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delems

For some reason, there are no trawlers at AntC deep water port?

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tater
18 minutes ago, delems said:

Confirm, does seem to list starboard.  Or the view is off.

I was steaming alongside jokur who noticed the list, and the black strakes on the RN trawler make it obvious. The one on the starboard side was clearly closer to the water.

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tater

That quad 2lber is super effective vs aircraft.

The deck gun... what does it take to sink a trawler? I had most all my guns taken out (crew killed), but kept fighting. Like most naval units in ww2ol it seems to float until it doesn't. A DM with more complexity would be pretty welcome. Driving the thing into a fight (which I did) where there were some enemy ships, and a ton of air... really shows how necessary every single gun manned would be. Shooting quad at a plane, another comes and kills the quad—maybe another AA gun firing would have messed up his aim.

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jwilly
1 hour ago, delems said:

Confirm, does seem to list starboard.  Or the view is off.

Check the video of AA gunfire provided before release...the list was visible there in misalignment of the gunsight with the horizon.

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jwilly
47 minutes ago, tater said:

what does it take to sink a trawler?

No watertight compartmentalization, but also few flammables on board. Typically coal burning small steam boiler with expansion engine low in the hull, so no significant ship threatening fire risk in the propulsion spaces. Not a lot of topside weight for its beam i.e. lots of excess stabiity, so capsize risk is minimal. With good pumps and a reasonably diligent crew, it could survive a lot of holes near the waterline, and pretty much ignore superstructure damage. Torpedoes and aerial bombs would be likely to cause major structural failure, though.

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foe2
5 hours ago, delems said:

Ok, couple issues so far:  Otherwise, love the Flakverling.
1) Unable to ride with j,

2) When multi-crew, first player gets no AA ??   This is huge issue, need both players able to run some AA guns.

3) Needs to be at all ports, to slow to travel from just deep ports.  Guessing trawlers small enough to dock at most any port?

on the live stream @BMBM said:

1) that the trawlers weren't boardable via the board command, but you can get on deck as you found

3) that he wants add a new port between the deep water and the one we have in game. however it didn't make it for this patch.  There is no way most  European rivers can could have a trawler in them. (frankly the Fairmile is to big but that's another discussion) 

 

one point 2 that is something that should looked in I feel. 

 

 

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stankyus
24 minutes ago, foe2 said:

on the live stream @BMBM said:

1) that the trawlers weren't boardable via the board command, but you can get on deck as you found

3) that he wants add a new port between the deep water and the one we have in game. however it didn't make it for this patch.  There is no way most  European rivers can could have a trawler in them. (frankly the Fairmile is to big but that's another discussion) 

 

one point 2 that is something that should looked in I feel. 

 

 

Good answer 

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Scotsman
5 hours ago, tater said:

That quad 2lber is super effective vs aircraft.

The deck gun... what does it take to sink a trawler? I had most all my guns taken out (crew killed), but kept fighting. Like most naval units in ww2ol it seems to float until it doesn't. A DM with more complexity would be pretty welcome. Driving the thing into a fight (which I did) where there were some enemy ships, and a ton of air... really shows how necessary every single gun manned would be. Shooting quad at a plane, another comes and kills the quad—maybe another AA gun firing would have messed up his aim.

*soon*

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sideout

This trawler should be pretty bad azz against ea! thats a long drive though to get them in action.

too bad you couldnt spawn a boat, drive it to wherever and dock it, and it stays there for you.

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BMBM

We corrected the list but it may not have made it into this release.

Third type of port is being discussed.

MC positions was changed at the last minute, as it was felt that the two oerlikon positions would not be enough for crew 2. This may change.

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foe2

@BMBM  it looks great generally and I'm impressed by both the Pom Pom and the Flakvierling.   some serious fire power.  

 

one minor quibble and you are going to hate me for this. the British trawler as a HMT should be flying the white ensign rather than the red as its a commissioned RN vessel.  

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N8
6 hours ago, tater said:

what does it take to sink a trawler?

One M10 shot to it, and all crew members are dead.

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tater
4 minutes ago, N8 said:

One M10 shot to it, and all crew members are dead.

Interesting.

I got strafed and serially lost my guns except one 20mm, and the deck gun. Then a DD came up, and boom, 1 shot. Didn't show sinking when I despawned, maybe all crew dead?

In general the DM seems...

