Focus Test: Plane Yaw

[GOPHUR]

All planes have had a yaw audit to address the "flop" in the flight model. Check back here after we open the test server for more information.

[DOC]

Please note the following:

Aircraft can still be made to depart at low speeds, and even at higher speeds when you push (pull) them around enough. That is expected behaviour. If you model flight, you have to include departure from controlled flight, because that is a risk involved with real flight when doing abrupt manoeuvres.

The "yaw fix" is intended to make inadvertant departure (the so called flop) as a result of accidental overemployment of the rudder/elevator in conjunction with an over active MoI in the yaw plane of axis, less of an issue. Part of that is also allowing the pilot a better more controlled feel for the rudder in respect of accidental PiO effects.

The end result of the changes is best summed up by one of the closed beta team members who takes an active role in flight characteristics and their science:

(from BmBm)

"Combat implications of the Yaw Fix in WWIIOL:BE v1.29

The WWIIOL:BE flight model is largely viewed as one of the industry’s top offerings with a great deal of organic fidelity and honesty, while at the same time suffering from certain shortcomings borne out of a iterative design process. Its most glaring issue and one that has plagued the FM since day one is its yaw handling, or how it deals with rudder play. With the upcoming version 1.29 the developers have found time to address this issue and arrived at a partial solution that does away with most of the distressing factors.

IOW, DOC has fixed much of the long-standing yaw issues and reduced the ”Flop” to a much more benign state. The yaw fix benefits all fighter and fighter-bomber aircraft to various degrees. Here is the low down on the changes and what it means from a pilot perspective.

Rudder, what rudder?

Because the use of rudder has been associated with so much fear and loathing in WWIIOL:BE, many pilots have ceased to use it or never bothered to learn the utility of yaw in the first place. This is a crying shame, as control of yaw is a fundamental factor of flying and combat: a lack of yaw is comparable to a lack of elevator authority in terms of flight and fight physics.

What used to happen is that full rudder input would cause the aircraft to roll more than yaw, and often cause a violent departure. Furthermore, yaw was more or less uniform regardless of airspeed: full rudder at max level speed would yield almost as much yaw as it would at stall speed. All of this combined to make rudder play a sensitive business and because of the catastrophic results of hamfistedness and over-excitement, pilots shied away from using rudder at all.

Goodbye, Flop

The Flop, or a dramatic and violent departure from normal flight at any airspeed as a result of rudder application, has now been much reduced. The greatest sufferers of the Flop, the Bf 109 and Bf 110 series, the Bell Mle 14 (P39) and Blenheim Mk IF, are also the greatest benefactors of the yaw fix. While it is still possible to induce a bad Flop, normal use of rudder in typical combat situations is now possible. Aircraft such as the Spitfire and Hurricane series were all but immune to the Flop, whereas the French aircraft could and did suffer it to some degree.

The one thing you will want to avoid, is to give full rudder input in a turning, climbing contest at anything from stall to corner speed. This WILL cause you to depart violently – as it should!

Greetings, Strafer

Coming down to strafe a moving truck the intrepid close air support pilot would hitherto have to draw accurate lead and avoid using rudder at all, or presently find himself gouging pretty holes in the ground. With the yaw fix, ALL aircraft can correct a strafing approach and hold it with the application of rudder. This is a major improvement for the pilot, though perhaps not quite as welcome for the PBI. Note that you will have to counteract a rolling tendency with a spot of opposite aileron – this is normal and expected.

Yaw that shot

The head-on attack, despite its dismal odds and less than tactically brilliant approach to air combat, now rises to the fore as the pilot can actually fly offset from a pure collision course and use rudder to yaw his sight forward in the bandit’s path. IOW, instead of going directly head-on, you can now fly on a parallel track and use rudder to draw lead, thus avoiding the collision while still giving yourself a shot opportunity. This is a major improvement as a result of the yaw fix, and works like a charm when you are saddled up behind a target too. Use your rudder to fishtail, or hose your gunfire from wingtip to wingroot, without fear of falling from the sky.

