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Minimum AO duration?

(Brainstorming) Minimum AO duration - POLL  

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delems

*** We put a paratrooper in england, 800m from town exactly to set off EWS for hours,

lol, funny.

But, tbh, nothing I can do to prevent a player from going to England and doing that.

Doesn't mean HC suggested it or supports it.

Do we take advantage of what players do on map sometimes.... of course!

Nice when players take initiative, I like to reward them if I can.

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jwrona
5 minutes ago, tater said:

This is a different gameplay issue. Part of it is the 360 degree nature of attacks. If people were all strating near each other, even with unherded cats it feels more like a team effort.

Why is 360 necessarily a bad thing? When the allies attack Escouilles, for some reason (hint: first place from FB)  we set a ZOC of frus SW, and a bunch of tanks W to look at ab.... That town is situated with a decent hill NW, altho far from CPs, an even better one ENE. The spawnable CPs (boulogne, samer) are south of an overpass, along with 1 link CP. The ZOC SHOULD logically then be south if the objective is get CPs and foothold in town, or arguably (and more risky) SE to E to have tank elevation up and get a warp FMS up for link CP. 

Ask @daokoth1how this went. He got shrek'd god knows how many times... even inside of the ZOC. Some players just cant work together the same way anymore, no matter how much cheerleading we do to use the logical plan.

With a "hard on-sides", the allies could never attempt such a plan.

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N8
1 minute ago, tater said:

First responders need to drive around in trucks and set DFMS all around town.

Just my style of play:

Whenever I first see EWS on a town, I automatically grab an LMG, and find opels, that is what I did last night - I grabbed a bren in Esco, and killed 3 opels setting up, but we lost the town, unfortunately.

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jwrona
1 minute ago, delems said:

Nice when players take initiative, I like to reward them if I can.

Reward them? With a non-fight? I thought this was a game based on fights, not trying to match the color of the bush you're hiding in to the best web-safe color.

"Hey HC, I have a weird hidden fru in this town, I can mole it if you want": AO is a reward and an opportunity to let them make a fight. 

*sees EWS on Deal*: AO is a reward for behavior that is arguably not in line with what the game is all about. But if this is how we're doing things... ;)

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delems

*** Reward them? With a non-fight?

Rewarding them for their initiative, even if possibly misplaced.

Not only that, sometimes there are no other AOs to really place...

Might as well place one with EWS that you know the enemy will likely defend.

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jwrona
9 minutes ago, tater said:

Extremely difficult without persistent DFMS being a thing. First responders need to drive around in trucks and set DFMS all around town. Of course the first responders need to not get killed doing that. The reality of course is that rifleman you were should have been in the field before the EWS ever went off—ALL the forces in town should be in positions to do that.

We need persistent FMS, that exist until destroyed, or the town/facility changes hands (even with no players in town at all).

When EWS goes off, the enemy is, unless in case of paras or ATGs, at minimum 800m from town. if its 1 truck, usually the others are still a bit behind him, unless they're driving in formation (always a dream of mine).

30 seconds for them to set a fru, 10 seconds for them to despawn, 5 seconds to pick a unit, 10 seconds for enter world bug/netcode3 disabled/spawn delay... In that time theres enough for me to despawn at what i'm doing (usually watching the map screen as our HC dont), or grab my 2nd account whos waiting on standby, spawn in truck at ab, race to a few hundred outside of town and set. And thats if they're setting right at 800m. Even MORE time if they're getting inside 500 (warp range), circling to get in the right bush, or avoiding that AI they forgot to see on their map.

It just takes a little initiative, as delems loves, or even just situational awareness, or even just reading a line of chat at the bottom of the screen (which comes in contrasting colored letters as its so important).

Edited by jwrona

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delems

*** I agree that separated towns (either CPs far from the rest of town, or an overpass, river, or other geographic constraint) are best. They are best because there is some sense of lines.

 

You and I both agree on the lines and sense of battle, 100% in agreement.

