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Gustaf

Building a new PC

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I need advice on a mobo and cpu. Total budget for the PC is $1000 and I don't need a monitor. This rig will be almost solely used for playing WWIIOL.

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I may get crap from someone for saying this but core2duo is the only way to go right now anyone telling you different is an AMD fanboi or a troll.

I haven't built with this MB personally but it's the newest nvidia chipset 650i. Mid range priced compared to the 680i's but a nice board. I liked the look and the price. Asus is a good name too. It supports quad core and core2duo extreme. You will probably need a new power supply as well unless the one you got is real top dog and fairly new.

All the new performance boards have an 8pin power plug for the cpu that older psu's don't have.

Asus P5N-E SLI $134

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16813131142

Intel Core2Duo $316

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16819115003

It's the cheapest core2duo with 4 megs of cache. They've come down quite a bit too.

Corsair HX620 PSU $169

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16817139002

These are great they're modular so you only use the cords you need. Plenty of power for 2 gforce8800gtx's. This PSU has powerful 12v rails.

I'm kinda wanting this MB myself. It's been overclocking stable past 500Mhz fsb. Only problem is it supports crossfire and only does sli with hacked nvidia drivers, but if you don't mind that or don't care about 2 video cards, it's an excellent deal. Top quality.

Abit quadGT $219

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16813127019

If you're not scared to overclock then get this

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16819115004

and save a little more money for a kick butt video card.

This is the best deal IMO in DDR2 memory.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16820609026

2gigs of ddr800 for $268 that runs very tight timings. 4,4,3,8

It will run past 1000 too if you slack the timings to 5,5,5,15

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I haven't really been keeping up with the dual processor threads. Last I knew WWIIOL won't support both processors. Am I right in thinking that the game will then effecively only use 1 of the 2.4ghz processors and will that be fast enough? Is a single 3+ processor the wy to go or is dual technology coming to WWIIOL?

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Core 2 duo, e6400 or 6600 are best buy IMHO, get some nice board, asus or gigabyte.

As for PSU (power supply) myths are greatly exaggerated. I have core 2 duo e6600, intel board, 2 gig @ 800 ram, 8800 GTX card, 1x sata 200gb hdd, dvd burner, creative x-fi card, and all that runs fine on 450W PSU ;) Originally I got 650W but replaced is cause of noise. All you need is PSU with dual 12V.

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It's true if you have one of the older designed MB's without the 8pin 12v eps plug. This is a new plug meant to supply power to dual and quad core CPU's. Only boards made in the last couple of months that support extreme edition or quad core have it.

I've built a few and they will work on the old 4 pin plugs but to have any piece of mind to pass the machine on to a customer you have to at least have all the power plugged into the MB.

I've seen quite a few threads with people building new machines with core2duo's and big video cards. They use the powersupply that comes with the case and soon experience resetting problems when the system is a full load. Just get something with that 8 pin plug and a decent 12v rail and you'll be fine.

I like the Corsair HX520 plenty of power close to $100 bucks and all the plugs you could want. It's got all the new certifications too.

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I built the following recently and it runs WW2OL (and everything else btw) like a dream.

Don't pay too much attention to just the clock speeds on chips - it's a poor way to compare performance, e.g. the cheapest core2duo which runs at 1.86 ghz easily trounces my old 3 ghz P4 in benchmarks. The core2duo chips also run much cooler and thus require less noisy cooling. They are also very overclockable - people have been clocking the 2.13ghz model to 3ghz on air cooling!

The game will indeed use only 1 core (as does every game and most other programs) however you can set teamspeak and most other processes to use 1 core and leave the other just for the game.

Basically you'd be mad not to buy one if you're building a system at this point in time.

My rig:

core2duo E6600 @ 2.4ghz

Zalman CNPS7900 flower cooler

Abit AW9D motherboard

2 gigs RAM

BFG 7900GS

3 x seagate barracuda 160gb drives

Seasonic S12 600 PSU

I run WW2OL @ 1152 x 864 with everything on/at max bar the water reflections, which I don't think anyone can actually run anyway. Lowest I've seen fps dip is 35 (very heavy fighting) but they typically sit comfortably in the 60-70 region, higher when flying. Got 300 offline once :D

Still subject to the fps crashes that everyone experiences atm but that's down to CRS

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That's a nice rig.

