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He 111 scores almost no soft kills


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vanapo
Posted (edited)

I am under the impression the bombs on the Heinkel are borked somehow. Oftentimes you drop them on ABs with a lot of movement and you don't even get a single hit in the AAR.

Now I checked campaign stats. He 111 scored very very very few infantry kills. 7 kills total against British riflemen thus far this campaign. I would guess most of them from collapsing houses after a direct hit - as 8 british riflemen have been killed by friendly fire. So we got more friendly fire kills on british riflemen than Heinkel kills on them - in a game without friendly fire.

In comparison, 103 german rifleman have been killed by the DB7 alone while the DB7 has less ToM (of course axis time is split on brits and french). This seems to be somewhat strange. Did some adjustments to HE damage probably mess with the sc250 bombs and made them somewhat useless? Might not be a side thing, but I only got first hand impressions from our bombs, which are modstly 250s...

Edited by vanapo
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fidd

That does look very odd. If the stats are functioning properly, and that's far from something I'd assume to be certain. The easiest way to test this would be to put a vehicle in a field with a bunch of standing/prone/kneeling infantry in a roughly AB sized square, bomb it and record the killed/wounded/untouched, with the bomber aiming for the vehicle. That'll give a base-line for shrapnel as an approximate effect, then repeat the test inside the AB.

if I had to guess why there's this discrepancy, it's because Db7 type aircraft are more likely to be used on targets other than in the AB, and that actually, in general, both side's infantry tend to leave the AB as soon as possible, and if an He111 is reported inbound even quicker, as 9 times out of 10 it will attempt to hit the AB, whereas, there's not often a lot of ei for you - or us - to hit in our respective AB's. It's a guess only, but I expect that's at the root of it.

It may, just as easily be a stat's porked issue, or as you say, a problem with the He111's bombs, however, when I've caught in the open by one dropping a stick around me, I'm invariably at least wounded and usually dead! Of course, the other way you can more easily test this is to come over to the allies one evening, and stand in the middle of an AB with an infantry unit, and see what happens when the 1st stick lands in the AB. That too should allay your fears that there's a fault with the bomb. My guess is that it's either porked stats or the general way in which the two aircraft types are used, which is a little diffierent.

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foe2

I know the last patch(the one rolled back) had a major HE fix that meant that all HE weapons were to throw out more shrapnel and thus become more deadly.   I suspect the reason that the DB7 has more kills on riflemen is because its far easier to drop a single bomb  on a CP and blow it in than in is in a He111.  

 

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Elfin

With HE 111 (CAS)

The consistences for me are bridge bombing, fb veh spawn destruction, near 100 % on attempt.

ei, et's in ab's and such...very little success with kills. 10% (?), despite similar process

aaa's, a bit more success in ab area (more vulnerable?)

Thoughts:

As a player who utilizes the HE 111 a fair bit. I have often wondered how, as axis players report "many ei in the ab", my multi bomb runs result in few, if any,  EI deaths. However, with AAA, often I get a kill or two. With tanks, a direct hit will do it, but even a "picometre" off and no deal...no kill, though 2 or 3 bombs are dropped just that "picometre" off, they happily live on, usually. lol.

The last patch, now withdrawn,....with the new HE  loadouts...resulted, (in the brief time it was available) quite a few more kills with the few runs I and a few others did. Admittedly, a very short time frame.

For me....with the HE 111, trying to knock out an enemy fms is pretty difficult, though vehicle spawns at fb's go down fine. There are allied pilots who are quite good at the elimination of fms...

Not sure if it's the plane (bomb effect versus type of unit), or they have a giant screen (can see much better and so more precise), or are just  UBER of pilots (seasoned vets), or perhaps  all those and some other factors.
 

Just some thoughts and observations from my N=1 study

S!

 

 

 

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tcooper

 

Bombs are buggy at the moment in general. Since the server tracked objects system was introduced, regularly about 50% of the bombs impacting are not registered for damage.

To confirm it, I had JCD once buzzard-video record me flying a 190 JaBo, dropping a 250 kg bomb right on a Matilda. Was also video recorded from my perspective. Did not even get a registered hit notification on my debriefing. It was a blank screen. No effect on the tank either.

!S

c00per

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Kidd27

I'd put this one on the shelf right now and wait to see if the new patch with HE fix makes a difference like Elfin said.

Certainly noted to keep an eye on. It seems off.

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tcooper
Posted (edited)

This morning I landed a perfect  direct hit with a 250 kg Stuka bomb on a Sherman at Ciney. Its turret flew away and he was clearly wrecked in a burning inferno. He was pretty far from the town still and not attacked by anyone else. So from what I can tell it was clearly my bomb that killed him.

