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dre21

Ok give me a good reason

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stankyus
18 minutes ago, drkmouse said:

matty had  MAx 20 mm armot  aroundits  top grill... so REALISTIC is needed

stug can  be fronly klls  by EVERYTHING in allied list  but teh  vik and trucks

if u drove  slow and striaght   then   sappers should work like they used to

your  stement  on tiger makes zero sence.  tiger SHUOLD NOT BE  killed by pan

and  that   vuneralbiely has been shown  by severla people,  jsut becuase you have nto seen it does not make it  not there.

 

Top grill is 20mm, put a Sap there and it will blow the engine.  Its also the reason why the F2 is taking out the Matty engines or getting them to smoke white when straffing.

You have not answered what is wrong with the StugB frontal armor... you are over generalizing and not addressing the concern you have.

Ok sapping tanks on the move was NEVER taken away, you still can sap tanks on the move. What was taken away was the sappers ability to place charges while HE is on the move.

Ok, I agree the pan should not kill Tiger tanks - which is exactly what I stated.  I have not seen the several ppl who or even one who has shown a tested repeatable action that you can kill the Tiger with the Pan. That certainly does not mean they have not shown it.  However I would think such a post would have garnered a lot of open discussion on the forums if they had and I probably would not have missed it. So since you know a lot more about these testing reports  by several ppl can you bump the thread so that the RATs can take a look.  It is certainly possible something is wrong. I will post in that thread in support if indeed it shows a vulnerability.  

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OLDZEKE
3 minutes ago, stankyus said:

Top grill is 20mm, put a Sap there and it will blow the engine.  Its also the reason why the F2 is taking out the Matty engines or getting them to smoke white when straffing.

You have not answered what is wrong with the StugB frontal armor... you are over generalizing and not addressing the concern you have.

Ok sapping tanks on the move was NEVER taken away, you still can sap tanks on the move. What was taken away was the sappers ability to place charges while HE is on the move.

Ok, I agree the pan should not kill Tiger tanks - which is exactly what I stated.  I have not seen the several ppl who or even one who has shown a tested repeatable action that you can kill the Tiger with the Pan. That certainly does not mean they have not shown it.  However I would think such a post would have garnered a lot of open discussion on the forums if they had and I probably would not have missed it. So since you know a lot more about these testing reports  by several ppl can you bump the thread so that the RATs can take a look.  It is certainly possible something is wrong. I will post in that thread in support if indeed it shows a vulnerability.  

I have not been able to replicate killing a tiger with the french 25mm gun (Panhard)

Now being many ingame seem to confuse a Daimler with the Panhard maybe that's the issue? Daimler has 40mm gun and the tiger hull, behind the tracks is vulnerable to 40mm at close range with a very near square on shot. 

So I can only assume "pan" is being used to refer to the brit Daimler scout car. 

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OLDZEKE

The area I have boxed in yellow is the radiator cover which is 20mm armor in the data. c27e892f466939336f304f37fd503ce7.png

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stankyus
10 minutes ago, OLDZEKE said:

I have not been able to replicate killing a tiger with the french 25mm gun (Panhard)

Now being many ingame seem to confuse a Daimler with the Panhard maybe that's the issue? Daimler has 40mm gun and the tiger hull, behind the tracks is vulnerable to 40mm at close range with a very near square on shot. 

So I can only assume "pan" is being used to refer to the brit Daimler scout car. 

possibly, however actually killing a Tiger during a live map with a DAC is very very rare. Double tracking  prob accounts for 90% of ingame Dac kill credits.  I have post tread and gun barrel resistance upgrade have achieved IIRC 2 tiger kill credits with the 2pdr. One to double track and one to blowing the Tigers engine with the ATG.  Could never get him to flame up, though I have done that on the Training sever, I have yet to do it during a live map.  The only person I have actually seen flame a Tiger during a map with the DAC was DM79 the last time he played allied as an AEF member. He accounted for 2 of the 4 Tigers kill credits with 2pdrs that map.

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dre21
5 hours ago, Kilemall said:

I swear to high heaven, you guys suck for research.

This is the PzIIIH gun.  Note it SHOULDN'T penetrate the Matty in general, EVER.  The only case would be if it got the APCR round.  It may have got a lucky spall hit hence no effect/no effect/smoke/no effect.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5_cm_KwK_38

Took me a big 5 minutes to work through the early tier gun tools using the WWII pencalc chart.

http://www.wwiiequipment.com/pencalc/

The right answer against the Matty in early tier is already in your faces- the Pak38 gun.

