Feedback: First Person Eye Heights

[catfive]

If I have a view and go to aim, I lose my view...

This is especially true in the new AB 'bunkers', all usefullness of the firing slits is lost due the 'headbob'.

It is bad enough to make me not want to play this new version in all seriousness.

I play rifleman a LOT usually and its a killer for riflemen imho.

I dont want to turn this into a whine post in any sense but it is bad enough to make rifleman no fun in a number of situations (again only imo).

[peegee77]

I was aware that something was not right with this, but it didn't really click until you posted about it. It is dreadful. If you pull the rifle up for an aimed shot it is as if you suddenly stand on tip-toes, and you POV rises a few inches. Then if you turn or move, it is like you are bouncing up and down on the tips of your toes. This has to be a priority for an early fix.

[geckopow]

I like the new feature, although it does need tweaked for the reasons stated above.

[gtanner]

I looked at this as well, i don't bob up an down constantly though only when the inf model turns with the new way infantry turn, well i assume it's new i haven't seen the only turn when they reach 180* before.

[GOPHUR]

It's the new combat stance. When you are in combat you are slightly lowered, this gives you decreased visibility in external, when you aim your weapon you stand up so you can shoot over the AB wall, same height as before.

We'll haev a feedback thread on this as we move into more testing.

[peegee77]

Is the external view in 1.31 offline the same as what another player would see if you were online? Because in 1.31 offline, the infantry model seen from an external view doesn't actually move up and down. The head is visible over the wall in both stances.

It is only in 1st person view that you appear to move up and down.

[GOPHUR]

C1 - This clone is in the default stance. He has heard no gunshotsso he is standing normally.

C2 - This is aiming. This is always the height when you aim your weapon.

C3 - This is the combat stance.

And on the wall. Left to right, combat, aiming and normal stances.

Edited January 13, 2010 by GOPHUR

[romzburg]

I think it is a bad idea to change the view when you bring rifle up to aim.

If you are standing in non-combat and bring rifle up, there is no change, good.

If you are standing in combat "hunch" or whatever, you should stay in that stance when you bring your rifle up.

Otherwise get rid of the hunch.

When you see something you want to shoot, you should be able to bring your rifle up and shoot it. If you are looking through foliage, this "feature" harms your game play.

It isn't helping gameplay, it is hurting gameplay in its current form, and it doesn't matter that it hasn't even been in-game yet, and it doesn't matter that I haven't gotten the offline beta to work well yet.

This is something you don't need to experience, you can just read about it and know it isn't good.

Either remove the stance, or add the ability to aim while in that stance.

[peegee77]

Thanks GOPHUR, nicely illustrated and explained. What I still don't understand: if you compare C1 and C2 (or C4 and C5) the heads are at the same height. BUT... from a 1st person view, the default stance cannot see over the wall, while the aiming stance can. How can the head be at a higher level in aiming stance for a 1st person view, but at the same level for a 3rd person view?

[peegee77]

This is what I am talking about:

[GOPHUR]

I want some more feedback on this.

Ok, talked to Ramp on this, here's some more info...

• in first person you are always at combat stance height
  
• aiming your weapon always raises it
  
• this is intended to give you better cover in combat stance and better vis when aiming (walls, grass, etc)
  
• lowering your weapon will set you to non combat stance in third person for everyone
  
• combat stance for other players is initiated on your client when in combat unless they have lowered weapon state flagged which overrides this
  

I'm pretty keen on the combat stance in third person, looks much better. I can also agree with ramp that having more movement in the FPS makes the trooper feel more alive and less like an eye point on rails type shooter.

I understand the feedback about interacting in bushes and we do a LOT of that.

I'd like to do some more play testing before I make any changes. Feedback welcome please.

[xanthus]

This is what I am talking about:

That 1st picture is combat stance. The height of the head is not the same; your eye line is over the wall and you can now see over it. Looks pretty much like how it would work in real life.