The game feels entirely more fun and immersed when 'lines' are semi present.

I do not like 'far' CPs, but I much more DISlike close CPs.  100m - 300m between facilities seems good.

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jwrona
1 minute ago, delems said:

*** I agree that separated towns (either CPs far from the rest of town, or an overpass, river, or other geographic constraint) are best. They are best because there is some sense of lines.

 

You and I both agree on the lines and sense of battle, 100% in agreement.

The game feels entirely more fun and immersed when 'lines' are semi present.

Aren't Diest/Bavay/Thulin/Eghezee such crap towns for this "we jammed it all together cuz yolo" reason? but thats another thread...

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delems

*** Aren't Diest/Bavay/Thulin/Eghezee such crap towns 

There are far too many to even begin to list.

Wavre being the worst probably on map (off hand).

Or every one of those towns that have CPs in the AB.

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tater
17 minutes ago, jwrona said:

Why is 360 necessarily a bad thing?

Because the attacker is now the defender, with all the advantages that confers. Where's the enemy for the attack? THAT WAY —> (the spawn castles in town). For the defender, where's the enemy? EVERY WAY! Yipee?

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jwilly
Quote

Why is 360 necessarily a bad thing?

I'll assume that's a sincere comment and not sarcasm, in spite of its obvious absurdity.

Quote

Because the attacker is now the defender, with all the advantages that confers. Where's the enemy for the attack? THAT WAY —> (the spawn castles in town). For the defender, where's the enemy? EVERY WAY! Yipee?

That's the gameplay argument...that turning the attacker into the defender is a huge advantage for the attacker, and so...in a game that's marketed as having good fighting...the fighting is made highly one-sided. It makes for crappy gameplay, 

And, there's a realism argument too. WWIIOL's marketing is built on a realism message. This supposedly is a game about WWII fighting. But, WWIIOL fighting, with the attacker arriving first and attacking from any direction they want against "defenders" that haven't had a chance to prepare a defense, bears no resemblance to WWII fighting.

Edited by jwilly
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tater
3 minutes ago, jwilly said:

And, there's a realism argument too. WWIIOL's marketing is built on a realism message. This supposedly is a game about WWII fighting. But, WWIIOL fighting, with the attacker arriving first and attacking from any direction they want against "defenders" that haven't had a chance to prepare a defense, bears no resemblance to WWII fighting.

Note that "prepares a defense" is often conflated with "trench warfare" on the forums. All a "prepared defense" needs to be is infantry in the field covering likely avenues of advance. Maybe a few ATGs. Really. That's a "prepared defense."

Simple solutions? Easy MSP changes.

1. FMS as it is now has a deploy range substantially under the distance from spawn point to whatever the target town is. On defensive, no target needed, within a short distance of a friendly facility for a persistent DFMS (1 km?).

2. These FMS (fairly short range from spawn point of truck, per #1) are persistent. meaning they stick around with no ML until the facility that they link to is capped, or the unit moves towns. Maybe there is 1 persistent FMS per spawnable facility/unit—1 per spawnable, and 1 per unit, so a FB with 2 BDEs and 1 Garrison linked could spawn 3 persistent FMS. A town with the same supply could spawn 3 per depot and 3 per AB. Attacker can still spawn as many FMS as they like, but the rest are like current ones with respect to having a player in the mission to stay active.

3. A new MSP added that can be deployed by a truck that can deploy closer to target—as close or closer than the current FMS can. The difference? These MSPs contain 1 (packed ;) )truckload of inf, and 1 ATG. A heavy squad of inf—a nominal ww2 squad for that army, plus 1 of each special unit (mortar, sniper, combat engie, etc). The spawn list is fixed, it never refills. 1 truck can deliver 1 truck of inf. When we get the UC, it can deliver 1 UC full of inf, HT can deliver 1 HT of inf, and so forth.

