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dre21

Ok give me a good reason

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jwilly
On 7/29/2020 at 7:00 AM, BMBM said:

Look at the total Matilda numbers for reference, not just BOF. Already by autumn 1940 numbers were heading way up. Had the Brits not been kicked off the continent those numbers would have deployed.

Yes, they would have deployed...to where they actually all went, i.e. North Africa and Russia...or the Allied side would have lost there too. Which would have been very bad on multiple levels.

But it's an interesting argumentation-direction:

If the French hadn't been defeated in June, what would their production and fielded-tank numbers have been like by the end of 1940?

Well, the B tank purchase order called for Renault to deliver about 40 B1 tanks a month, which production shifting to the ter model starting in November. 

Production of the S35 was to shift to the S40 as of the 451st unit to be built, and 430 had been built as of June 1, 1940. The purchase order backlog was 270 at that point, but another purchase order for several hundred was certain. The production rate was ~40 tanks a month. So considering the certainty of combat losses in the meantime, the French S tank force likely would have been majority the -40 model by the end of the year.

Production of the Panhard armored car 178 model was in the process of switching entirely to the revised-turret 47mm-gun model.

Production of the Panhard armored car 201 model was to begin in the early Fall.

Production of the R tank had shifted to the -40 model some time before. The R tank force would be majority the R40 model by the end of the year.

Production of the SAu40 tank destroyer with the SAMle1937 long 47mm gun was to begin in October, reaching ten per month in November.

Production of the ARL V39/40 assault vehicle with the SAMle 1929 medium 75mm gun was to begin in October, reaching ten per month in November.

Production of the Lorraine 38L APC had ceased, and was about to switch over to the 39L APC. I think the 37L supply tractor's purchase order had been completed, but it remained on the production line pending the next P.O.

Hotchkiss was about to receive a P.O. for light halftracks with naval-mount dual 13.2mm AA guns.

Brandt had delivered 150,000 units to Army warehouses of his 50mm HEAT rifle grenade, and the various rifle firing adapters and special cartridges for it.

And, Brandt had finally convinced the Army in early May to greenlight his 75/58mm APDS shell for the towed 75mm gun that still made up the majority of French infantry AT capability, after proving to them that they had arranged sufficient tungsten carbide supplies for the large purchase order numbers he was suggesting.

Brandt also had developed an effective HEAT shell for the 75mm gun, along with a powerful 80mm HEAT RG to be fired from the Hotchkiss 13.2mm AA HMG in single shot mode. Those were Brandt's next sales efforts with the Army. The latter round might have entailed Army adoption of a proposed infantry-mobile 13.2mm HMG on a light cross country carriage to be pulled by two men or a pack animal...which if adopted would have given French infantry significantly more infantry-organic AA capability than any other 1940 army.

Quote

History or alt-history, what’s it gonna be?

Old CRS used to say that history only ruled up to May 10, and game events determined after that. Of course, that wasn't what they actually implemented...they coded-in the gradual defeat and disappearance of the French after T0 except in name. Meanwhile they made the Germans as they were historically, even though a protracted BoF would have made it impossible for the Germans to invade the Balkans, Crete or Russia, or save the Italians in Greece, or extract BoF-experienced but low-loss cadres for the next expansion of the Wehrmacht; and they modeled the British as they were after Dunkirk and related defeats, with no holdover of old stuff and a rapid succession of new equipment, even though the BEF defeat leading to Dunkirk never happens in-game.

My view is that it should be History up to May 10, then the Alt-History for which there's best evidence thereafter depending on game events...as determined by CRS...and for all the BoF participants.

Edited by jwilly
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drkmouse
1 hour ago, BMBM said:

The Pzj I will be added in due time, just like the Marders and possibly the Bison and other open-topped vehicles so that the Axis may also fully enjoy being sniped from above and behind.

When you can nade  the m10 crew again then you can snipe teh aixs  pz1 ;)

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goreblimey
51 minutes ago, drkmouse said:

When you can nade  the m10 crew again then you can snipe teh aixs  pz1 ;)

Is that like the holes in the front of the stug b that you can see thru but can't shoot thru when the gun is deployed?