It needs to have more information. A lot more for me driving it (how many hits, and where, at least roughly, if the pumps are running (shipping water), etc. Even an animation for pumped water shooting out someplace you can see as an indicator would work.

Since I got in a duel with another trawler, there's like no visible damage until they settle. The really need a damage state. Multiple damage states.

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N8
Posted (edited)
30 minutes ago, tater said:

Interesting.

I got strafed and serially lost my guns except one 20mm, and the deck gun. Then a DD came up, and boom, 1 shot. Didn't show sinking when I despawned, maybe all crew dead?

In general the DM seems...

It needs to have more information. A lot more for me driving it (how many hits, and where, at least roughly, if the pumps are running (shipping water), etc. Even an animation for pumped water shooting out someplace you can see as an indicator would work.

Since I got in a duel with another trawler, there's like no visible damage until they settle. The really need a damage state. Multiple damage states.

Agree, 110%.

I bet trawlers have thin armor - I'm betting it'll be a one shot with a Firefly and Tiger if an M10 can one shot it, right?

Let's see if they update the trawlers armor in the future, too thin atm.

I know it is supposed to be a TT support ship, but needs a little bit more armor, so it can actually outlive some rounds from a DD or tanks.

Edited by N8

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tater
2 minutes ago, N8 said:

Agree, 110%.

I bet trawlers have thin armor - I'm betting it'll be a one shot with a Firefly and Tiger if an M10 can one shot it, right?

Let's see if they update the trawlers armor in the future, too thin atm.

I know it is supposed to be a TT support ship, but needs a little bit more armor, so it can actually outlive some rounds from a DD or tanks.

They were not armored, per se.

Depending on the range, large guns might have rounds go in one side, out the other. They seem simultaneously very tough, and not tough enough—that's largely a function of lack of information. We get all the red crew injury information (odd we don't get that detail as inf), but nothing about ship systems, they just cease working.

 

Another observation of playing (sorry, haven't driven boats around much in ww2ol). The lack of sea conditions is a real problem for the naval game in general. When I get shot at, my view goes all wobbly (OK, whatever), but otherwise my platform is very stable. We need swells. Firing a deck gun at another ship is harder and harder the smaller the vessel is. On something like a Fairmile or a Trawler, the difference between when you fire relative to the roll is huge, it probbaly often grossly exceeds the gun elevation and you could keep the gun level, and fire on the roll alone.

From a gameplay standpoint, concentrating on smaller ships is a great idea, but the terrain of the sea really, really matters. We in effect have a naval tank game, with dead flat, featureless terrain. That really needs to change, it will make these smaller craft more survivable vs each other, and shorten engagement ranges.

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greyman

Not so much a feedback post about the new trawler as one about the new quad-pompom. Most of my information that follows comes from the official manual: BR 847 Handbook for 2-pdr. Q.F. Mark VIII Gun on Marks VII and VII* P Mountings.

  1. Dispersion: I have no group-size figures for the 2pdr on any mounting, but dispersion seems insanely low – to the point of being almost non-existent.
     
  2. Mount Speeds: The mounting in-game seems to have a rotation speed of 60 degrees per second. This is much too fast. The real Mk.VII* mounting (powered version) had a rotation speed of 25 degrees per second. The elevation speed seems about right (perhaps a bit slow, this was tough to measure) -- the real Mk.VII* mounting elevating at the same 25 degrees per second.

    The un-powered Mk.VII mounting (which would probably be more appropriate for a trawler) trained and elevated 4.5 degrees with every revolution of the handles. If we gave the gunners a 'crank speed' of 4 per second that would give the unpowered mounting 18 degrees per second.
     
  3. Rate of Fire: Figures given for the Mk.VIII gun are 115 rounds/minute in automatic fire and 96-98 rounds/minute in controlled fire. The game looks to use the former figure which is incorrect -- when used in quadruple mounts the rate of fire and sequence of fire was controlled by cams on a revolving shaft on the mounting.

     [ 1 ] [ 2 ]
     [
    3 ] [ 4 ]

    The guns are numbered as above (from the gunner's point of view, behind). The firing sequence is 1 + 4, then 2 + 3, then 1 + 4, etc. IE: firing in pars, diagonally.
     
  4. Cosine Sight: I'm sure BMBM wouldn't claim these are anything but a quick-eyeball-job for expediency's sake -- but we should have something that looks more the mockup below.