AP round, nothing special, penetrate no problem all day long.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5_cm_Pak_38

 

So try it out, using the angles pencalc shows.

 

Oh, and looks like APCR shouldn't be a Tier 0 thing.

https://panzerworld.com/german-apcr-ammunition

Which we get how many exactly?So still no Armor vs a tier 0 tank. 

I would respond more but I need to leave the house.

 

Edited by dre21
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Kilemall
39 minutes ago, OLDZEKE said:

The area I have boxed in yellow is the radiator cover which is 20mm armor in the data. c27e892f466939336f304f37fd503ce7.png

That shot from superior alt would be easy.  But from even alt ground that slope is serious.

I'm not sure what the angle is, but I'm assuming 20 degree, in which case this armor slope calculator says 20mm at 20 degrees, effective armor is 58mm.  It's almost like it was deliberate design on the part of the Brits, who knew?

https://panzerworld.com/relative-armor-calculator?armor_thickness=20&angle_type=sine&angle_1=20&angle_2=90

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Kilemall
27 minutes ago, dre21 said:

Which we get how many exactly?So still no Armor vs a tier 0 tank. 

I would respond more but I need to leave the house.

 

Pzjgr I with the top end 47mm gun.

Its there at pencalc, 47mm, just run it past the Matties.

That baby would kill Matty flanks at 500m.  As clueless as Matties are in general and especially the arrogant/noob driving/SA, should be pretty easy to get there, just going to be tough in urban environments without inf scouting/protection.  A lot faster to clear the barn of would-be spawn campers, get that baby out of town with one player, and end the reign of terror.

Only been advocating for this for over 10 years, but hey, someday one of you guys will actually pitch harder for it.

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drkmouse
2 hours ago, OLDZEKE said:

By top grill, you are refering to the radiator cover on the rear hull deck.. Correct? If so it is 20mm. 

ty for conferming :D

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drkmouse

"You have not answered what is wrong with the StugB frontal armor... you are over generalizing and not addressing the concern you have."  ( was to skanus)

have said  how many tiems... 

 all  allied euip but the  vik can killa  stug FRONLY onbe shot  out to 1 k atm

( not  the minit  flak not sure on them)

 

Edited by drkmouse

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Kilemall
40 minutes ago, drkmouse said:

You have not answered what is wrong with the StugB frontal armor... you are over generalizing and not addressing the concern you have.

have said  how many tiems... 

 all  allied euip but the  vik can killa  stug FRONLY onbe shot  out to 1 k atm

( not  the minit  flak not sure on them)

Who is this addressed to?

 

Hmm, just quick looksee, 2lber AP is right on that cusp of frontal penetration at 100m, gotta think that's a lotta spall.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ordnance_QF_2-pounder

Pencalc says 2lber frontal at 200m or less, wide open on the flanks.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ordnance_QF_2-pounder

Regarding the French, I'm lifting from a David Lehmann post, who is largely regarded as authoritative in Battle of France matters-

Quote

Main French guns
25mm SA35 L/60 (or 47.2) : about 57mm
37mm SA18 L/21 : about 37mm
37mm SA38 L/33 : about 44mm
47mm SA35 L/32 : about 58mm
47mm SA37 L/53 : about 84mm

Main German guns
3.7cm KwK/PaK L/45 : about 53mm (AP) and 90mm (APCR)
3.7cm KWK L/47.8 : about 55mm
4.7cm PaK(t) : about 78mm
7.5cm KwK/StuK L/2 : about 55mm (APCBC) and 52mm (HEAT)

It gives a good idea of the power of the main guns involved, keeping in mind that the French tanks had a 40-60mm armor and the German tanks had a 13-35mm armor.
In the French tanks and especially the light tanks, there were generally more HE shells than AP shells (3/5th HE shells), illustrating the infantry support role seen as primary task. The French tanks except the 25mm guns and of course the 8mm, 7.5mm and 13.2mm MGs had no tracer shells unlike the German tanks. It was therefore often harder to find the range of a spotted target.
 

The French 25mm I think drops off effectiveness very quickly AND the version in the Panhards is a shorter barrel, so I woudn't get worked up about that valuation.