Check this out! I just found out that the new abit quadGT has backlight led's that you can apply 8 different motion patterns to in the bios. I want one even more now. Cool if you're into bling. =)

bling.jpg

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Intel currently has the better processors right now but this always flip flops between them and AMD. However the motherboard's for AMD processors are a lot better right now. Heres what id get Both AMD and Intel for mobo and CPU and also an entire system for under 1000$

Intel BLKD975XBX2KR LGA 775 Intel 975X ATX Intel Motherboard 219.99$ http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16813121060

CPU - Intel Core 2 Duo E6700 Conroe 2.66GHz 4M shared L2 Cache LGA 775 Processor 519.00$ (Very good overclocker)

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16819115002

Total = 738.99$ use the rest buy a good water cooling system and you will be blazin.

AMD

Mobo - ASUS CROSSHAIR Socket AM2 NVIDIA nForce 590 SLI MCP ATX AMD or ASUS M2N32 - SLI Deluxe

Crosshair is 229$ M2N is 199$

CPU- AMD Athlon 64 FX-62 Windsor 2.8GHz 2 x 1MB L2 Cache Socket AM2 Dual Core Processor

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16819103861

(Has unlocked multiplier)

589.00$

Intel is the better buy right now but id wait until AMD releases their 65nm CPUS because they might be better and could also force Intel to make their Conroes better and cheaper :D

Here's a system for under 1000$

Motherboard - ASUS M2N32 - SLI Deluxe 198.99$ (Best motherboard I've ever had and it has everything you could ever need.

Heres hardocp review

http://enthusiast.hardocp.com/article.html?art=MTA3NCwsLGhlbnRodXNpYXN0

CPU - AMD Orleans 3800+ 99$ (I went with a single core cpu so you can invest more in other stuff but it's AM2 so you can upgrade to dual core anytime you want)

Memory - CORSAIR XMS2 2GB DDR2 - 217$ (Newegg currently offering 30.00$ Rebate 187$)

Video Card - XFX GeForce 7900GT 256mb PCI-E 199.99$

PSU - mushkin 550200 ATX12V 550W Power Supply 99.99$(10$ Rebate

89.99$) (Has plenty of current on both 12V Rails) [i used to use nothing but Antec but I've been hearing that they are starting to manufacture crap that fails within a year.] <-- I hope this isn't true =[

HDD - Western Digital Caviar SE16 WD2500KS 250GB 7200 RPM 16MB Cache SATA 3.0Gb/s Hard Drive (79.99$ 10$ rebate here as well 69.99$)

250 Gigs if you want more or less space adjust accordingly but I'd defineatly stay with the Western Digital they have always made good hard drives.

Optical Drives - Doesn't really matter in my opinion you can get a combo drive that does everything but burn dvds for 25$

Sound Card - Creative Sound Blaster X-Fi XtremeGamer 69.99$

Regular Total = 988.98$

With Rebates = 939.95$

This system is SLi ready and Dual Core ready so whenever you get more money you can throw on another video card or upgrade the processor to a Dual Core.

I chose to go with the Orleans 3800+ so you could have more DDR2 which is very important in this game. I think that this processor is one of the best you can buy for under 100$

If you wish to go Intel and do the same thing there are some rather good single core LGA775 socket processors out there but stay away from the Prescotts (Run hot) and get Intel Celeron D 352 Cedar Mill 3.2GHz LGA 775 Processor Model BX80552352 (It has a slower FSB but it's 65nm which means it runs very cool and you can overclock the hell out of it)

Everything was priced from www.newegg.com

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I haven't really been keeping up with the dual processor threads. Last I knew WWIIOL won't support both processors. Am I right in thinking that the game will then effecively only use 1 of the 2.4ghz processors and will that be fast enough? Is a single 3+ processor the wy to go or is dual technology coming to WWIIOL?

Nope.

WWIIOL *DOES* take advantage of dual-core multi-threading.

Not as much as it could, but it does. Ask DOC if you don't believe me.

Single-core processors are extremely outdated anyway in terms of raw speed.

Even if you're playing a game that only takes advantage of a single core CPU, it's likely that it won't be anywhere near as fast as a mid-range dual-core CPU anyway.

Let me make something clear:

THE GHZ SPEED OF THE PROCESSOR DOES *NOT* MATTER WHEN YOU ARE COMPARING DIFFERENT *TYPES* OF PROCESSORS.

It's funny, I tried explaining this to a guy in the game once and he had a hard time believing me.

