Bombs testing next week (last week of april)

[DOC]

Been a bit of a testing time (pun intended!) getting these to behave in the way we want given the underlying or core damage/ballistics system hasn't changed (it's really very good it just isn't perfect ) but I think I had an epiphany today. Early internal testing results tonight were higly promising. The few issues we had that were frustrating me seem to have been solved.

I'll need some dedicated "I will be a bomb target" guys to help me with testing online in the coming week. If you've got the time, I will appreicate it very much.

[romzburg]

What specific types of targets do you need?

I'm assuming mostly tanks?

_________________

Ya know, at first Romsburg, you rubbed me the wrong way and I wasn't a fan. But over the past 12 months, you have really grown on me. You're precise, well spoken and although you are sometimes a little harsh, you are most often correct and in proper context with your responses.

indeed he's one of the few voices of common sense on these forums

I can't say [any]thing else [than] that the ban was justified considering that you have an 'impressive' TOS history....

The only thing worse than being talked about is *not* being talked about.

[spleef]

I will be home on tuesday or wednesday. Madiera Beach is pretty but the tourists are creepy.

As my schedule lately has been less than full, I would be happy to assist again next week.

[Tuominen]

I will attend if I am avail during those tests.

err.. can we have unlimited bombs so that no landing is required in between

[Hinfoos]

I will attend if I am avail during those tests.

err.. can we have unlimited bombs so that no landing is required in between

DOC will bomb.. u will be the panzy

[zabrisk]

I'll be glad to help. This issue has been driving me NUTS

[eko13wf]

Been a bit of a testing time (pun intended!) getting these to behave in the way we want given the underlying or core damage/ballistics system hasn't changed (it's really very good it just isn't perfect ) but I think I had an epiphany today. Early internal testing results tonight were higly promising. The few issues we had that were frustrating me seem to have been solved.

I'll need some dedicated "I will be a bomb target" guys to help me with testing online in the coming week. If you've got the time, I will appreicate it very much.

I'll be there.

[Slpr]

i'm assuming at the scheduled test times?

Tuesday, April 20th :12PM - 4pm [Open Play]

Wednesday, April 21st : 12PM - 4pm FOCUS TESTING COMBINED ARMS

Thursday, April 22nd : 12pm - 4pm [Open Play]

Friday, April 23rd : 12pm - 4pm [Open Play]

so long slpr

[DOC]

We had a very successful testing session with bombs today (Tuesday) in the open beta with v1.31.0.37 build, we'd particularly like and suggest that all UBER DIVE BOMB FREAKAZOIDS come in during this week and bring a friend who can spawn a target tank for you ... see how you go.

We particularly need feedback from dive bombing because debug bombing (the most efficient method we have to employ) doesn't always replicate terminal velocity achieved from dive bombing, since it has to employ a static drop (zero velocity at release) methodology.

So while we think we have the bombs where they need to be, they need to be tested out TONS AND TONS AND TONS by actual dive bomb orientated players in bombers.

Here's some guidelines for you: (these are the bombs that are most effective vs tanks)

1. Stuka carries 1 x 250Kg (550lb.) bomb

2. Bf110F-B carries 2 x 250kg (550lb.) bombs

3. He-111 carries 8 x 250kg (550lb.) bombs

4. Bell Mle.14a carries 1 x 200kg (440lb.) bomb

5. Hurricane IIc carries 2 x MC500lb bombs

6. Blenheim IV carries 2 x GP500lb bombs

-Expectations-

(don't be expecting what we were not able to do on this part of the game at this point in time)

Near misses are still, due to lack of deformable terrain and 60 foot craters, not as effective versus the heavier tanks as we'd like. Tracking is likely if you're close but it is not guarrenteed. Direct hits however should be many magnitudes more effective than they have been in the past against the heavier tanks.

Tanks will not brew up or blow up on every direct hit. They should do so on a large number of direct hits however, but without a whole new code approach (not possible at this time) we can't force it to occur everytime 100%. It does happen a lot of times though, certainly compared to any period in the games past.

Kill to hit ratio should be like a whole new game for dive bombers against the heavier tanks that were almost impossible to kill previously. Lighter tanks have always been vulnerable, and naturally still are.

Please come in and try your hand at this so that ... if this is a part of your game play, we can achieve the objectives we set for ourselves during this development cycle.

