilemall

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McSlimm
6 hours ago, Kilemall said:

This isn't a damn hitpoint game.  If a gun can't penetrate X amount of armor, it just can't.

It's not this game that's wrong, it's the other games.

This is a video from 2004, but this basic system has been in since Day One.

I've played war thunder, it's just as detailed if not more so.
But you're right, the Matty IRL is invulnerable to 37mm AT guns.
It's a spawnlist issue, axis working with lesser equipment.

Edited by McSlimm

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drkmouse

Not an elephant if the darn spawnlists were done right and there was always sufficient 88s and sappers, the PzJgr I gets in game, and hopefully the STO bombing helps the Stuka lay on it's bombs in that 80% ratio dive bombing should with competent pilots.

getting 88's out when allies  op or even  EVEn, is neer imposilbe as  ei are norly already in  ab  be fore you get out or  ea  are  killing them instant, if they do get out last  about  5 sec less brougth from back towns.. ( so when up   you have ot use  2 acoutns and drive long dist to  use them by tyhen tonw sualy camped or even capped

sappers  can no longe r  kil moving matties it seems, and as   the good  matty drivers  jsut  tool aroun in slow mo mode  killing everythign they are  almost  unkllable.

so atm it is a HUGE  dif  100time s more then the tigre ever was, as  at least  there  are  10 units that can kill a tiger and it canot drive and shoot like the matty.

 

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fidd
11 hours ago, goreblimey said:

38t has 37mm , not much different to the pz3f gun. Don’t get there hopes up :)

I stand corrected, it seemed wrong when I typed it. Must be turning senile!

 

1 hour ago, drkmouse said:

Not an elephant if the darn spawnlists were done right and there was always sufficient 88s and sappers, the PzJgr I gets in game, and hopefully the STO bombing helps the Stuka lay on it's bombs in that 80% ratio dive bombing should with competent pilots.

getting 88's out when allies  op or even  EVEn, is neer imposilbe as  ei are norly already in  ab  be fore you get out or  ea  are  killing them instant, if they do get out last  about  5 sec less brougth from back towns.. ( so when up   you have ot use  2 acoutns and drive long dist to  use them by tyhen tonw sualy camped or even capped

sappers  can no longe r  kil moving matties it seems, and as   the good  matty drivers  jsut  tool aroun in slow mo mode  killing everythign they are  almost  unkllable.

so atm it is a HUGE  dif  100time s more then the tigre ever was, as  at least  there  are  10 units that can kill a tiger and it canot drive and shoot like the matty.

 

How many extra Fireflies do you therefore think the Allies should be given when the Tiger II is modelled? :D Be careful what you wish for! The simple fact is that most of the time a matty or char will need to halt periodically as it approaches a town, or at the report of a moving HT, to ensure it does not blunder into a Stug or 88 or a PzIVD, all of which are capable of taking it out. Additionally when it makes these halts, it's vulnerable to sappers. Finally, it can still be tracked. If despite all this, and once you've blown all your 88's, Stugs and IVD's, and it still hasn't been tracked or sapped, it then gets right into town at a top speed of 15mph, then I would suggest it's rather earned the right to be there, and should enjoy a period laying waste to the town!

Incidentally, I entirely agree with you regarding "off-side" FMS's rendering ATG screen defenses of towns highly vulnerable. Personally I can't wait for an "off-side" limitation to FMS's to reduce the directions from which ei can enter a town, and would also like to see a reversion to pre 1.26 "Vietnam" hedgelines heights, ideally combined with extensive internal colliders to prevent light vehicles from crossing them, and to prevent infantry running down the middle of hedgelines.

Edited by fidd

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delems

You all are lost and delusional.

It takes 2 players to run an 88, so already at a disadvantage with population - or with timers if player has 2nd account.

Just try to pull an 88 out after EWS goes off in a town, ei are already at the AB.

The 700m truck EWS gives zero chance for defense to react w/o enemy infantry already in town.

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Kilemall
2 hours ago, drkmouse said:

Not an elephant if the darn spawnlists were done right and there was always sufficient 88s and sappers, the PzJgr I gets in game, and hopefully the STO bombing helps the Stuka lay on it's bombs in that 80% ratio dive bombing should with competent pilots.

getting 88's out when allies  op or even  EVEn, is neer imposilbe as  ei are norly already in  ab  be fore you get out or  ea  are  killing them instant, if they do get out last  about  5 sec less brougth from back towns.. ( so when up   you have ot use  2 acoutns and drive long dist to  use them by tyhen tonw sualy camped or even capped

sappers  can no longe r  kil moving matties it seems, and as   the good  matty drivers  jsut  tool aroun in slow mo mode  killing everythign they are  almost  unkllable.

so atm it is a HUGE  dif  100time s more then the tigre ever was, as  at least  there  are  10 units that can kill a tiger and it canot drive and shoot like the matty.

 

4 88s or whatever silly number they came up with is too low precisely because of the vehicle shed coverage, but consider that the Allies HAVE to stop the 88s from rolling.  That already tells you they fear it.

If the tanks can't be sapped at speed and that changed then that changes the relative value of sappers to tanks and particularly the Matty if it has so few predators against it.  There is NOTHING in any production factory stat or force calc that covers probability of sticking on satchel at speed, it HAS to be calced based on game and coding reality.  So nothing I said is invalid about how the spawnlist needs to be calculated, it's just not being done.

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Kilemall
1 hour ago, delems said:

You all are lost and delusional.

It takes 2 players to run an 88, so already at a disadvantage with population - or with timers if player has 2nd account.

Just try to pull an 88 out after EWS goes off in a town, ei are already at the AB.

The 700m truck EWS gives zero chance for defense to react w/o enemy infantry already in town.

As Axis I tried all the time.  I could not get help whether to cover the vehicle shed whether it was low pop or high.  Axis has given up on the tool.  So without a culture change even if you got all the EWS range you want, won't matter, couldn't get a tow or protection under the best of circumstances.  Only squads that haul them in from neighboring towns and properly guard and scout for them seem to have success.

88's shortcomings should be part of the calc, particularly the soft target and extremely low mobility.  They are sitting ducks where they spawn, that should be part of the equation, and near as I can tell it is NOT.

They should be more expensive then most ATGs, but far cheaper then tanks and should be more numerous then they are last I looked at a Tier 0 spawn.

Edited by Kilemall
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drkmouse
48 minutes ago, Kilemall said:

As Axis I tried all the time.  I could not get help whether to cover the vehicle shed whether it was low pop or high.  Axis has given up on the tool.  So without a culture change even if you got all the EWS range you want, won't matter, couldn't get a tow or protection under the best of circumstances.  Only squads that haul them in from neighboring towns and properly guard and scout for them seem to have success.

88's shortcomings should be part of the calc, particularly the soft target and extremely low mobility.  They are sitting ducks where they spawn, that should be part of the equation, and near as I can tell it is NOT.

They should be more expensive then most ATGs, but far cheaper then tanks and should be more numerous then they are last I looked at a Tier 0 spawn.

andi agreee been a  few maps ago  i waas well enough to run in   tier 0 ans1 ,   spomethign has chamged  major, since then

even when axis  was up  coudl set up a def  against even matteis if you go t ou teialry enough,  that is no more unforualnlty :P

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