    What we have now:
    FvSZmoU.jpg

    My quick mockup of the 2-pdr. Cosine Sight:
    3S1zxzp.jpg

    If someone could let me know exactly how long the game's 2-pdr HV round takes to travel 1,500 yards I could provide a closer approximation of the sight's appearance (re: the angle the rings subtend to the gunner's eye).

    For what it's worth here's a diagram from the manual:
    zVg1Taa.jpg

    Also the foresight and rear sight don't seem to line up properly with the player's eye.
     
  5. Ammunition Magazine / Display: The ammunition display seems to be a bit buggy -- a full 112-round tray displaying as 8 rounds and counting down from there. IE: after firing 8 rounds the display shows '112', and you reload once you count back down to '8'.

    On that note -- although the Mk.VII mounting's trays held 100 rounds per gun -- the gunners could continually clip more ammunition (supplied in 14-round belts) onto the belt being fed into each gun, so pausing to reload shouldn't really be necessary.

     
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jwilly
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, greyman said:

Mount Speeds: The mounting in-game seems to have a rotation speed of 60 degrees per second. This is much too fast. The real Mk.VII* mounting (powered version) had a rotation speed of 25 degrees per second. The elevation speed seems about right (perhaps a bit slow, this was tough to measure) -- the real Mk.VII* mounting elevating at the same 25 degrees per second.

Probably too fast, but FWIW lots of other gun/turret rotations in-game are too fast or too slow as well. Maybe this is an area that CRS decided to bend realism as they deemed suitable for gameplay? That bending of realism might have consisted of modeling the gun mount parameters per the late war 11-ton-with-guns power mount Mark VII*P, which I think had faster rotation. I doubt if any Mark VII*Ps were ever mounted to trawlers, though. More likely trawlers got hand-crank mounts that had been displaced from larger warships to which the latest guns were installed while those warships were in yard for something else.

Quote

The un-powered Mk.VII mounting (which would probably be more appropriate for a trawler) trained and elevated 4.5 degrees with every revolution of the handles. If we gave the gunners a 'crank speed' of 4 per second that would give the unpowered mounting 18 degrees per second.

Navweaps.com has the unpowered spec at 15 degrees/second, but yes, the game gun mount probably is assumed to be a power type.

Quote

Rate of Fire: Figures given for the Mk.VIII gun are 115 rounds/minute in automatic fire and 96-98 rounds/minute in controlled fire. The game looks to use the former figure which is incorrect -- when used in quadruple mounts the rate of fire and sequence of fire was controlled by cams on a revolving shaft on the mounting.

 [ 1 ] [ 2 ]
 [
3 ] [ 4 ]

The guns are numbered as above (from the gunner's point of view, behind). The firing sequence is 1 + 4, then 2 + 3, then 1 + 4, etc. IE: firing in pars, diagonally.

The hand cranked ("controlled") ROF depended on the cranker.

Again, the gun may well be modeled as a powered mount.

Quote

Cosine Sight: I'm sure BMBM wouldn't claim these are anything but a quick-eyeball-job for expediency's sake -- but we should have something that looks more the mockup below.

What we have now:
FvSZmoU.jpg

My quick mockup of the 2-pdr. Cosine Sight:
3S1zxzp.jpg

For what it's worth here's a diagram from the manual:
zVg1Taa.jpg

IMO all sights should be calibrated to actually work. 

Quote

If someone could let me know exactly how long the game's 2-pdr HV round takes to travel 1,500 yards I could provide a closer approximation of the sight's appearance (re: the angle the rings subtend to the gunner's eye).

Muzzle velocity of the HV gun was 2300 fps. So, very close to two seconds.

Also the foresight and rear sight don't seem to line up properly with the player's eye.

A necessary element of the sights actually working.

Quote

On that note -- although the Mk.VII mounting's trays held 100 rounds per gun -- the gunners could continually clip more ammunition (supplied in 14-round belts) onto the belt being fed into each gun, so pausing to reload shouldn't really be necessary.

My understanding is that the trays held 112 rounds, if you include the several rounds in between the tray itself and the gun feed port.

The shells on the bottom layer of the magazine-trays were the last ones fired, and were buried under >250 lbs. of belted ammo layered back and forth in higher layers, so getting at the outer end of the tray-load was nearly impossible while firing...and the ammo was greased, so attempting to clip another 14 round belt section of (slippery, live-fuzed) ammo into the moving end of the bottom layer of (slippery, live-fuzed) ammo after it was exposed would seem to me to be imprudent...but I was never a pom-pom loader.