4. Crew weapons get to place a fixed spawn list MSP as well. Looks like a foxhole. Has 2-3 rifles. This allows ATGs/AAA to be local spawn points for defensive inf. Obviously only works for such weapons that made their own missions and were towed/pushed to whatever location.

We now have "on sides" FMS for "endless" spawning, but farther from the target town than now. DFMS can be placed outside town, and left there so that first responders can spawn out of town from the start (as @N8 pointed out he likes to do). Attacking forces of course can patrol ahead of an attack and take out the DFMS with engies/rifles. Patrols (or patrols in force ahead of an attack) now make sense. Spawn some inf, move ahead of the truckload MSPs to blow DFMS at the target. Trucks can still drive around to the rear if they like, but no more endless armies attacking a rear facility, as many inf as can be carried by as many trucks that drive there.

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fidd
2 hours ago, delems said:

*** I agree that separated towns (either CPs far from the rest of town, or an overpass, river, or other geographic constraint) are best. They are best because there is some sense of lines.

 

You and I both agree on the lines and sense of battle, 100% in agreement.

The game feels entirely more fun and immersed when 'lines' are semi present.

All 3 of us can agree on this particular point. (Not sure I'm a fan of well isolated cp's though)

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fidd
1 hour ago, tater said:

Note that "prepares a defense" is often conflated with "trench warfare" on the forums. All a "prepared defense" needs to be is infantry in the field covering likely avenues of advance. Maybe a few ATGs. Really. That's a "prepared defense."

Simple solutions? Easy MSP changes.

1. FMS as it is now has a deploy range substantially under the distance from spawn point to whatever the target town is. On defensive, no target needed, within a short distance of a friendly facility for a persistent DFMS (1 km?).

2. These FMS (fairly short range from spawn point of truck, per #1) are persistent. meaning they stick around with no ML until the facility that they link to is capped, or the unit moves towns. Maybe there is 1 persistent FMS per spawnable facility/unit—1 per spawnable, and 1 per unit, so a FB with 2 BDEs and 1 Garrison linked could spawn 3 persistent FMS. A town with the same supply could spawn 3 per depot and 3 per AB. Attacker can still spawn as many FMS as they like, but the rest are like current ones with respect to having a player in the mission to stay active.

3. A new MSP added that can be deployed by a truck that can deploy closer to target—as close or closer than the current FMS can. The difference? These MSPs contain 1 (packed ;) )truckload of inf, and 1 ATG. A heavy squad of inf—a nominal ww2 squad for that army, plus 1 of each special unit (mortar, sniper, combat engie, etc). The spawn list is fixed, it never refills. 1 truck can deliver 1 truck of inf. When we get the UC, it can deliver 1 UC full of inf, HT can deliver 1 HT of inf, and so forth.

4. Crew weapons get to place a fixed spawn list MSP as well. Looks like a foxhole. Has 2-3 rifles. This allows ATGs/AAA to be local spawn points for defensive inf. Obviously only works for such weapons that made their own missions and were towed/pushed to whatever location.

We now have "on sides" FMS for "endless" spawning, but farther from the target town than now. DFMS can be placed outside town, and left there so that first responders can spawn out of town from the start (as @N8 pointed out he likes to do). Attacking forces of course can patrol ahead of an attack and take out the DFMS with engies/rifles. Patrols (or patrols in force ahead of an attack) now make sense. Spawn some inf, move ahead of the truckload MSPs to blow DFMS at the target. Trucks can still drive around to the rear if they like, but no more endless armies attacking a rear facility, as many inf as can be carried by as many trucks that drive there.

With the best will in the world, for I know we agree on a lot, I think persistant FMS's already exist - we call them "depots". (If you think back the pre-depot game, where everything had to spawn from the AB, what you are suggesting follows the logic which saw depot-spawning arise. All this actually achieved was to move the initial battle from inside the AB (I'm not kidding!) to close to town. I also have a reservation about persistant FMS's per se. 