A 3ghz Pentium 4 is faster than a 2.5ghz Pentium 4.

A 3ghz Pentium 4 is SLOWER than a 2.2ghz Athlon64.

A 2.8ghz Core 2 Duo is faster than a 2.1ghz Core 2 Duo.

A 2.1ghz Core 2 Duo is FASTER than a 3ghz Pentium 4.

The ghz speed only indicates the faster CPU when you're comparing CPUs of the same type.

In general:

Athlon 64s are faster than Pentium 4s clock for clock: That basically means that if both CPUs had the exact same ghz speed, the Athlon64 would be much faster.

Core 2 Duos are faster than every other CPU on the market clock for clock: that means that if a Core 2 Duo, an Athlon 64, and a Pentium 4 were all set to the exact same ghz speed, the Core 2 Duo would have the fastest performance in all benchmarks and games.

Basically, it has to do with getting the most "bang for the buck" per clock.

In order of performance,

Core 2 Duo -> Athlon 64 X2 -> Athlon 64 -> Pentium D -> Pentium 4

The Core 2 Duo edges out the Athlon 64 X2 in most application benchmarks, and gets significantly superior performance in gaming. However, the Pentium D and Pentium 4 lag so far behind the Core 2 Duo and Athlon 64, they're not even worthy of consideration for a serious gaming PC, IMO.

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Intel is the better buy right now but id wait until AMD releases their 65nm CPUS because they might be better and could also force Intel to make their Conroes better and cheaper

AMD already released their 65nm cpu's codenamed "Brisbane" Here's the line up.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.asp?Category=34&N=2010340343+50001028+1051720996+1050923825&Submit=ENE&SubCategory=343

You haven't heard of them because they don't perform any better than the windsor's, sadly. I was looking forward to them myself. Actually they run the same speeds but with less power consumption. The problem is AMD reduced their die size but they have kept an identical design. The design seems to not like anything over 3.0gHz and you're lucky to make it there regaurdless of the die shrink. The redesign is happening sometime this summer. I believe it's called the K8L.

Here's an article from tomshardware on the new brisbane core.

http://www.tomshardware.com/2007/01/08/can-amds-65-nm-core-fight-back/

Here's a wiki article on the K8L

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AMD_K8L

Official timeline

On July 21, 2006, AMD President and COO Dirk Meyer and Senior VP Marty Seyer confirmed that the launch date of K8L (Revision H) microprocessors is slated for mid-2007; and that it will contain a quad core version for servers, workstations, and high-end desktops, as well as a dual core version for consumer Desktops. Some of the Revision H Opterons shipped in 2007 will be at Thermal Design Power of 68W.

On August 15, 2006, at the launch of the first Socket F(1207) dual core Opterons, AMD announced that the firm has reached the final design stage (i.e. Tape-out) of K8L quad-core Opterons, codenamed Deerhound. This will now go to the test and validation stage; and will be available for samples in the next several months.[2]

As of November 2006, reports leaked the up-coming desktop part codenames Agena, Agena FX[3], and the core speeds of the parts range from 2.4 GHz - 2.9 GHz respectively, 512 KiB L2 cache each core, 2 MiB L3 cache, using HyperTransport 3.0, with a TDP of 125 W. [4] In recent reports, K8L also comes in single core (codenamed Spica) and dual core with or without L3 cache (codenamed Kuma and Rana respectively)[5] variants under the same microarchitecture. [6]

I'd say that this timeline has been pushed back a few months because at one point it says that new architecture 65nm chips where coming out in 1st quarter 2007 but I don't see any and haven't heard of anything coming in the next month or so. AMD has been quiet about their new stuff.

I hope they don't change the socket on me again. I saw some references to a socket called AM2+ for the K8L. I specifically built a machine for a friend and put a single core orleans 3800 in it and told him we could slot a low end new replacement when the new architecture comes out. Looks like thats a big no. AMD changes sockets too much. I wish they'd stick with one for more than 9 months.

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By the time AMD is finally rolling out a totally new design 65nm cpu. Intel will be rolling out 45nm cpu's. The first cpu's in 20 years with a fundamentally redesigned transistor to combat current leakage. They will have 410 million transistors up from 280 million on today's core2duos and 6 megs of on die cache.

http://www.tgdaily.com/2007/01/27/intel_45nm_penryn_details/

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Sigh, so then as usual anything I put together will be completely outdated by the time I finish closing up the case . . .