Note the difference between the tank mounted French short 47 and the ATG/Wacky mounted long 47.

Did the lookup on the StugIIIB against the 57mm/6lber- and ya, it dies like a dog to those.  It's obsolete by Tier 1 except as a supreme ambush tank due to low silhouette.

 

Edited by Kilemall

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stankyus
11 minutes ago, drkmouse said:

You have not answered what is wrong with the StugB frontal armor... you are over generalizing and not addressing the concern you have.

have said  how many tiems... 

 all  allied euip but the  vik can killa  stug FRONLY onbe shot  out to 1 k atm

( not  the minit  flak not sure on them)

 

 Have you tested this claim?  I ask because that is just not what we experience going head on with the StugB...  ever.

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krum
6 minutes ago, stankyus said:

 Have you tested this claim?  I ask because that is just not what we experience going head on with the StugB...  ever.

So far oldzeke presented something close to evidence. Kilemall posted research.links backing stuff and others have posted a circle jerk of this one time in bandcamp.

 

But reading through.the threads it seems to be basically the same people arguing with each other based on anecdotal experience.

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stankyus
1 hour ago, Kilemall said:

That shot from superior alt would be easy.  But from even alt ground that slope is serious.

I'm not sure what the angle is, but I'm assuming 20 degree, in which case this armor slope calculator says 20mm at 20 degrees, effective armor is 58mm.  It's almost like it was deliberate design on the part of the Brits, who knew?

https://panzerworld.com/relative-armor-calculator?armor_thickness=20&angle_type=sine&angle_1=20&angle_2=90

I think the slope is even less than 20^.  I am going out on a limb but .... there is a delta for defection if overmatch is not in play (?) I think that delta starts in the 20^ deflection angle.  IIRC Scotsman posted something about this years ago.  I remember him  also saying that the 6pdr AP rounds at close in shots would shatter at 20^ and not penetrate.  Anyway mb @jwillyhas info on that, he tends to retain that stuff better than I and I could be butchering the whole explanation.

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stankyus
7 minutes ago, krum said:

So far oldzeke presented something close to evidence. Kilemall posted research.links backing stuff and others have posted a circle jerk of this one time in bandcamp.

7

But reading through.the threads it seems to be basically the same people arguing with each other based on anecdotal experience.

Dont think I am following you.

Oldzeke was posting the Ingame Matilda engine cover that is 20mm and is modelled at 20mm which is the correct thickness.

Killemal was posting about the top armor vrs the 15mm AP round and why its able to destroy the Stu.

I was dealing with a list of complaints by drkmouse about many items he listed above as best as I can.... the latest which is the claim that every allied weapon can get through the StugBs frontal armor at 1k with the exception of the Vickers HMG and possibly the 25mm AA gun.  I was simply asking if he tested this. TBH his claim is the very first I have ever heard about the StugBs frontal armor and certainly something I or mb a little presumptious say "we"... but I am so gefawed by the claim I feel comfortable using the word "we".  You know, if something is a concern to me that I feel is wrong with armor or a weapon, I go test it.  I have tested many many things and so far I have found exactly 2 problems that are true that I can remember, both issues where repeatable in testing.  1. Was the frontal armor issue to the CH7 lower where AP and HE from the 75mm on the p4G could kill it at 1500m.  2, was the 20mm on the 232 killing all the crew in the M10 and Achillies frontally without being elevated including the driver and at times exploding the tank - did not matter if it was HE or the AP.  I think it was Stony Me and Asprin tested that one out not so long ago.  That is mb 5% of my testings that proved to be a real issue.  The rest where most likely perceived.  I also did some .50s testing however not controlled. I spent time specifically targeting Axis light armor, in particular the 232 and Pz2C with the P38 to see if I could kill one.  I still target them just to see if I can kill on and since the AP was dropped out, I have yet to have killed a single piece of axis armor with them just in case.

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dre21
2 hours ago, Kilemall said:

Pzjgr I with the top end 47mm gun.

Its there at pencalc, 47mm, just run it past the Matties.

That baby would kill Matty flanks at 500m.  As clueless as Matties are in general and especially the arrogant/noob driving/SA, should be pretty easy to get there, just going to be tough in urban environments without inf scouting/protection.  A lot faster to clear the barn of would-be spawn campers, get that baby out of town with one player, and end the reign of terror.

Only been advocating for this for over 10 years, but hey, someday one of you guys will actually pitch harder for it.