 

On the debriefing I did not even get a damage on anything, let alone a kill.

 

So it might indeed be the case that stuff does get damaged and killed by bombs. But credits for the inflicted effect often ist not transfered to the bombers debriefing or stats. This would explain why troops on the ground still experience the effect of bombs as normal, but us pilots get to think we are much less effective.

 

Further testing is needed imo.

 

!S

c00per

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Kidd27
5 minutes ago, tcooper said:

This morning I landed a perfect  direct hit with a 250 kg Stuka bomb on a Sherman at Ciney. Its turret flew away and he was clearly wrecked in a burning inferno. He was pretty far from the town still and not attacked by anyone else. So from what I can tell it was clearly my bomb that killed him.

 

On the debriefing I did not even get a damage on anything, let alone a kill.

 

So it might indeed be the case that stuff does get damaged and killed by bombs. But credits for the inflicted effect often ist not transfered to the bombers debriefing or stats. This would explain why troops on the ground still experience the effect of bombs as normal, but us pilots get to think we are much less effective.

 

Further testing is needed imo.

 

!S

c00per

Good info c00p. Check your stats again, on the off chance stats are "catching up" to the event later on.

A little perplexing.. would this have started after the rollback patch?

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tcooper
2 minutes ago, Kidd27 said:

Good info c00p. Check your stats again, on the off chance stats are "catching up" to the event later on.

A little perplexing.. would this have started after the rollback patch?

 

No, it was something I generally noticed for a longer time already. Ever since the server-tracked objects system was implemented.

 

And from what little bombing I did during those two days or whatever, it was also occuring during the rolled back version 1.36.9.

 

!S

c00per

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vanapo
On 5/9/2021 at 3:52 PM, tcooper said:

Further testing is needed imo.

Fully agree. But I'd say as well, let's wait for the HE patch to roll out first and test afterwards or we might have to test everything twice. It's really demotivating for me in the meantime though. Trucking bombs around with not even hits being credited seems like a complete waste of time and is ceraintly nothing you should put into your stream ;)

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undercova

HE111 is only successful vs. structures.

If you try to kill manned ground targets ... AAs are the best ... all other stuff is a waste of time mostly

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slamen

let me tell you axis guys what occurs when an HE111 approaches...

The text of "111" is spammed and all allied infantry players who have played for more than a day move into hard cover.

The droning sound of the 111 then the whistling bombs incoming gives people 20 seconds to get out of the way.

Last time I was on, this happened in Boulion... HE111 approached.... text went out... bout 8 of us on the north end went inside...

bang bang bang bang bang bang bang bang....

all clear.. resume.

Had a noob state on text that the bomber almost killed him... he was quickly given instructions to not stand out side when 111's are dropping.... So he has been educated now.

 

Now earlier in the day.... us allies were defending a town down south near mont....

i was in a destroyed depot upstairs guarding the entrance... out side several jabos and stukas buzzing about.

cooper dropped a bomb right into the opening of the roof for my depot.   His bomb landed on the second floor.  For a split second, I saw the bomb at the other end of the building before ....all black.

That's not the first time I've seen a german bomb in front of me before being vaporized.

 

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Mosizlak
10 minutes ago, slamen said:

let me tell you axis guys what occurs when an HE111 approaches...

The text of "111" is spammed and all allied infantry players who have played for more than a day move into hard cover.

The droning sound of the 111 then the whistling bombs incoming gives people 20 seconds to get out of the way.

Last time I was on, this happened in Boulion... HE111 approached.... text went out... bout 8 of us on the north end went inside...

bang bang bang bang bang bang bang bang....

all clear.. resume.

Had a noob state on text that the bomber almost killed him... he was quickly given instructions to not stand out side when 111's are dropping.... So he has been educated now.

 

Now earlier in the day.... us allies were defending a town down south near mont....

i was in a destroyed depot upstairs guarding the entrance... out side several jabos and stukas buzzing about.

cooper dropped a bomb right into the opening of the roof for my depot.   His bomb landed on the second floor.  For a split second, I saw the bomb at the other end of the building before ....all black.

That's not the first time I've seen a german bomb in front of me before being vaporized.

 

Yeah, boom boom boom and nothing dies unless it's infantry who happen to get caught in a building in it's undamaged state LOL.  Sooooo scary. 

All I thought when I saw a 111 when I played allied is that I hope it makes it to town so I can blast it out of the sky for an easy kill. 

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delems

*** All I thought when I saw a 111 when I played allied is that I hope it makes it to town so I can blast it out of the sky for an easy kill. 