Aerobatics, sho’nuff

The yaw fix has made aerobatics and advanced combat manoeuvres possible where they were formerly tricky at best and downright lethal at worst. You could do a Boat Turn – full rudder turn with opposite aileron to stay level - before, though not quite as easily as presently (it is not terribly useful in combat, but nice enough to know about). You could fly on the Knife Edge - wing down, full opposite rudder – momentarily: now you can do it almost as long as you like. You could do your Hammerhead – a steep zoom to stall speed with a deft wingover conversion to the dive – though not very well: now it is a joy to execute. Same thing with Loops and Cuban-Eights – go crazy with 1.29.

Lag roll attacks made possible

Coming in hot on a turning H-87, the FW 190 driver can now draw full use of his rudder in a lag roll attack. In the zoom and roll-away to the lag position, the FW, floating inverted, can stomp rudder and cut down to the dive with much greater authority and fine control than previously. Same thing applies for the H-87 booming in on a turning 109F of course, or any other match-up. Get used to your rudder!

Differences and similarities

All fighters and fighter-bombers have been subjected to scrutiny, and have had varying doses of yaw fixage applied. The aircraft that were most prone to yaw issues has been given the most medicine, whereas the aircraft that were largely stable have had less. All crates have improved considerably, which is most notable when strafing and when applying moderate amount of rudder in circling fights. DOC has endeavoured to retain specific aircraft ”flavour” while administering the yaw fix, therefore no single aircraft is exactly the same in terms of yaw performance. This is important to remember, and one of the reasons why WWIIOL:BE is such a convincing game to play – it is not Red vs Blue, but always a challenge."

Enjoy!

Johan ”bmbm” Kylander

Day One Addict and Beta Tester

[snpshot]

OK I got in and did some things in the 109f that would normally make it depart. The plane protested, came close to departing, but didn't flop. The one time I did get it to depart I centered the controls and was able to regain control with a few seconds. Not like before where the proper input made the situation even worse. Another positive is that it seems as if the 109's nose settles quickly, so some of the wobble has been fixed. I did notice though, that rudder input still wants to make the 109f roll over vs actually yaw. All in all the planes "feel" much better. More testing needs to be done, but there is some improvement with this fix.

[DOC]

Roll is always present as a consequence of yaw. Aircraft will always have a tendancy to roll in the direction of rudder deflection. This is why they roll faster with rudder included in the aileron deflection. In the past (in this game) you might depart unintentionally easily from using the rudder combined with aileron or elevator deflection. The changes were designed to eliminate this problem (departure when assisting manouevres using the rudder) ... to some degree at least.

[snpshot]

Yeah I tried whacking the rudder around in rolls, barrel rolls etc. It behaves much better now.

[keinmann]

Overall, I am very largely impressed with the handling of the rudder/yaw issues. I will be the first to tell anyone who asks it is MUCH better than it used to be. However, there are a few things that concern me:

1) I heard this from many other folks too; that the rudder is very, very sluggish to return to neutral. It is also very sluggish to extend to left/right in the first place. Is this the main way the flop/departure rudder problems were fixed/audited? Just by slowing down the control input? I'm very curious about how this was done. On the other hand, I have noticed that the stall and departures are much better modeled and much more realistic even for things outside the rudders. For instance, a vertical climb until you stalll no longer results in a ridiculous flop, but a very realistic nose down stall. You must really dog it out to get those wild flops now.