It's not in game period,  I have been after the PNZJGR1 from the get go , but you you have to go way back cough cough been in game since 2001 just to give you a time frame .

So I would say with the uptick with Allied players and having a tier 0 tank that has no equal on the other side , remember why the Achilles and Firefly got put into game , yes I do ! so it was an equal tank vs the Tiger . Odd no equal tank on Axis vs the Matilda and we see how far the map already is in tier 0 /1 .

To my point, time that Allies get their French in the south and Brits in the north no more co-mingling of fractions . And lets see where the chips fall.

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texasjay

That nothing new ,,been like that for age ,,already report ,, gotta wait till they pull their head outta their rear-end when they got time .

As far as I know  a another bug is a ghost Hit  when you shooting at enemy , the ammo goes right thro it...yes et,ea,EDD,and ie  

Tiger die way too easy  by any pop gun ..yea a joke

Too many hit on ET and die easy by one shot , why would anyone want play this game  shooting too many round on  one freaking  tank  and  only take one shot to kill me , no fun

also notice anything closer then 5 feet wont kill anything , try 88 on pan wont kill it next to 88 or tank next to tank _ nothing

this whole thing is a mess , need someone clean it up  asap  and don't let it die for sure if you love this here

 

 

 

 

 

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Kilemall
8 minutes ago, dre21 said:

It's not in game period,  I have been after the PNZJGR1 from the get go , but you you have to go way back cough cough been in game since 2001 just to give you a time frame .

So I would say with the uptick with Allied players and having a tier 0 tank that has no equal on the other side , remember why the Achilles and Firefly got put into game , yes I do ! so it was an equal tank vs the Tiger . Odd no equal tank on Axis vs the Matilda and we see how far the map already is in tier 0 /1 .

To my point, time that Allies get their French in the south and Brits in the north no more co-mingling of fractions . And lets see where the chips fall.

Italians in the South, T1 intro at latest, sounds good.

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stankyus
9 minutes ago, dre21 said:

 

To my point, time that Allies get their French in the south and Brits in the north no more co-mingling of fractions . And lets see where the chips fall.

Why?  So the Axis can put 3/4s  or all their divisions in the South so they can overwhelm the limited limited allied divisions in that area?  The only co-mingling we can have is divisional. Not garrisons which is a problem with overstocking or retaining reinforcements after a capture.

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Kilemall
6 minutes ago, stankyus said:

Why?  So the Axis can put 3/4s  or all their divisions in the South so they can overwhelm the limited limited allied divisions in that area?  The only co-mingling we can have is divisional. Not garrisons which is a problem with overstocking or retaining reinforcements after a capture.

That was ALWAYS the plan, to overwhelm whatever equipment/faction was most vulnerable and undercut the other.  We don't have BEF and ArFr 'virtual chain of command with squads' anymore, but ya

OTOH as I keep saying, if the Rats don't keep spawnlists even EVERY SINGLE TIER EVERY SINGLE COUNTRY then yes Allies have an advantage to cherry pick optimal frontages, and just as importantly Axis can cherry pick the ones that are more vulnerable.

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OLDZEKE

This will be my last reply to this thread. 

I took the time to test 38T against the matty rear radiator cover. With both on flat ground (offline spawn area) The 38T gun is barely above the rear hull top of the matty. Even at point blank range where I could get the best down angle with both on flat ground the angle of round strike was so flat that the round ricochets off. 

 

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Kilemall
1 minute ago, OLDZEKE said:

This will be my last reply to this thread. 

I took the time to test 38T against the matty rear radiator cover. With both on flat ground (offline spawn area) The 38T gun is barely above the rear hull top of the matty. Even at point blank range where I could get the best down angle with both on flat ground the angle of round strike was so flat that the round ricochets off.

That's unfortunate.

Not about the result, but about your last reply.  Game NEEDS informative adults to show facts instead of arguments or frustration.

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OLDZEKE
Just now, Kilemall said:

That's unfortunate.

Not about the result, but about your last reply.  Game NEEDS informative adults to show facts instead of arguments or frustration.

Lol, I'll break my "promise" above to say I'm not replying to this thread again because I do not want to over step my bounds. I deleted 2 paragraphs from that reply... We have rules too, and they have good reason from 20 years of hard painful experience. 