Edited by jwilly

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BMBM
17 hours ago, foe2 said:

@BMBM  it looks great generally and I'm impressed by both the Pom Pom and the Flakvierling.   some serious fire power.  

 

one minor quibble and you are going to hate me for this. the British trawler as a HMT should be flying the white ensign rather than the red as its a commissioned RN vessel.  

Thanks. I’ll see about a flag swap.

 

2 hours ago, greyman said:

Not so much a feedback post about the new trawler as one about the new quad-pompom.

Good stuff all, thanks.

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Scotsman
Posted (edited)

The quad hand crank was replaced with an electric motor later in the war so the higher rate of fire is fine. Traverse speeds you have are correct . The quad is a powered mount and will be used elsewhere so that’s the most appropriate configuration. The Pom Pom tray can be loaded as the weapon fires. 
 

dispersion can be found here:

https://books.google.com/books?id=CuiQAgAAQBAJ&pg=PA31&lpg=PA31&dq=pompom+2pdr+range+table&source=bl&ots=ZvzQbxhBy5&sig=ACfU3U33W12ZQcU61pSOV9Ke_gHGqjt69g&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjO0tSw8pfsAhXRPM0KHU7zCKU4ChDoATAHegQIBRAB#v=onepage&q=pompom 2pdr range table&f=false

Edited by Scotsman

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jwilly
2 minutes ago, Scotsman said:

The Pom Pom tray can be loaded as the weapon fires. 

Does the feed pull from the top? If so, how does the loader get to the end shell to add more sections?

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delems

Fix the flag on the German freighter while at it please :)
Is still showing French.

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BMBM

News to me. Ticketing.

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jwilly
Posted (edited)

Single power mount showing geometry of 112-round shell tray, also used with quad guns. Octuple guns had larger trays:

WNBR_2pounder_m8_mkxv_pic.jpg

14 round shell belts came pre-greased. Loaders when preparing shell belts for joining and loading into empty trays, touched up the greasing as needed. Note that this stack of shell belts is not yet joined into a long belt. Several 14 round belt sections have an unconnected center link section sticking out toward the camera; other belt sections have a shell in the end two-ring link, but no center ring from the next shell's link. 

WNBR_2pounder_m8_Ammunition_pic.jpg

Prepared long shell belt being interleaved into a shell tray. Details of belt links can be seen...the outer link rings on a shell entering the gun are connected to the following shell, the center link ring to the preceding shell. Joining two belt sections requires pulling an end shell out, putting the corresponding link rings of another belt section in place, and re-inserting the removed shell. That had to be difficult to do as the last shell/belt layer was being pulled into the gun, since the side walls of the shell tray would prevent removing and inserting the last shell through the coupling link of the belt section to be attached, unless that last shell/belt layer could be lifted up clear of the side walls:

87753312de428d024fc99b5ba5eb0538.jpg

Another view of finishing the back-and-forth loading of a shell tray...one belt-section (14 rounds) to go:

hil49b2fhp001.jpg?width=960&crop=smart&a

 

Edited by jwilly

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Kilemall
1 hour ago, delems said:

Fix the flag on the German freighter while at it please :)
Is still showing French.

Vichy French.

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greyman
1 hour ago, jwilly said:

The hand cranked ("controlled") ROF depended on the cranker.

Going by the manual, both the normal and powered mounts have the same firing gear -- which has both electrically powered firing and hand firing. I assume the latter is for back-up. 

 

5 minutes ago, Scotsman said:

The quad hand crank was replaced with an electric motor later in the war so the higher rate of fire is fine.

I disagree about the rate of fire. I'll try and get the pertinent chapter available. The guns in the quadruple mounts always operated in the 'controlled' fashion -- this being integral to the firing mechanism, regardless of powered firing or hand firing.

 

55 minutes ago, jwilly said:

Does the feed pull from the top? If so, how does the loader get to the end shell to add more sections?

The 'outboard' ends of the boxes are open to let the crew slide / clip in more ammunition.

GB6M1vp.jpg

 

1 hour ago, Scotsman said:

dispersion can be found here:

Many thanks. I'm quite the dunce in the mathematics department ... am I reading this right to say:

2-pdr automatic fire --- 68% of rounds contained in a 4.4 milliradian circle (.252 degree circle)

 

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