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drkmouse

cdanot nade  kill  m1 crew not evn sure if u can   shoot  them

so what is your point?

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fidd
13 hours ago, jwilly said:

Yes, they would have deployed...to where they actually all went, i.e. North Africa and Russia...or the Allied side would have lost there too. Which would have been very bad on multiple levels.

But it's an interesting argumentation-direction:

If the French hadn't been defeated in June, what would their production and fielded-tank numbers have been like by the end of 1940?

Well, the B tank purchase order called for Renault to deliver about 40 B1 tanks a month, which production shifting to the ter model starting in November. 

Production of the S35 was to shift to the S40 as of the 451st unit to be built, and 430 had been built as of June 1, 1940. The purchase order backlog was 270 at that point, but another purchase order for several hundred was certain. The production rate was ~40 tanks a month. So considering the certainty of combat losses in the meantime, the French S tank force likely would have been majority the -40 model by the end of the year.

Production of the Panhard armored car 178 model was in the process of switching entirely to the revised-turret 47mm-gun model.

Production of the Panhard armored car 201 model was to begin in the early Fall.

Production of the R tank had shifted to the -40 model some time before. The R tank force would be majority the R40 model by the end of the year.

Production of the SAu40 tank destroyer with the SAMle1937 long 47mm gun was to begin in October, reaching ten per month in November.

Production of the ARL V39/40 assault vehicle with the SAMle 1929 medium 75mm gun was to begin in October, reaching ten per month in November.

Production of the Lorraine 38L APC had ceased, and was about to switch over to the 39L APC. I think the 37L supply tractor's purchase order had been completed, but it remained on the production line pending the next P.O.

Hotchkiss was about to receive a P.O. for light halftracks with naval-mount dual 13.2mm AA guns.

Brandt had delivered 150,000 units to Army warehouses of his 50mm HEAT rifle grenade, and the various rifle firing adapters and special cartridges for it.

And, Brandt had finally convinced the Army in early May to greenlight his 75/58mm APDS shell for the towed 75mm gun that still made up the majority of French infantry AT capability, after proving to them that they had arranged sufficient tungsten carbide supplies for the large purchase order numbers he was suggesting.

Brandt also had developed an effective HEAT shell for the 75mm gun, along with a powerful 80mm HEAT RG to be fired from the Hotchkiss 13.2mm AA HMG in single shot mode. Those were Brandt's next sales efforts with the Army. The latter round might have entailed Army adoption of a proposed infantry-mobile 13.2mm HMG on a light cross country carriage to be pulled by two men or a pack animal...which if adopted would have given French infantry significantly more infantry-organic AA capability than any other 1940 army.

Old CRS used to say that history only ruled up to May 10, and game events determined after that. Of course, that wasn't what they actually implemented...they coded-in the gradual defeat and disappearance of the French after T0 except in name. Meanwhile they made the Germans as they were historically, even though a protracted BoF would have made it impossible for the Germans to invade the Balkans, Crete or Russia, or save the Italians in Greece, or extract BoF-experienced but low-loss cadres for the next expansion of the Wehrmacht; and they modeled the British as they were after Dunkirk and related defeats, with no holdover of old stuff and a rapid succession of new equipment, even though the BEF defeat leading to Dunkirk never happens in-game.

My view is that it should be History up to May 10, then the Alt-History for which there's best evidence thereafter depending on game events...as determined by CRS...and for all the BoF participants.

I couldn't disagree more with this, ('that post May 10th alt history should apply'). It seems to me that this was CRS1.0 "rationalising a necessity as a virtue", to maximise the use of American kit gradually into the Arfr, when they lacked the ability to develop a full-set of US kit to make them a competitive nation in their own right, in time for tier 3-4 or so. This way they could add US kit to the Arfr and only introduce the US as a player nationality once a critical mass of US kit had been devved.

