Feedback - No Fire Zone

[GOPHUR]

This thread is for players who have participated in our Focus Test - Infantry Fight.

Please give feedback on the following:

No Fire Zone

Players who are in an enemy infantry spawn point will receive a message that they are unable to fire.

[mcketten]

This thread is for players who have participated in our Focus Test - Infantry Fight.

Please give feedback on the following:

No Fire Zone

Players who are in an enemy infantry spawn point will receive a message that they are unable to fire.

worked perfectly as near as i could tell. liked it a lot.

[mevan]

worked perfectly as near as i could tell. liked it a lot.

Agreed.

[MOTORMOUTH]

I had Hicks run around the top floor and he reported that all seemed to be working as it should.

[geckopow]

I had Hicks run around the top floor and he reported that all seemed to be working as it should.

Yep worked for me, damn annoying too, since i could not fire, then the message appeared! so we all ran out teh building and got killed rofl.

[hick]

Hick MM, HICK! No "S".

The only thing I would like to see is it extended to the roof proper maybe (the little balcony already is no-fire) to prevent folks from sitting right outside the top 2 doors shooting in.

[peegee77]

If possible it needs to be tidied up a little around the FB inf spawn... in some places just outside the tents it prevents you from placing charges.

My personal view is that no fire zones and spawn protection - maybe in the form of timers - should be extended and developed. Far too high a proportion of kills in WWIIOL come from spawn camping.

[fade]

The good thing about free fire is you can clean the enemy out of your depos and thus clear the ei radar.

With a no fire zone for everyone any number of ei can camp inside a depo and wait there till everyone gets bored waiting for them to come out then go cap. Respawn back into the depo and rinse and repeat. Many towns would have ei radar showing and you couldnt tell which ones are under attack or which ones just have ei sitting in a depo from the map. You would not be able to tell which towns are under attack by ei or which ones just have ei sitting in a depo other than to check the depo but even then is it just the ei in the depo setting off inf radar or are there other ei coming to town. It would be just plan annoying to have ei in your town and you can do nothing about it. I understand the reason for the no fire zone but I dont think this current trade-off is good. Not being able to clear the town of enemy infantry to me is a bad bad thing.

A fix would be only the owning side of the depo can free fire. A enemy sitting in a depo owned by another country is forced into a no fire zone.

Having a hard time explaining my concern. Hope someone can make heads or tails out of my rambling.

[gtanner]

The good thing about free fire is you can clean the enemy out of your depos and thus clear the ei radar.

With a no fire zone for everyone any number of ei can camp inside a depo and wait there till everyone gets bored waiting for them to come out then go cap. Respawn back into the depo and rinse and repeat. Many towns would have ei radar showing and you couldnt tell which ones are under attack or which ones just have ei sitting in a depo from the map. You would not be able to tell which towns are under attack by ei or which ones just have ei sitting in a depo other than to check the depo but even then is it just the ei in the depo setting off inf radar or are there other ei coming to town. It would be just plan annoying to have ei in your town and you can do nothing about it. I understand the reason for the no fire zone but I dont think this current trade-off is good. Not being able to clear the town of enemy infantry to me is a bad bad thing.

A fix would be only the owning side of the depo can free fire. A enemy sitting in a depo owned by another country is forced into a no fire zone.

Having a hard time explaining my concern. Hope someone can make heads or tails out of my rambling.

I got that you think all depos have disabled fire... that's not how it currently works.

Only ENEMY spawn points (fb inside inf tents, inside upstairs of enemy depos).

Basically the no fire zone is just stopping people from firing in places they shouldnt be as defined by CRS.. or that's my understanding but I have been drinking.

EDIT: I'll edit because i think i've completely missed what you're trying to say here, sorry .

You can still persumably kill anyone, anywhere you just cannot fire whilst in a non-fire zone AKA a place you shouldnt be.

Edited April 6, 2010 by gtanner

[fade]

Yes I did think that all depos had no fire zones for all regardless of ownership. If this is not the case then I was wrong and none of this applies....oops...

Edited April 6, 2010 by fade

[gtanner]

Yes I did think that all depos had no fire zones for all regardless of ownership. If this is not the case then I was wrong and none of this applies....oops...

"No Fire" Zones In our continued effort to promote fun and fair gameplay, coders and artists at CRS have developed the new "No Fire" zone. This previously unannounced addition to 1.31 means that if a soldier finds himself in an enemy infantry spawn point (FB, Barracks, Spawn Depot) his weapons will be rendered useless. On the multi-story spawn buildings, this will only affect the upper floors where infantry enter the world. Following a warning message on his HUD that he is in an enemy spawn zone, firing of any weapon will be disabled. At best he will have to resort to harsh language and rude hand gestures. Infantry can now feel safe from being ambushed when they spawn inside their own depots.