I've got a pretty good degree of programming experience and knowledge, so you can explain it to me technically, if you would be so kind. You don't have to dumb it down. I'd just really like to know how all this works now, but I must say, "MUCH BETTER THAN BEFORE!", or "GFJ CRS! WHOOO!!!!" lolz! I hope that at least the return to neutral could be sped up. If you think about it, the airflow over the fuselage would push the rudder to neutral very quickly, alone. However, I can understand it being a bit sluggish to extend to one side. Back then, control input was done totally by the muscle power of the pilot, for the most part. Sometimes they had some type of mechanical or hydraulic assistance, but it was nothing like the "fly-by-wire" planes of the modern day, in which the pilot puts in an electrical signal for his control input and the surfaces are moved sheerly by mechanical/hydraulic, or even sometimes pneumatic means. (Lol, I heard one USAF pilot talking about flying modern fighters...he said, "Now we dont actually fly or control our planes. We (pilots) are simply a voting member of the flight control system." heheh! So, IRL, yes, it would be kind of slow to extend your rudder to either side, but it really should snap neutral abruptly. I hope at least that can be adjusted/fixed. I wouldnt think that would take much more than altering some numbers in the control function.

2) I'm still seeing that a pure rudder input results in more roll than yaw. It is a good bit better than it used to be, but it shouldnt be rolling so much. You can still do a pure rudder barrel roll. Of course, when using rudders it causes more drag on one side of the plane than the other, but what we see in 1.29 is far more dramatic than it should be. When I've used rudders in real life aircraft, it has a very nice degree of yaw, and only a tiny tiny bit of roll which can be countered by only the slightest tilt of the yoke/stick. You actually can counter the roll on here by tilting the stick in the oposite direction, but it takes too much counter control. I really do hope this can be fixed up too if at all possible before release. But, once again, I will say you darned RATs have really impressed me, and I love the improvements.

[Khsolo]

I used to have a lot of low speed control in Dewo and Bell, now its seems low speed is very difficult to handle while is a lot more stable at high speeds

Weird

[beeger]

I love the fix!** Closest thing we've ever had to real flight since I started.* The "flop" some allude to I suspect is what I would call an accelerated stall where the airplane loses lift at a speed well above normal due to decreased upward lift and increased lift to the inside of the turn e.g. what some are calling roll.* Anyway, that's the way I would have explained it to some clueless student just before I took him up to demonstrate the accelerated stalls and the capability of his lunch to just float in front of his face for a couple of seconds.* I wouldn't say I tested the entire flight envelope but what I did find was that as someone said, if you attempt any high angles of bank (to make tight turns) at speeds below 300 kph in a 190 or 110 you're going to flop right into the ground - that's very realistic as any RL pilot will tell you.* One thing I noticed is that the ball seemed to be nailed to the center cage no matter what bank I threw in - this is good.* No skid or slip indicated by the ball moving to the outside or inside and you're in coordinated flight which is good.* I really couldn't perceive that I needed to add any rudder as long as my speed was high enough.* I didn't see the damn AOA and slip indicator we've had forever in the upper left - Good, hated that.* Makes you try to fly by inside instead of by outside references.* Overall excellent improvement for the air minded and I suspect that the LW will love it most because when I flew the LW birds they reminded me quite a bit about how the Allied birds fly.** Geez I could even track straight with the 110 instead of taking off in a circle as though my wing was tied to a pylon.* This could bring on some really classic dogfights.Thanksvon Beeg

[DOC]

You make a very astute observation there. Most that are gnashing their teeth have only flown around solo and are focussing on what they perceive to be a loss of ability. They have however, no true combat frame of referance. One of the things I made sure of when we were doing this update in closed beta, was to make sure that the changes were logged inside a combat frame of referance.

Once these guys get into some veins in their teeth hair on fire balls to the wall combat, they may understand how much better this change is across the flight envelope, rather than just in that one thing they don't think they can do anymore.

Some will still not like it, but change does bring that out in those who are really experienced at something before it changed. Change always brings with it some resistance. The telling thing ... as always ... will be when someone who has no experience to form his perception from, and sticks around because he likes what he just found.

[angriff]

Actually I am sort of a little closer to ok than this but it is a little sluggish almost feels like you a flying slow motion. I like that it does not slam you over and that will need some getting used to after flying for the entire 7+ years the other way.

Also I cannot seem to get it to reverse my rudder pedals. Even if I get the ! sign in front of the joystick 2 feeback report they still work backwards.