Now that the US has achieved that critical mass, the Arfr should be got rid of in tier 2 or so, and the US and Canadians replace them, until a Free French unit based on LeClerc's division modelled, changing to British battle-dress for the infantry and US vehicles. 

As soon as one starts moving away from the actual history, all manner of dubious and unintended weirdness starts. Now that the need for the fiction of post June '40 Arfr can be safely dispensed with - the reason for it has gone - the amount of said weirdness can likewise diminish.

By the logic of the "post june 1940 alt history", one should have KV1's and T34's etc in abundance in UK, Arfr and US lists representing the as yet unmodelled Eastern front. That is self-evidently nonsense, but no more nonsensical that trying to artificially extend the life of the Arfr with US years before any such aid occurred.

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tater

Sorry, @fidd, I usually agree with a lot of what you have to say, but not here, not at all.

WW2OL allows for the counterfactual history where France does not fall. Definitionally if the Germans don't roll the map during Tier 0 we're in fantasyland. If they do we only need more stuff for Tier-0, nothing else is needed.

As a result there is no such thing as the "Free French" in ww2ol at all, not ever, the Allies have to first lose the map for the Free French to be a thing.

The French should first get everything they had on order in 1940, and all then all their plans that we know of going forward (adoption of the MAS 40, etc) should happen. Past that it should literally be made up IMO—using things that existed or were on the drawing board.

Obvious improvements to existing vehicles are a no-brainer as well. The Germans added spaced armor, for example, the French might copy this. Everyone upgunned tanks, the French would do that, too. The UK got US stuff, so France would as well, no doubt.

Edited by tater

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jwilly

CRS certainly could make a different game that begins after the Germans have defeated the French and British in 1940. That game could have the England-based Free French in it, using British and US weapons and uniforms. Maybe it could start at D-Day. 

Or, they could make a different game with the Germans against the USSR. No doubt there'd be lots of T34s and KV1s.

Old CRS told us that this game begins May 10, 1940, though. No Free French here. Just France and Britain, and later the US, against Germany.

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Kilemall
1 hour ago, tater said:

Sorry, @fidd, I usually agree with a lot of what you have to say, but not here, not at all.

WW2OL allows for the counterfactual history where France does not fall. Definitionally if the Germans don't roll the map during Tier 0 we're in fantasyland. If they do we only need more stuff for Tier-0, nothing else is needed.

As a result there is no such thing as the "Free French" in ww2ol at all, not ever, the Allies have to first lose the map for the Free French to be a thing.

The French should first get everything they had on order in 1940, and all then all their plans that we know of going forward (adoption of the MAS 40, etc) should happen. Past that it should literally be made up IMO—using things that existed or were on the drawing board.

Obvious improvements to existing vehicles are a no-brainer as well. The Germans added spaced armor, for example, the French might copy this. Everyone upgunned tanks, the French would do that, too. The UK got US stuff, so France would as well, no doubt.

Whew, no I wouldn't go there, that's secret rocketpacks and flying saucers of the Luftwaffe territory.

Definite functional drawn and/or ordered stuff ya, speculative no.

Edited by Kilemall

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Kilemall
35 minutes ago, jwilly said:

CRS certainly could make a different game that begins after the Germans have defeated the French and British in 1940. That game could have the England-based Free French in it, using British and US weapons and uniforms. Maybe it could start at D-Day. 

Or, they could make a different game with the Germans against the USSR. No doubt there'd be lots of T34s and KV1s.

Old CRS told us that this game begins May 10, 1940, though. No Free French here. Just France and Britain, and later the US, against Germany.

AND doesn't involve capture of the capitals or or direct political capitulation, but DOES involve capture of major industrial areas that would cripple the war effort of the loser of those areas and presumably at least force a truce and peace terms on the victor's condition.

NOT total war as it was practiced in RL.  That's an important distinction too.

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tater
44 minutes ago, Kilemall said:

Whew, no I wouldn't go there, that's secret rocketpacks and flying saucers of the Luftwaffe territory.