Direct quote from http://www.battlegroundeurope.com/index.php/component/content/article/10-production-notes/3544-131-more-than-just-eyecandy

[fade]

Only affect the upper floors where infantry enter the world is what threw me off track. Thank, sorry for wasting everyones time.

Edited April 6, 2010 by fade

[DOC]

For feedback regarding issues the new feature might raise

[romzburg]

Here is the issue: (and please read the WHOLE post before forming any reply, it is all interconnected.)

You are in a depot that is NOT a linking depot to an enemy town, that is, it is not one of the enemy's spawnables.

The enemy captures that flag.

You are now in a No Fire Zone, even though the depot you are in is a link to a friendly town and is NOT an enemy spawnable.

You can no longer shoot out the windows at EI who may be swarming the AB in plain sight.

You can no longer shoot EI who are perched in adjacent buildings in destroyed state in plain sight shooting down into your AB.

You can no longer shoot at the actual enemy Spawnable Depot and suppress those EI and ATGs as your teammates work to lib and clear the town.

That is the problem.

GOPHUR said you shouldn't be able to stay there and shoot since the enemy cant come up to kill you, but that makes no sense.

They can't come up and kill you when the flag is yours, so what's the difference?

It also doesn't make sense, because if I can see an EI to shoot him, he can also see me to shoot me. He doesn't need to come up there to do it. Tanks can shoot in. Grenades can fly in. Bullets can shoot in. Bombs can come in.

And, lastly, it makes no sense because it is flat out false. If the enemy on the ground close to that depot chooses to despawn and respawn, he will respawn, wait for it...IN THE SAME DEPOT. I have been killed many times by a player who did this.

The whole point of the No Fire Zone was to prevent a player from standing at the spawn point and camping players who are not even in the game world yet.

The unintended consequence is that players who SHOULD be able to continue playing, trying to kill EI outside and suppress EI in order to be a team player and help the re-cappers, can no longer shoot.

If we *must* have No Fire Zones (and there *are* better ways to achieve the one true goal) then they should be limited to actual enemy spawnables that are the main spawns, the links to the enemy towns, and then those No Fire Zones should be in effect ONLY when the enemy also has the FB in question, if there is an FB.

The Depots that are "Spawnables", as in links to enemy towns are the ones that get 99% of enemy spawn-ins. The others where enemy choose to despawn/respawn while close are not often used that way, and therefore are not an issue for a player camping the spawn spot. He will get bored to death.

So the new game mechanic has bad consequences that it should not have.

Frankly, I'd rather deal with an occasional spawn-camper than this, which will affect me a lot more often.

_______________

Ya know, at first Romsburg, you rubbed me the wrong way and I wasn't a fan. But over the past 12 months, you have really grown on me. You're precise, well spoken and although you are sometimes a little harsh, you are most often correct and in proper context with your responses.

indeed he's one of the few voices of common sense on these forums

I can't say [any]thing else [than] that the ban was justified considering that you have an 'impressive' TOS history....

The only thing worse than being talked about is *not* being talked about.

Edited April 6, 2010 by romzburg

[bullet]

agreeed

[romzburg]

Here is the issue: (and please read the WHOLE post before forming any reply, it is all interconnected.)

You are in a depot that is NOT a linking depot to an enemy town, that is, it is not one of the enemy's spawnables.

The enemy captures that flag.

You are now in a No Fire Zone, even though the depot you are in is a link to a friendly town and is NOT an enemy spawnable.

You can no longer shoot out the windows at EI who may be swarming the AB in plain sight.

You can no longer shoot EI who are perched in adjacent buildings in destroyed state in plain sight shooting down into your AB.

You can no longer shoot at the actual enemy Spawnable Depot and suppress those EI and ATGs as your teammates work to lib and clear the town.

That is the problem.

GOPHUR said you shouldn't be able to stay there and shoot since the enemy cant come up to kill you, but that makes no sense.

They can't come up and kill you when the flag is yours, so what's the difference?

It also doesn't make sense, because if I can see an EI to shoot him, he can also see me to shoot me. He doesn't need to come up there to do it. Tanks can shoot in. Grenades can fly in. Bullets can shoot in. Bombs can come in.

And, lastly, it makes no sense because it is flat out false. If the enemy on the ground close to that depot chooses to despawn and respawn, he will respawn, wait for it...IN THE SAME DEPOT. I have been killed many times by a player who did this.

The whole point of the No Fire Zone was to prevent a player from standing at the spawn point and camping players who are not even in the game world yet.

The unintended consequence is that players who SHOULD be able to continue playing, trying to kill EI outside and suppress EI in order to be a team player and help the re-cappers, can no longer shoot.