The way I look at it is this. The central problem of current gameplay - really in any TZ - is that the front is too long for the player-base, even at peaktime, to mount a standing defence, so the nominal attackers are in fact the near-stationary ones, with the defenders 'attacking' to move out of the town. This much I think we agree on. The trick is to:

Greatly slow down the attackers progress from FB to AB, giving him something to do well away from town, which the defender can attempt to frustrate or at least delay. If the attacker is successful he may then place the AO, which releases armour from the FB (and indeed the town feeding his FB), as well as releasing armour from the defender's AB and behind the lines FB. This would prevent pre-camping, could be made to address imbalance, and would ensure at least some defenders in place.

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Kurosats

Not sure what vote I'd cast here.  @jwrona and @delems know what's up on why it wouldn't make sense to make AO pulling take forever.  We need to keep people invested because if nothing's going on they're gone for the day.  I get trying to stimulate an engagement and prevent one side from just spinning their AO from one town to the next before the other side has a chance to do their own crap.  Maybe an alternative here would be some kind of additional logic that sets the AO pull time.  For example, maybe we get a couple of mulligans.  OK so Attack 1 was a bust before it began, so was Attack 2.  Well not we'd better commit to Attack 3 because now we can't pull for an hour or something.  Or like, you can pull the AO but if your attack has gone on longer than X minutes and becomes a slugfest (longer than an hour?), well now you're pot committed for another half hour or so before you can pull the AO.   SYSTEM placed AO's wouldn't count towards any of this of course.  Some other conditions that could be fleshed out:  Pull-time varies if overpop/underpop.  Certain "objective" criteria can allow you to move the AO (you did x, y, z, like...got your boys together and set off double inf/armor ews in another town, so ok, we'll let you change the AO early now because now you're not being a sneaky AO switching dbag).  You can pull the AO early if you lose the FBs to town (or hey, maybe you can SURRENDER the FBs to town to pull the AO early).  That last one is interesting but could be very damaging of course, and I don't know how you reconcile it with towns that don't have FB links.

Along with that, we need the ability to insta-pull SYSTEM placed AOs that are garbage, and possibly even sit on our AOs (not have them auto-spent by SYSTEM) when HC is online so that we don't have a few donkey's trying to "attack" a town we didn't want to AO in the first place because we need all hands on deck for a DO.

Edited by kurosats

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delems

*** The problem is we've all got used to one type of battle, the opening phase of which is characterized by a total absence of defending players

If we want to give defenders a bit more chance, change truck EWS to 1k.

Or just change all EWS for anything to 1500m.

 

Issue is, I've seen towns get EWS, 10 minutes later CPs hot... and still no defenders.

I've even seen 1 to 2 towns in my years here fall w/o a SINGLE mission to them.

But, those are more the exception.

If we want the defender to have some more time to react, extend EWS some.

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jwrona

On the persistent DFMS idea... Dumb.
Say its 300m from town, out in field. You're gonna have defenders/ATGs/etc spawning BEHIND you. What the F. Solution? Move some depots OUTWARD from town (altho drawback harder to respond to as a defender... think of towns like Moreuil where CPs are all over the effing place or Aachen AF which is a few miles from town proper.

On the 360º becoming restricted... eh.

One of the brilliant aspects of this game is audio ranges that are actually INSANE to go with the HUGE map. Free play across the map is encouraged: backline tanks/frus, blowing an FB from 1 town over, etc. 1500m you can hear trucks. If you get your FMS, or even 1 guy 500m from town, he can now hear two WHOPPING kilometers from town. And get this, if they flank around to set up a ZOC from behind you (here comes the bloody kicker about big map), you have a town BEHIND that to go take it all down from. All that requires is a little bit of time. I spent a good chunk of my play time today driving frus from Fixecourt to Talmas... and got behind their tank column, behind their FMSs, and started havoc. I took an M10 from an FB south about 5k to go intercept stuff from an enemy FB (read: camp it till they spawn 2 stugs, 2 pz3's, and a tiger all at once and you dont know who to shoot first)...