The few times I play allied, I can't spawn AA fast enough when I hear 111 or Stuka near.  Complete joke is correct.

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tcooper
19 hours ago, slamen said:

cooper dropped a bomb right into the opening of the roof for my depot.   His bomb landed on the second floor.  For a split second, I saw the bomb at the other end of the building before ....all black.

 

 

 

That is interesting to hear, as I have only two times killed the player named "slamen" in this campaign as far as I know. Both times you were in a Sherman and I killed you with the Stuka G2 tank buster cannons.

This could further proof that the bombs indeed just have a stats / data transfer bug on what damage they caused as described further above by me.

 

I have three questions for you for further investigation, Slamen:

 

1.) Are you abosoutly sure it was me who dropped the bomb that killed you? Did you get a confirmed killer in your debriefing stating it was me? Your stats dont show such an event.

2.) Did you maybe use an alternative account? This would explain why I can not find any data on it. I dont need the accounts name if you want to keep it secret, a simple yes/no is enough. :)

3.) If you did use an alternative account and dont mind anyone else knowing its name, it would be interesting to know the exact time of this event (mission end time), as I dont remember it.

 

Thank you in advance! :)

c00per

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undercova

the problem with bombs in this game ... well explosion at all ... they can be easily deflected / stopped by a wall or standing "behind" it. behind it ? go to the vehicle tent of a FB. place the satchel on the pole (shape of a triangle) and then step behind it ... so the explosion takes place on the other side of the pole. you can even stand right next to it ... but just behind it ... and nothing will happen to you at all

same is for bombs. just go behind a wall. and even when the bomb just hits the ground 1m next to you ... you only have to be behind a wall. there is nothing like the devastating shock wave that would rupture your lungs or hurt you really bad at least.

so dropping bombs in an already flattened town => useless. your chance to kill someone is less than 1%

 

it would be nice there are 2 ways of calculating bomb damage:

- the shrapnels like we already have

- a blast radius that ignores walls and hurts you depending on your distance to impact point. this could also be used to hurt tank crews which should imo. the current system that you need to have a direct hit on a medium or heavy tank to kill it is absurd

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fidd
27 minutes ago, undercova said:

it would be nice there are 2 ways of calculating bomb damage:

- the shrapnels like we already have

- a blast radius that ignores walls and hurts you depending on your distance to impact point. this could also be used to hurt tank crews which should imo. the current system that you need to have a direct hit on a medium or heavy tank to kill it is absurd

If blast radius took no account of intervening walls, it'd be at least as unrealistic as the current problem. There are dozens and dozens accounts of even 1000kg bombs detonating fairly close to buildings, where civilians during the Blitz were sheltering in the under-stair cupboard - structurally the safest place in the house - and survived because the blast failed to knock down the wall, and was therefore reflected by it, therefore not creating the baro-trauma injuries that would have occurred were the person in the open. Blast was very capricious in effect, and to speak of a blast-radius without considering the effects of walls/earth-banks etc, is to completely misunderstand the nature of blast, and the likelihood of death or injury consequent from it. By the advent of the V2, the majority of those killed and injured, were not killed by shrapnel, nor by blast, but either by the impact of falling debris, or being buried alive by it and suffocating as a result. A bit like an avalanche in that respect.

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jwilly
53 minutes ago, undercova said:

- a blast radius that ignores walls and hurts you depending on your distance to impact point. this could also be used to hurt tank crews which should imo.

Overpressure fronts and shockwaves both are substantially blocked by impedance changes...walls, armor shells, whatever...that they do not shatter/collapse and destroy. It is a misunderstanding of the relevant physics to think that "blast" (overpressure/shockwave) should hurt persons on the other side of an un-shattered/collapsed barrier merely because those persons are close to the point of detonation, if that barrier is wide or encompassing enough to prevent the overpressure/shockwave effect from reaching those persons, and structurally anchored and/or massive enough that the overpressure/shockwave does not accelerate the barrier to a substantial part of the overpressure front/shockwave velocity.

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slamen
2 hours ago, tcooper said:

 

That is interesting to hear, as I have only two times killed the player named "slamen" in this campaign as far as I know. Both times you were in a Sherman and I killed you with the Stuka G2 tank buster cannons.

This could further proof that the bombs indeed just have a stats / data transfer bug on what damage they caused as described further above by me.

 

I have three questions for you for further investigation, Slamen:

 

1.) Are you abosoutly sure it was me who dropped the bomb that killed you? Did you get a confirmed killer in your debriefing stating it was me? Your stats dont show such an event.