I can also agree with ramp that having more movement in the FPS makes the trooper feel more alive and less like an eye point on rails type shooter.

Agree 100%.

My two cents:

A lot of players are going to object or find it difficult to adapt any time existing functionality is significantly changed in a fundamental way, especially when players have been used to it for years and didn't perceive it as "broken".

I absolutely agree that the head-bob movements are a bit screwy when you rotate or move in certain ways. Definitely needs to be tweaked. But it's a fundamentally sound concept IMO.

It has to be taken into account that these new infantry stances, especially in FIRST persion are pretty much how it's done in a lot of modern first person shooters these days. Plenty of other online first person shooters do it this way guys (and many of them have WAY more head-bob than in 1.31).

"Insurgency" (great free HL2 mod)

LJhPms9zjbU

Edited January 15, 2010 by xanthus

[peegee77]

That 1st picture is combat stance

No, the 1st picture (top left) is default stance. What makes it even more confusing is that default stance, 1st person, has the weapon pointing forward while default stance, 3rd pesron, has the weapon sloped to the side.

I am not objecting to change in itself. My point is that, at the moment, if I am in default stance behind a wall I cannot see over it (and so would assume that I cannot be seen). But in fact, from a 3rd person view the other side of the wall my head is just as visible as if I was aiming.

Look at the stances again. Normal (default) stance, you can't see over the wall because your head appears to be below the top of the wall, but someone outside can see your head (and presumably shoot it) just the same as if you were in aiming stance.

[gigerman]

My $.02:

"Combat" should be the default stance, and non-combat should be assumed when no combat occurs within the specified time period, rather than the current "reverse." In either case, it would be better for the player to have control over it—don't like my avatar doing things without my "consent."

Not certain at the moment, but I believe the "aim" posture isn't actually bringing the rifle sights up to his eye, where it should be.

Better "wall" solution is to allow the player to "pop up," via the lean mechanic—leaning "up" to look over the wall—or "duck," by "leaning down." Depends which is the default posture—straight or "combat." "Ducking" could also apply when prone. "Leaning" is faster than "aiming," making it more efficient for quick looks. Since "lean" is working better in 1.31, now's the time to expand

[Vampress]

I'd like for infantry to be able to vary their height by a few feet by default....

they can just put a crate under their feet that grows smaller or bigger to compensate for the going higher or lower

the BIGGEST problem in game now is the lack of ability for infantry to DO ANYTHING remotely close to what can be done in real life...if the tiptoes don't do the trick in R/L infantry will find something to stand on and THIS SHOULD BE MODELED in game

[Werkelijk]

I agree with the lean function allowing you to lean up when crouched down. or prone.

I noticed 3rd person model of using binocs makes you sit higher than if aiming down the sights prone, but in first person view they both as same view height.

[frantish]

I have been trying to adapt to the new movement, but Xan hit the nail:

A lot of players are going to object or find it difficult to adapt any time existing functionality is significantly changed in a fundamental way, especially when players have been used to it for years and didn't perceive it as "broken".

I absolutely agree that the head-bob movements are a bit screwy when you rotate or move in certain ways. Definitely needs to be tweaked. But it's a fundamentally sound concept IMO.

It has to be taken into account that these new infantry stances, especially in FIRST persion are pretty much how it's done in a lot of modern first person shooters these days. Plenty of other online first person shooters do it this way guys (and many of them have WAY more head-bob than in 1.31).

It really drives me NUTS!!!!!

(I might change my name to Squirrel!)

In some spots, such as under obstacles, especially the pillbox, it really screws up your POV.

...

There has to be a way to NOT get into that stance if the player does not want to.

or some other method...

[GOPHUR]

I agree with the lean function allowing you to lean up when crouched down. or prone.

I noticed 3rd person model of using binocs makes you sit higher than if aiming down the sights prone, but in first person view they both as same view height.

yeah us too. It is not currently up for discussion.