Definite functional drawn and/or ordered stuff ya, speculative no.

The ordered stuff is obviously what France actually planned, so that needs to be a thing.

I'd hardly call taking an existing vehicle (or an an "existing" planned vehicle) getting upgunned a "flying saucer."

Course it has to be within the limits of the possible. Clearly a Sherm could fit a larger gun, but French turrets might not have been able to do so if they were too small.

Spaced armor, etc? That's field mod level stuff, also not a flying saucer sort of change. Cheek guns on small bombers fits there, along with gun noses instead of perspex (or sometimes through the perspex, which was then painted over). (can you tell I want Pappy Gunn stuff?)

S40 turret:

1951754_original.jpg

1147570-13385-46-pristine.jpg

 

There were also plans for a 3 man turret, and apparently the Japanese wanted to purchase the S40 with that arrangement (after France was controlled by the Germans).

Edited by tater

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jwilly
25 minutes ago, Kilemall said:

Definite functional drawn and/or ordered stuff ya, speculative no.

The (partial, ground only) list I provided above is mostly next-model-evolved-from-the-current-model weapons/vehicles for which same-year purchase orders had been issued...just months from being in production.

A few items didn't yet have purchase orders issued, but prototypes existed and we have photographs and test reports. 

Some of the items on the list were already in production, and were used in the June 1940 fighting. They're no more "rocketpacks" stuff than various German weapons that are already in-game, or clearly eligible to be.

I don't see that it veers into "Secret Weapons of the Luftwaffe" territory to model scheduled-1940-production, slightly-evolved-from-existing-stuff weapons and vehicles.

Sure, French weapons beyond 1940-41 would be more speculative. Maybe the G tank would have been ahead of its time, or maybe it would have been underpowered and poorly built. Maybe the up-engined D520 would have performed like a Mustang but considerably earlier, or maybe it would have been unflyable or just never made it into production.

But the proposal above didn't go there. 

 

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Kilemall
51 minutes ago, jwilly said:

The (partial, ground only) list I provided above is mostly next-model-evolved-from-the-current-model weapons/vehicles for which same-year purchase orders had been issued...just months from being in production.

A few items didn't yet have purchase orders issued, but prototypes existed and we have photographs and test reports. 

Some of the items on the list were already in production, and were used in the June 1940 fighting. They're no more "rocketpacks" stuff than various German weapons that are already in-game, or clearly eligible to be.

I don't see that it veers into "Secret Weapons of the Luftwaffe" territory to model scheduled-1940-production, slightly-evolved-from-existing-stuff weapons and vehicles.

Sure, French weapons beyond 1940-41 would be more speculative. Maybe the G tank would have been ahead of its time, or maybe it would have been underpowered and poorly built. Maybe the up-engined D520 would have performed like a Mustang but considerably earlier, or maybe it would have been unflyable or just never made it into production.

But the proposal above didn't go there. 

 

You weren't going over my line, Tater was with the spaced armor and other speculative items.

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jwilly
1 hour ago, tater said:

There were also plans for a 3 man turret

But...mindful of Kilemall's point...not in late 1940, and not subject to a purchase order with a production schedule.

The three man turret is speculation for us, because it hadn't been documented yet...only conjectured and conceived. It was wanted by the designers (if not yet by the Cavalry customers, who were still catching up to tank theory), but not yet engineered.

And, I don't think any of the speculation addresses how the necessary increase to the turret ring diameter would have been accomplished without substantial changes to the hull width, which would have blocked rail transport, which would have been an impossible limitation.

Much the same as the G tank. We have speculative illustrations of the tank based on the (likely design competition winner) Renault's G1R design, with details filled in by the technical artist based on concepts at the time plus postwar guesstimates of what the design would have been. The drawings look great. But, what would the reality have been? 

It's a lot like the German E50 tank. Might have been highly effective, might not.

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tater
41 minutes ago, jwilly said:

The (partial, ground only) list I provided above is mostly next-model-evolved-from-the-current-model weapons/vehicles for which same-year purchase orders had been issued...just months from being in production.