2.) Did you maybe use an alternative account? This would explain why I can not find any data on it. I dont need the accounts name if you want to keep it secret, a simple yes/no is enough. :)

3.) If you did use an alternative account and dont mind anyone else knowing its name, it would be interesting to know the exact time of this event (mission end time), as I dont remember it.

 

Thank you in advance! :)

c00per

Interesting... So i'm reaching through my memory...the town wasn't near mont... and it was british....

The town was Beivre... in the Beivre Gedinne depot...  I was standing up stairs in the broken depot.... looking east at the opening where the stairs were.... i saw the bomb enter the building on the east side (through the open hole in the roof).

It was 1 or 2 nights before you got me with your StukaG2.

The "killed by" was credited to you.  No alt account.  I was a Sten MG at the time.  I was going back n forth taking that depot...killing the normal axis ground players...getting killed by the same axis players during tz3.

 

I just checked my stats... one death in a sten smg to a stuka. 

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tcooper
1 hour ago, slamen said:

Interesting... So i'm reaching through my memory...the town wasn't near mont... and it was british....

The town was Beivre... in the Beivre Gedinne depot...  I was standing up stairs in the broken depot.... looking east at the opening where the stairs were.... i saw the bomb enter the building on the east side (through the open hole in the roof).

It was 1 or 2 nights before you got me with your StukaG2.

The "killed by" was credited to you.  No alt account.  I was a Sten MG at the time.  I was going back n forth taking that depot...killing the normal axis ground players...getting killed by the same axis players during tz3.

 

I just checked my stats... one death in a sten smg to a stuka. 

 

Thank you for the infos, that helped.

I cross-checked our stats based on your data. Unfortunately it didnt show any real correlation in terms of playtime with you using a Sten and me flying a Stuka or any other plane armed with a bomb at the same time.

I did however find this:

rightarrow.png May 11 22:59 - 23:01 ezeebake88 (Ju87) Bievre Bievre AB Defense British Sten Mk II Submachine Gunner 59 3 7 0 KIA 1

 

I was hoping to find evidence for my theory, but it seems like this is not the case here...

Thanks for your help anyway. :)

 

!S

c00per

 

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vanapo
On 5/15/2021 at 10:04 PM, fidd said:

Blast was very capricious in effect, and to speak of a blast-radius without considering the effects of walls/earth-banks etc, is to completely misunderstand the nature of blast, and the likelihood of death or injury consequent from it.

 

On 5/15/2021 at 10:04 PM, fidd said:

the majority of those killed and injured, were not killed by shrapnel, nor by blast, but either by the impact of falling debris

 

You both do realize that in the real world a bomb will do damage to obstacles and might collapse a house that's allready in its "damaged" state, generate a myriad of shrapnel (not only a few dozens like we have right now), some of which might even penetrate obstacles or ricochet from them? To argue bomb damage against soft targets is somewhat accurate right now is completely ridiculous. A bofors can get a direct hit, standing in a black crater afterwards and still fire without any interruption. If seen it just the other day again. Of course, a direct 250kg hit will kill one of the 2 important crew members most of the time. But it is not guaranteed to kill both fully exposed crew members every time. And that explains everything you need to know about the bomb damage we have right now. It is relying on way too few shrapnels which are blocked by way too many things (like tents and cardboard, literally). Testing bomb damage by dropping 1 bomb is not enough as every bomb explosion is kind of a lottery with way too few lots. It's like shooting a tank from a random angle at a random distance once and by the result of that one shot derive that the damage model of the tank is completely correct.

I hate to admit, but I am more and more under the impression that bomb damage based on generated shrapnels will never work correctly in the current state of the game as we have already seen that increasing bomb loadouts and thus the amount of shrapnels flying around leads to big performance problems and can not be handled by the system. Thus, an overpressure/splash damage zone might be the less realistic approach, but it might offer way more realistic results than we have now.

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fidd

I actually agree with you undercova. My concern is that a pure area-effect, rather than shrapnel based calculation, is likely to create some very odd situations. For my 2c, I'd like to see a lot more shrapnel generated and tracked, however, to have an area-effect concussion/knock infantry flat of some seconds, during which period all the additional shrapnel calculations are done. IE by extending the period during which shrapnel is generated/tracked to a couple of seconds of so, rather than the instantaneous calculation we have now, it might be possible to have a lot more shrapnel generated and tracked without overtaxing the server. As soft-targets within the area-effect of the bomb are concussed/unable to move, drive or push, this means they're unable to move clear whilst during the slightly extended period of shrapnel calculations, whilst also providing a suppressive effect.

That's how I'd do it.

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