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If you want to overclock your CPU, then try a scythe cooler, the best for the price today.

http://www.computerbase.de/artikel/hardware/gehaeuse_kuehlung/2006/test_scythe_infinity_cpu-kuehler/4/#abschnitt_performancevergleich

I have the scythe infinity with liquid metal and my 6300 @ 2800 runs on test with max 40°. But he possible won`t fit in your case, so i can suggest the next scythe ninja cooler, is also great.

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Scythe's are good. I wouldn't say they are any better or cheaper than Zalmans.

They are neck and neck performance wise. I've read reviews. The Scythes are better at lower fan speeds by just a few degrees but the Zalmans are better by a few as you increase the air flow. I also think the Zalmans look better. Adds some nice bling to have that fat chunk of copper showing though that side window.

One thing is the Scythes can be modified real easy to take 2 fans. Then they can outperform the Zalman9700, not by much though. Also the Schthe can take normal replacement case fans and the Zalmans fan is custom fit but can be replaced with some skillful work. You have to cut the surround off of a fan to replace it and pilot 2 screws into the center support.

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I am NOT the biggest expert on hardware. However, I sent this to a player who asked me about some recommendations. He said he had $800. Thought you might like some more opinions from other people on how to spend your money. A lot of my opinions are based on my experiences, my miserly spending and refusing to buy the next greatest thing, and the fact that I milk a system until its dead, so I don't buy new systems very often. And I'm not interested in SLI/Crossfire, which may make me some of a anti-tech curmudgeon.

---------

First, recycle as much as you can. Assuming the mouse, keyboard, monitor, cd/dvd rom, and floppy are ok, you're looking for:

- CPU

- Motherboard

- System Memory (RAM)

- Video Card

- Hard Disc Drive

****CPU

Personally, I'd probably go with an Athlon 64 X2 4200+ (Socket AM2)

About $170 on Newegg: http://tinyurl.com/l5prg

Mentioned on Tom's Hardware here: http://tinyurl.com/3a4qen

****Motherboard

A good brand Socket AM2 mobo, that supports an Athlong 64 X2 4200+

(I'm not interested in SLI/Crossfire systems, so I wouldn't get that on my motherboard). I'd probably choose between these two ASUS cards, depending on what connections you want (DVI, firewire, S/PDIF, etc.)

http://tinyurl.com/37q9q9 ~$95

Tom's Hardware goes with a fancier MSI that supports SLI for $180:

http://tinyurl.com/2tkueh

****System Memory (RAM)

Definately 2 Gigs. You'll never go back. Get a good brand name. Corsair, OCZ, Mushkin, Kingston, etc.

DDR2 400

The Corsair ValueSelect is nicely priced at ~$170: http://tinyurl.com/dzoun

Otherwise, about $240 for OCZ or Corsair: http://tinyurl.com/298xxt

RUN MEMORY TESTS ON YOUR NEW RAM AS SOON AS YOU GET IT. THE GOOD KIND OF TEST THAT REQUIRES YOU TO MAKE A BOOT FLOPPY. RETURN ANY RAM WITH ERRORS!

****Video Card:

http://www.tomshardware.com/2007/01/05/the_best_gaming_video_cards_for_the_money/

~$150: Radeon X1900 GT

~$180: GeForce 7900 GS or Radeon X1950 Pro

~$260: Radeon X1950 XT (though NewEgg has this around $216 now).

http://tinyurl.com/2senzr

****Hard Disc Drive

I dont have this one but I hear amazing things about it. Big, Silent, and well priced: Western Digital Caviar SE16 SATA 500GB. Newegg has an OEM (just a box) and a Retail (comes with cables and I'm not sure what else) version with a difference in price: $150 vs. $270.

http://tinyurl.com/2epcxr

Those components give a range of: $735 to $1076 depending on choices.

Some other sites to check:

Sharky Extreme's Video Card price guide

http://www.sharkyextreme.com/guides/article.php/3657001

Their December Value PC guide

http://www.sharkyextreme.com/guides/MVGSBG/article.php/3649521

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It's true if you have one of the older designed MB's without the 8pin 12v eps plug. This is a new plug meant to supply power to dual and quad core CPU's. Only boards made in the last couple of months that support extreme edition or quad core have it.
This is' date=' Core 2 Duo use [i']less power than the old P4, by quite a lot. So all this talk about oh if you want to use the new fast C2D you need powerful 8-plug PSUs I personally think is a bunch of bull.... The E-series TDP is 65W, the X-series 75W. The fast P4s could use more than twice that. Anything that ran a reasonably powerful P4 will be more than fine running a C2D.