This is exactly what needs to be done for the French.

They'll still have problems later tiers, but it really is required, and in the list you made above, it's not even an extrapolation, it's finished designs actually ordered. It's no different than giving them aircraft they bought from the US, but didn't receive before the fall of France.

 

7 minutes ago, Kilemall said:

You weren't going over my line, Tater was with the spaced armor and other speculative items.

People on this forum seem to entirely disregard conditional language.

I said the French MIGHT have done likewise faced with comparable threats. It's interesting to note that the Germans added spaced armor before D-Day. Why? Because the CCCP. So the Germans get weapons that in the West are in fact counterfactual, since they are a response to a threat that simply did not exist on the western front (since after 1940 there wasn't one until 1944).

Upgunning—to the extent it is possible in a 2 man turret—is something that goes beyond might I'd expect, as pretty much everyone did this. If not as a tank, then as a TD based on the same hull? (as was in the list above, the SAu40).

The counterfactual nature of ww2ol is in fact a mess.

All weapon systems existed in a context. The rules for inclusion are such that the side that faced the most variation in enemy capability, doctrine, and logistics has the widest array of weapons to actually chose from. We of course lack most of the context.

Large numbers of "good enough" work under the assumption of "large numbers." The US ended the war having had/made ~99,000 tanks/TD/SPGs. Germany made half that (which is still a lot). UK made 27,500 (not counting nearly 70k UCs (blink)). Not saying that the spawn lists need to reflect this necessarily, but 1 v 1 matchups are maybe an unfair comparison when the real odds would rarely have been 1v1. Counterfactuals are always gonna be complicated.

 

 

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tater
23 minutes ago, jwilly said:

But...mindful of Kilemall's point...not in late 1940, and not subject to a purchase order with a production schedule.

True, but for later tiers, what? We fake France into the nonexistent (in ww2ol) "Free French?"

By definition there can never be "Free French" in ww2ol. What tier comes "after France loses, and the map resets"?

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jwilly
10 minutes ago, tater said:

True, but for later tiers, what?

That's an interesting argument to contemplate maybe discussing after we get the French, Germans and British sorted out for 1940-41 "documented-would-have-been" history...as opposed to "what if".

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stankyus
20 hours ago, Kilemall said:

Anytime TDs come up, if it isn't a fully roofed Jagdpanther/Jagdtiger/Jagdpanzer IV, it's talked down.  Hetzers are also talked down, but a little more reasonably since they basically only bring cheap small hull ambush to the party, kind of similar to why the Chaffee is not a big must have. 

BAH!!!  The Chaffee is something I want big time.  Fast, small, good gun, and the tank might not have much armor but its very sloped. Its going to be a Stu on Steroids... Apart from ammo count... it can get into areas no other tanks but  the R35 and Pz2 can go.  I see it like the P3L is to the PzH. 

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tater
25 minutes ago, jwilly said:

That's an interesting argument to contemplate maybe discussing after we get the French, Germans and British sorted out for 1940-41 "documented-would-have-been" history...as opposed to "what if".

I agree that before any speculative, "only drawings and wood mockups" stuff gets even contemplated the low-hanging fruit of "actually procured, but France fell before it hit the front" is the next thing to add for France.

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fidd
3 hours ago, tater said:

Sorry, @fidd, I usually agree with a lot of what you have to say, but not here, not at all.

WW2OL allows for the counterfactual history where France does not fall. Definitionally if the Germans don't roll the map during Tier 0 we're in fantasyland. If they do we only need more stuff for Tier-0, nothing else is needed.

As a result there is no such thing as the "Free French" in ww2ol at all, not ever, the Allies have to first lose the map for the Free French to be a thing.

The French should first get everything they had on order in 1940, and all then all their plans that we know of going forward (adoption of the MAS 40, etc) should happen. Past that it should literally be made up IMO—using things that existed or were on the drawing board.