[angriff]

Actually I am sort of a little closer to ok than this but it is a little sluggish almost feels like you a flying slow motion. I like that it does not slam you over and that will need some getting used to after flying for the entire 7+ years the other way.

Also I cannot seem to get it to reverse my rudder pedals. Even if I get the ! sign in front of the joystick 2 feeback report they still work backwards.

Actually this is fixed now that I copied my old .cmfl file over then remapped it.

[alspecto]

I'm really happy with the fix! Everything does feel sluggish, but I think that's just because I need to adjust to the changes. I'm looking forward to trying this out in some combat situations.

One thing I did notice is that, at least in the new 109, the plane would suddenly veer off to the right on take off. I would be rolling quickly down the runway and just before I would normally start to pull back, the plane would veer off wickedly to the right. It did this so much that I could not get it to return to straight path. The only thing I could do was pull back and try to get it in the air before it rolled over. I was able to get it off the ground all but one time. Each take off would barely avoid the nose and right wing hitting the ground and going in.

[DOC]

You need to use a little rudder in your take off roll. The earliest 109s we built don't do this, but they probably should have.

[alspecto]

This isn't the normal case where you need to add a little bit of rudder to counteract the torque like with the 110 for example. This is a violent veer off to the right that no amount of rudder I tried will stop.

Essentially, my take off would go like this:

Start barreling down the runway

Add some left rudder as she starts to drift right

She straightens out so I hold rudder or relax it slightly

She suddenly veers right so badly that left rudder won't recover it

I'm using an X52. I saw there was some issues with those earlier, but everything seemed to work ok. Not sure if that helps. This happened last night so I was patched up until yesterday evening.

[DOC]

I can't replicate this you speak of, a sudden "spike" and veer off. I suspect it is your JS, or it's input that is spiking. Take off roll works normally for me. Always has. After several hundred take off rolls during the building of it, I'd have picked up on any sudden spike in the model itself. Rudder applied to correct torque drift, as speed rises and drift decreases ... ease off the rudder. Anybody else having issues like this, where rudder suddenly has no effect ?

PS: I have my rudders at default, ie: I have not reduced their input due to sensitvity issues with the flop in the "older" version of the FM. I fly with full rudder authority available, which might be something a lot of folks want to experiement with.

[alspecto]

I'll do some more testing to try to narrow down anything that I'm doing that could be creating the problem. Thanks for the reply Doc.

Edit: This is a fresh load of Vista and I have not limited the rudder at all. I key mapped everything manually from scratch so as not to muddy the waters with my cmfls and calibs from the live version that I also play on this PC. Still could be me so I'll play around some more.

[gmortars]

This may be a stupid question, but is my joystick yaw not supposed to work right now? I can't keymap it at all. As if the game doesn't recognize my MS Sidewinder in v1.29

[DOC]

Read the joystick thread. Known issue, being worked on. Since we fixed the excess yaw issue, you may want to have full joystick sensitivity anyway.

THIS THREAD HERE

[darkkis]

I'd like to echo keinmanns comment about rudder return - in high speeds the rudder returns to center position far too slowly after being released, it feels totally illogical.

[popeye0]

An observation that I noticed is that many people were/are using their original (1.28) "cfml" profiles. I found that for 1.29 making new profiles for aircraft was the way to go.

I tried my original "cfml" file and had the same old flop in some of the planes but when deleting the air profiles and starting new all is fine.

This is just a side note for info only.

[DOC]

Good point Popeye. Nobody should expect the .cmfl settings that they preferred previously to behave under the new less severe yaw moment in the same manner or have the same feel or charateristics. Getting the flight model to behave differently was an intentional goal of the changes, or the "flop" would never improve. It's probably imperitive in getting the best out of the flight model that you redo your .cfml settings.

It's what I did for my own flying, and probably what most of those who are enjoying it a lot have done also. I run with default settings and don't back off my rudder or elevator, and most skilled pilots want full ailerons operating at maximum effect at all times for good roll response.