If we *must* have No Fire Zones (and there *are* better ways to achieve the one true goal) then they should be limited to actual enemy spawnables that are the main spawns, the links to the enemy towns, and then those No Fire Zones should be in effect ONLY when the enemy also has the FB in question, if there is an FB.

The Depots that are "Spawnables", as in links to enemy towns are the ones that get 99% of enemy spawn-ins. The others where enemy choose to despawn/respawn while close are not often used that way, and therefore are not an issue for a player camping the spawn spot. He will get bored to death.

So the new game mechanic has bad consequences that it should not have.

Frankly, I'd rather deal with an occasional spawn-camper than this, which will affect me a lot more often.

_____________

romzburg

[badger77]

The good thing about free fire is you can clean the enemy out of your depos and thus clear the ei radar.

With a no fire zone for everyone any number of ei can camp inside a depo and wait there till everyone gets bored waiting for them to come out then go cap. Respawn back into the depo and rinse and repeat. Many towns would have ei radar showing and you couldnt tell which ones are under attack or which ones just have ei sitting in a depo from the map. You would not be able to tell which towns are under attack by ei or which ones just have ei sitting in a depo other than to check the depo but even then is it just the ei in the depo setting off inf radar or are there other ei coming to town. It would be just plan annoying to have ei in your town and you can do nothing about it. I understand the reason for the no fire zone but I dont think this current trade-off is good. Not being able to clear the town of enemy infantry to me is a bad bad thing.

A fix would be only the owning side of the depo can free fire. A enemy sitting in a depo owned by another country is forced into a no fire zone.

Having a hard time explaining my concern. Hope someone can make heads or tails out of my rambling.

No once you cap the depot they cannot fire and you can go in and clear them out or they can't fire.

No fire only applies when you are the enemy in a friendly depot

EDIT - I see thats already been made clear by a few !!!

Edited April 6, 2010 by badger77

[badger77]

We also want other players to be aware of this issue, because most are not, and of the ones who are aware of the No Fire Zone, I have seen exactly two who know how it works. Most are completely misinformed.

_____________

Well I thought the no fire zone was simple. If the enemy controls or caps it then you cannot fire regardless of if it's alinking spawnable or not. All depots are equal as they say. There must be more than 2 who know how it works

How does it work then.

[romzburg]

Well I thought the no fire zone was simple. If the enemy controls or caps it then you cannot fire regardless of if it's alinking spawnable or not. All depots are equal as they say. There must be more than 2 who know how it works

How does it work then.

I said "I've seen exactly 2". Now I've seen 3.

Until yesterday and today's discussions, most thought it only applied to "The Spawnable", which is the depot that links to an enemy town, not a friendly town.

Which wouldn't be so bad, I could live with that, even though it still isn't a "good" solution. It's barely acceptable. There are "good" solutions.

There is much value in remaining on the third floor and shooting enemy EI and ATGs that are swarming the AB in plain sight. I have had numerous double-digit missions doing this, preventing EI form getting too far from their actual spawnable, so my squadmates and teammates could recap.

the whole point of the No Fire Zone is to prevent spawn-point killing infantry as they are spawning into the world.

This new system goes WAAAAAY beyond that goal into a net negative overall effect.

______________

Ya know, at first Romsburg, you rubbed me the wrong way and I wasn't a fan. But over the past 12 months, you have really grown on me. You're precise, well spoken and although you are sometimes a little harsh, you are most often correct and in proper context with your responses.

indeed he's one of the few voices of common sense on these forums

I can't say [any]thing else [than] that the ban was justified considering that you have an 'impressive' TOS history....

The only thing worse than being talked about is *not* being talked about.

[twobad44]

romzburg got it right , no fire was to prevent spawn campers and most usually are in spawnables, to apply it to all depots is going overboard. I still have a hard time accepting, forcing somebody who legally spawned into a depot to run out of cover b/c a buliding was caped or degun him, but i guess they needed something for the spawn campers. nice if it was just applied to spawnables only.

[DOC]

If the enemy cap the depot you're currently inside, thus changing it to their depot not yours, even if they cannot spawn there yet the rules go into effect because it is based on side not spawnability. This is much more robust code than trying to determine the changing state of the depots current spawnability, and is far less confusing to track the state of for those nearby locally where the depot is.

While we fully understand romzburgs point .. it presents us with 3 possible depot states rather than 2, where a binary solution represents the easiest and most robust of all variations ... and additionally you have two opposing functional states with only 1 easily obtained immediate visual representation to local fighters (flag state) and these two states can swap based on actions happening as much as 15-20 km away that local fighters would not be immediately aware of while in a fight around that depot. An enemy depot might be a no-fire or an ok-fire zone based on events in a part of the world you are not immediately coonected with or aware of. The extra confusion might be ok with some and might not be prefered according to others, it does make the learning curve more complex.