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stankyus
5 minutes ago, OLDZEKE said:

This will be my last reply to this thread. 

I took the time to test 38T against the matty rear radiator cover. With both on flat ground (offline spawn area) The 38T gun is barely above the rear hull top of the matty. Even at point blank range where I could get the best down angle with both on flat ground the angle of round strike was so flat that the round ricochets off. 

 

 

9 minutes ago, Kilemall said:

That was ALWAYS the plan, to overwhelm whatever equipment/faction was most vulnerable and undercut the other.  We don't have BEF and ArFr 'virtual chain of command with squads' anymore, but ya

OTOH as I keep saying, if the Rats don't keep spawnlists even EVERY SINGLE TIER EVERY SINGLE COUNTRY then yes Allies have an advantage to cherry pick optimal frontages, and just as importantly Axis can cherry pick the ones that are more vulnerable.

That is the plan for both sides even now, which is why AOs tend to lean toward how many Brigs are avail or links. However in the game under the proposed, one side can move battalion strength anywhere on the map as reinforcements and in the proposed idea the BEF would not even have the ability to shuttle reinforcements to the South.  

I agree with you about each sides spawnlists have to be even and I hate to say it but closer to Red vrs Blue in capability... IE Tiger vrs Firefly/S76 and later Panther vrs Frefly with APCBC and M36B1 you bet the allies are going to cherry pick the BEF IF the US and French do not get the M36B1 when the Panther enters.  Even now the  US and French should get some APHV ammo  compete with the Tiger at range.  That would help negate the BEF cherry picking in later teirs cause it would not be needed.  

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dre21
47 minutes ago, Kilemall said:

Italians in the South, T1 intro at latest, sounds good.

The Italiens really didn't fight on the western front as you imagine. 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_history_of_Italy_during_World_War_II

The parts where the italiens where most active are not in game .

The little part of Vichy France that the Italiens occupied is not in game either.  

So what are we supposed to do about that, but the other part is dare I say History , you know Brits north and French south. 

And Stankyus you guys got your player pool back . Not Axis players fault if you guys don't want to play one fraction and let that fall to the way side. But I can see why , why would one not sit in a Matilda with really nothing going against it. After all the fun of the game is to see how many end up one ones kill list and the Matilda is very well suited for that in tier0/1.  

So I see the need why it has to be all over the map.

 

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krum
1 hour ago, stankyus said:

Dont think I am following you.

Oldzeke was posting the Ingame Matilda engine cover that is 20mm and is modelled at 20mm which is the correct thickness.

Killemal was posting about the top armor vrs the 15mm AP round and why its able to destroy the Stu.

I was dealing with a list of complaints by drkmouse about many items he listed above as best as I can.... the latest which is the claim that every allied weapon can get through the StugBs frontal armor at 1k with the exception of the Vickers HMG and possibly the 25mm AA gun.  I was simply asking if he tested this. TBH his claim is the very first I have ever heard about the StugBs frontal armor and certainly something I or mb a little presumptious say "we"... but I am so gefawed by the claim I feel comfortable using the word "we".  You know, if something is a concern to me that I feel is wrong with armor or a weapon, I go test it.  I have tested many many things and so far I have found exactly 2 problems that are true that I can remember, both issues where repeatable in testing.  1. Was the frontal armor issue to the CH7 lower where AP and HE from the 75mm on the p4G could kill it at 1500m.  2, was the 20mm on the 232 killing all the crew in the M10 and Achillies frontally without being elevated including the driver and at times exploding the tank - did not matter if it was HE or the AP.  I think it was Stony Me and Asprin tested that one out not so long ago.  That is mb 5% of my testings that proved to be a real issue.  The rest where most likely perceived.  I also did some .50s testing however not controlled. I spent time specifically targeting Axis light armor, in particular the 232 and Pz2C with the P38 to see if I could kill one.  I still target them just to see if I can kill on and since the AP was dropped out, I have yet to have killed a single piece of axis armor with them just in case.

I think you misunderstood what I was pointing out.

I was merely pointing out that there was some people yourself included that posted facts or asked for the proof to support the arguments. 

 

I'm all for fixing bugs and whatnot just not because someone had something happen to them once or are just putting rounds through empty space and not getting a kill.... This isn't a hitpoint game x hits anywhere do y damage.

Training server get a friend film results.

Post video.

But I don't know why I'm getting involved because I can't play ground to save my life.

 

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