Obvious improvements to existing vehicles are a no-brainer as well. The Germans added spaced armor, for example, the French might copy this. Everyone upgunned tanks, the French would do that, too. The UK got US stuff, so France would as well, no doubt.

You don't think I realise that??? Of course, if the Germans fail to conquer France it all gets "counter-factual". That's missing the point, imho, which is that the further one moves from the factual, the more nonsensical it all becomes. If I had my way, campaigns would form what we now call tiers, and fought on different maps, as the game was originally intended. So you'd have a Normandy map, an Eastern Front map, North Africa and so on, with the "counterfactual" aspect arising out of results from each map (what we currently call a "campaign".) So, if the BEF and French defeat Germany on the 1st "May '40" map, it's a simple Allied victory, but if the Germans win, it moves to North Africa, it becomes possible, in the event of an allied win, to play the Italy map. Intersposed between these, would be maps covering the advance to near Moscow by the Germans, then a map covering up until Kursk and so on. In the event of the Soviets being defeated, that pretty much would result in an  Axis win, as there would not have been a hope in hell of D-Day succeeding against the full German order of battle.

Now, none of that is going to happen. I realise that, but the further we depart from the historical context, the worse problems we experience in game with TOE's that have to be massaged via highly contrived mechanisms to keep the French present and competitive. Far better to ditch them in favour of the US and Canadians, and given the limitations of playing on a single map of only a small part of France, replace them as set out above. It's not ideal, but it's better than what we currently have.

 

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jwilly
55 minutes ago, fidd said:

Far better to ditch them in favour of the US and Canadians, and given the limitations of playing on a single map of only a small part of France, replace them as set out above.

That, to me, would be a non-believable conflict with what history indicates would have been.

Yes, beyond 1941 the French weapons and vehicles require game-design consideration. I think it'd be entirely plausible to suppose that they might have decided building the G tank and their own advanced aircraft would be too expensive and politically fraught, and they would have bought US products instead in some categories, as they already had started to do in 1939.

But having the French Army and Air Force just disappear from France? That'd be pure hocus-pocus. That degree of fantasyland wouldn't be interesting to me.

Edited by jwilly

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tater

The horse is already out of the barn.

I don't see the tier thing ever changing, it's more fun to have new eqp come out.

I can't see any possible reason to be against actually ordered French eqp that failed to see combat simply because they lost first. Prototypes made, design finalized and accepted, orders placed.

The numbers and rate of introduction? That becomes a balance issue, just like I think the MAS 40 should certainly become the standard infantry weapon of ArFr, with adoption slowly replacing MAS 36 tier by tier until the large majority of rifles are MAS 40. I'd do the same for the S40.

The reality is that in many cases the war was fought with equipment designed before the war. The Germans and Japanese innovated a lot—because they were losing.

The Allies tended to fire for effect with what they had, with some experience-motivated modifications to those designs. Change canopy on planes, or props. Add ordnance hardpoints. For tanks, upgun them if possible. Use existing chassis as gun platforms if the turret won't fit anything big enough.

Those are trivial counterfactuals for France.

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zippy

I was trying not to reply to this thread cuz I know I'll immediately /thread with my first reply, but you guys leave me no choice...

I'll give OP a reason

 

If you guys are depressed after that, do not worry, I gotchu fam!

Good vibes my bros!

Edited by zippy
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N8
5 minutes ago, zippy said:

 

Good vibes my bros!

Lmao, I love this video

 

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krum

More of zippy please that's proper old school forum posting

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Kilemall
5 hours ago, stankyus said:

BAH!!!  The Chaffee is something I want big time.  Fast, small, good gun, and the tank might not have much armor but its very sloped. Its going to be a Stu on Steroids... Apart from ammo count... it can get into areas no other tanks but  the R35 and Pz2 can go.  I see it like the P3L is to the PzH. 

Everyone should get toys for their style, including Pumaboys, Jagdpanthers like me, E8s, funnies, etc.

But you have to admit the Panther and Pershing and Tiger II is kinda farther up the priority scale both in iconography and new ability.

And PzJgr I.  Dammit.

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