So while we are aware of the point those against are making, it may transpire that like many things, there is often a trade off.

[romzburg]

If the enemy cap the depot you're currently inside, thus changing it to their depot not yours, even if they cannot spawn there yet the rules go into effect because it is based on side not spawnability. This is much more robust code than trying to determine the changing state of the depots current spawnability, and is far less confusing to track the state of for those nearby locally where the depot is.

While we fully understand romzburgs point .. it presents us with 3 possible depot states rather than 2, where a binary solution represents the easiest and most robust of all variations ... and additionally you have two opposing functional states with only 1 easily obtained immediate visual representation to local fighters (flag state) and these two states can swap based on actions happening as much as 15-20 km away that local fighters would not be immediately aware of while in a fight around that depot. An enemy depot might be a no-fire or an ok-fire zone based on events in a part of the world you are not immediately coonected with or aware of. The extra confusion might be ok with some and might not be prefered according to others, it does make the learning curve more complex.

So while we are aware of the point those against are making, it may transpire that like many things, there is often a trade off.

I will trade you my my Yugo for your motorcycle.

My Yugo allows you to stop at a traffic light and not have to expend any effort to keep from falling over.

Sure, it's a tradeoff, but, hey. How about it?

Currently whether you can spawn in a spawnable or not spawn there depends on what is going on elsewhere on the map.

That's fine. We know how the game works.

Currently whether resupply happens faster or slower depends on what happens hundreds of kilometers away.

That's fine, we know how the game works.

This sounds like so much attempts at late justification of something bad that was unforeseen rather than explanation of something good that was designed.

Just get rid of it until you can figure out how to do the ONE THING you are trying to do, protect the spawner.

It is not worth the tradeoff.

Why not make the spawner invulnerable for 20 seconds OR until he moves. Let him rotate in place and see if there is a camper to shoot in the face while the camper ineffectually attempts to kill him?

That is the ONLY thing we are trying to do here.

Protect the spawner.

The tradeoff is too much.

___________

Ya know, at first Romsburg, you rubbed me the wrong way and I wasn't a fan. But over the past 12 months, you have really grown on me. You're precise, well spoken and although you are sometimes a little harsh, you are most often correct and in proper context with your responses.

indeed he's one of the few voices of common sense on these forums

I can't say [any]thing else [than] that the ban was justified considering that you have an 'impressive' TOS history....

The only thing worse than being talked about is *not* being talked about.

[sasquach]

I'm dead set against the no fire zone. It's unrealistic, detracts from the game, it's a solution that creates more of a problem than the problem it's intended to solve, and looks just plain stupid. It's not like the spawn camper is invincible, and it's even a bit of fun trying to outfox him. Clearing a depot adds excitement to the game, especially when a person gets pissed off at being killed spawning (the rage makes him try all the more... don't ask me how I know). Also, lag works against the camper so they can be countered. I think it's more of a whine issue (perhaps even on the part of the Rats) than a problem. But what is the cost of this solution?

You're in a spawn legitimately. The spawn gets capped, often without the players inside aware of it. So now they have a gun and a supply of ammo, but the gun won't fire. This is silly and will no doubt irritate many (consider that the beta testers might be far more understanding and forgiving than many of those in open play).

Worse yet, if the spawn gets capped while a town is still contested, the players inside no longer can defend. (That's the way it works the last I tried, if this is being changed then I'm not aware of it.)

If the enemy can spawn there they can kill the camper. If the enemy cannot spawn there (like when they don't have a flag yet) then they can't be camped. When a player snipes the enemy from a capped CP the enemy can't spawn into, if the player can see the enemy, the enemy can see the player. (It even adds a lot of excitement to the game... rage and passion enhances excitement). Finally regarding players hiding in a CP of a defeated town to recap it later. Players can hide anywhere including in the nearby brush... the attackers seldom look everywhere and the EWS can be from a long way away. Most often the town has no AO so the CPs cannot be recapped. And if the other side has issued an AO, there should be defenders still there. If not, bad on them.

It seems to me this whole thing is a result of some players whining. But the fix is just going to cause other players to whine, especially new players who don't understand what the purpose is. My suggestion to CRS... try not to put things into the game that upset the players if you want their subscriptions. And to this I'll add the situations where the list of weapons show weapons are available, but selecting them shows a message that there are no supplies (because a forward base got capped or a brigade was moved). Stuff like this looks phony and further complicates a very complex strategic game.

I've had my say... Sasquach

[adoniram]

We need no fire zone in the control tower where paras are supposed to spawn from now... it has a stair that enables enemies to move up to 2nd floor to spawncamp.

[dekard]

on the plate to do, was waiting to see if we could get it working first.