Smart tactics require time and dedication. not the system placing all sorts of frus and rules and nonsense for you. If that's the case... let's go make a shoebox style game.

Edited by jwrona

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tater
26 minutes ago, fidd said:

With the best will in the world, for I know we agree on a lot, I think persistant FMS's already exist - we call them "depots". (If you think back the pre-depot game, where everything had to spawn from the AB, what you are suggesting follows the logic which saw depot-spawning arise. All this actually achieved was to move the initial battle from inside the AB (I'm not kidding!) to close to town. I also have a reservation about persistant FMS's per se. 

I was there ;)

I suppose the difference is the known, point location of the depots. You have a point, however. Part of the issue is that I'm trying to make lemonade from the lemons we have, even though I might prefer a more radical change.

What if (spitballing here) each depot and AB had a persistent MSP (PMSP) of some kind, and within some range of that facility (to keep them roughly on the same side of town). Longer range for the AB-linked ones, but the depot PMSPs have to be within some hundreds of meters. After an AO is placed, the depot PMSP can be blown, and that is required to turn on depot capture for the spawnable.

3 minutes ago, jwrona said:

On the persistent DFMS idea... Dumb.
Say its 300m from town, out in field. You're gonna have defenders/ATGs/etc spawning BEHIND you. What the F. Solution? Move some depots OUTWARD from town (altho drawback harder to respond to as a defender... think of towns like Moreuil where CPs are all over the effing place or Aachen AF which is a few miles from town proper.

No you won't. On-sides rules. The max range for the DFMS from town is closer to town than the max range that attacks can place. "Endless" attack FMS would be placed father from town (1 km? More?), closer MSPs on attack would be limited to truckloads.

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fidd
2 hours ago, jwrona said:

On the persistent DFMS idea... Dumb.
Say its 300m from town, out in field. You're gonna have defenders/ATGs/etc spawning BEHIND you. What the F. Solution? Move some depots OUTWARD from town (altho drawback harder to respond to as a defender... think of towns like Moreuil where CPs are all over the effing place or Aachen AF which is a few miles from town proper.

On the 360º becoming restricted... eh.

One of the brilliant aspects of this game is audio ranges that are actually INSANE to go with the HUGE map. Free play across the map is encouraged: backline tanks/frus, blowing an FB from 1 town over, etc. 1500m you can hear trucks. If you get your FMS, or even 1 guy 500m from town, he can now hear two WHOPPING kilometers from town. And get this, if they flank around to set up a ZOC from behind you (here comes the bloody kicker about big map), you have a town BEHIND that to go take it all down from. All that requires is a little bit of time. I spent a good chunk of my play time today driving frus from Fixecourt to Talmas... and got behind their tank column, behind their FMSs, and started havoc. I took an M10 from an FB south about 5k to go intercept stuff from an enemy FB (read: camp it till they spawn 2 stugs, 2 pz3's, and a tiger all at once and you dont know who to shoot first)...

Smart tactics require time and dedication. not the system placing all sorts of frus and rules and nonsense for you. If that's the case... let's go make a shoebox style game.

I would contend that the disadvantages, in terms of "better battles", contingent on the use of attacking FMS's at all points of the compass, far outweigh the advantages they confer. The net effect of 360 degree FMS's is to render a linear defence, of either ATG's or Armour, highly vulnerable, and do so in a way completlty at odds with the nominal units based in the town. 360 degree "offside" spawns need to go, certainly until the AO is placed, as a minimum, and likely more stringently.

Further EDIT:

On reflection, thinking about the "On-side / off-side" FMS's again, I think that a simple rule of on-side / off-side is not optimal. It's too limiting for an attacker. I would suggest that it might be better if it ran on the following lines: At the outset, the off-side rule is applied, so that attackers FMS's from a specific FB can only be in a 180 degree arc, from the target-town. This should persist throughout the attack, with prolonged ownership of a cp being the point at which the off-side rule ceases. I'm thinking circa 15 minutes ownership?

Edited by fidd
correction of typos

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