It's true that if you get some crap noname PSU that comes in some cheap case, then you might have problems. Because some manufacturers rate their PSUs as peak load if it's cooled to subfreezing temperatures that means they actually have much lower real capacity. Since noone can be bothered to check the actual specs, the MB manufacturers instead inflate their numbers to say that you need kW size PSUs just to be on the safe side. This, IMHO, is completely the wrong way to go about the problem. The correct way is to specify 12V current draw and let people who want to build their own system learn to frigging calculate power.

By using excessively large PSUs you get something that's more expensive, less efficient at typical machine load, not to mention louder. For zero benefit. It just doesn't make sense.

I have a reasonably new machine with a moderately overclocked E6400 and an X1900XT video card. This system uses ~185W when running full out. My Seasonic S12-380 can supply 25A on the 12V rails, it doesn't even struggle. For a dual GPU setup I might need want to go to 30A. Quad core maybe 6A more. That's it. Your system will not use more power unless you overclock the heck out of it...

Sorry for tripping rant mode, but this is one of my pet peeves...

If anyone is still reading, I was going to mention this, too. About dual core, KFS1 said that Netcode2 is threaded (maybe that's why people report getting better FPS with it on), and that more and more of the code is becoming threaded, so as time goes on, multiple cores will be more and more useful.

Oh, and about noise. I passionately hate computers that make noise. I use a Scythe Ninja fanless heatsink in my Antec P180 case, which works well because the 12cm case fan sits right next to the heat sink. The PSU is very quiet, and is mounted in a separate duct on the bottom in this case, so the PSU doesn't get the hot case air. My GPU uses a Zalman VF900 GPU cooler, and I have some fancy fan control gadgets. With this, the system is basically inaudible until the GPU fan maxes out. Then there's a soft whoosh. I can't tell you how a quiet computer enhances your experience, it's just so much nicer than a loud thing.

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This is, Core 2 Duo use less power than the old P4, by quite a lot. So all this talk about oh if you want to use the new fast C2D you need powerful 8-plug PSUs I personally think is a bunch of bull....

The 8 pin plug is forcing you to buy new, unless you only want half of the power supplied to the cpu with an older power supply that only has a 4 pin aux MB power plug. Some won't even turn on with only the 4 pin plugged in. Most MB's are backward compatable with older PSU's but make no promises on stability. There's also adapters. Most of the adapters don't derive power from 2 rails like the plug is designed for though. The one made for my hiper580 typeR does. http://www.hipergroup.com/English/products/hlc-2m1p-15.html

It takes 3 seperate plugs from my power supply to make that 8pin plug.

Power supplies have been redesigned. The 3 volt rail is no longer needed. It's not the cpu that needs the power it's the video card. Like you said you may want to upgrade to go dual card. Some people like to build a stout machine from jump street that they can just stick another card in any time. Whatever card. If someone gave you 2 8800gtx's could you put them in your machine and run a watercooling setup? Some people like to be ready.

Not all big power supplies are noisy. Buy quality. You did. Seasonics are great. Most review sites will tell you how noisy a PSU is before you buy it. Do some research if you're worried about sound. Personally I can't hear my computer over the hoards of shermans and spits in my headphones but that's just me. =) jonny guru is the best place to research PSU's.

http://www.jonnyguru.com/

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Scythe's are good. I wouldn't say they are any better or cheaper than Zalmans.

They are neck and neck performance wise. I've read reviews. The Scythes are better at lower fan speeds by just a few degrees but the Zalmans are better by a few as you increase the air flow. I also think the Zalmans look better. Adds some nice bling to have that fat chunk of copper showing though that side window.

One thing is the Scythes can be modified real easy to take 2 fans. Then they can outperform the Zalman9700, not by much though. Also the Schthe can take normal replacement case fans and the Zalmans fan is custom fit but can be replaced with some skillful work. You have to cut the surround off of a fan to replace it and pilot 2 screws into the center support.

They aren`t much differences between both thats true, but here in Germany i payed ~35,00$ for the scythe infinity, and my brother for the Zalman 9500 ~50,00$. But what i prefer the most, is the silent aspect. In this, the scythes are better, and if you look again on the computerbase tests, the Zalman is close in cooling, but for the cost of mutch more noise.

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