[frantish]

More:

http://wiki.battlegroundeurope.com/index.php/Aircraft_weapons#Aircraft_Bombs

Douglas DB-7 117kg 257lb

Douglas Havoc Mk.I 113kg 250lb

Edited April 27, 2010 by frantish

[zabrisk]

Near misses are still' date=' due to lack of deformable terrain and 60 foot craters, not as effective versus the heavier tanks as we'd like.[/quote']

What about the pressure/concussion/whatever effects?

Why is forming a crater under the tank so important? Is this just a matter of the tank getting stuck, or is some real damage done to it in the process? Isn't terrain deformation result just another result rather than a cause?

[DOC]

when a 50 ton tank gets a 60 foot crater blown under it from a 500 pound bomb, if it doesn't end up on it's side or roof (thus disabling it) then the crew and/or even the tanks ancilliary components are often knocked out of action

we cannot model this result at the present time, was my point ... remember that crater might be 12 to 20 feet deep

[Tuominen]

any tests planned for euro prime time.. I have to wake up for work every day 5 am and I am home 18 or 19 pm.

I have been avail for testing for couple evenings... to bad there is no test server open those times

better luck today

oh... GMT+2 here.

my observations and perceptions in PAST.

90% of my Tiger kills are made by bombs... rest 10% are kill steals, strafing into open hatch and popping their tops off.

Vs tigers and stuggs I often noticed that direct kills didnt always result crit to target.. thast why adopted dive from rear arc to get most chance to hit vunurable flat surfaces. ALSO... there was very strong feeling that dive speed was affecting the crit level and penetration of bomb. Since with lower speeds I rarely got any sort visual damage on target even with direct hits.. oh I know how to recoginize direct hit.. there are couple indicators. DId bomb physically has to go trhough targets top armor in order to make damage? well.. that was feeling at least for me.

Even most of my medium tank kills are with bombs, I resisted urge to strafe 4gs for long, in other than killing commander purpose, but at some point I faltered and began popping em up... but even at that point, bomb was my main weapon, as it takes special conditions to be able to strafe pzs... not single EA, no FB nearby or AAA at all.

Indicators of direct hit.. impact marker on ground... and the second, very weird one was the one that when you get direct hit on target, there is no concussion bomb damage or splash damage delivered, to you or any other targets in area... target seems to suck it all up.

I first realized this once when I was bombing AB full of targets.. I mean full of targets, I picked one stugg and bombed it... didnt get kill, but I couldn ot miss that badly and I got no concussion blast ..of any sort from that either.

I dont think my allied pilots have same amount of experience with Bell in CAS role than I do.. so I really would like to get to try those new bombs in online test.

Edited April 29, 2010 by Tuominen

[zabrisk]

My question wasn't so much why a crater would damage a tank, its was more along the lines of "if a bomb creates a 60 ft crater, wouldn't that damage the tank directly in the first place".

[Tigger6]

Indicators of direct hit.. impact marker on ground... and the second, very weird one was the one that when you get direct hit on target, there is no concussion bomb damage or splash damage delivered, to you or any other targets in area... target seems to suck it all up.

I always thought that a indicator of a direct hit is NO scorch mark on the ground, since the explosion is not on the ground.

Note that this doesn't work on roads (at least in 1.31), since there are no scorch marks possible on roads.

[DOC]

Those of you who already have a high kill:drop ratio with bombs versus tanks because you use high speed dives (which do help you to get successful results) will probably not think a lot of change has occured. For you it may not have, it's difficult to make guesses because conjecture like this is not based on data, comparitive results, it's just anecdotal. I don't really want to make any predictions for your perceptions, that's a lose/lose proposition for us.

If you already have a high kill:drop ratio it will be difficult to improve that, logical yes ? You can only kill 1 tank per bomb.

I think the biggest differance will be that the percentage of tanks killed displaying visual feedback of their being killed (blown up, flamed or heavily smoking/tracked) will be much higher, ie: you'll maybe not kill more (if you are already good at it) but you'll have more frequent visual confirmation of it when you do kill them. Those who have a low kill:drop ratio, but are hitting tanks with direct hits, will see some improvement as long as they can hit the tank with a direct hit. Speed of the plane when the bomb releases is less important than it was before. The tolerance for variation is wider while still remaining successful as an event consequence outcome.

Scorch marks, where the bomb landed, all that stuff, I generally don't care because I know that until bombs are STO's there are going to be issues there and I can't make STO's happen as a game development overnight, and neither can you . If the tank stops moving and despawns, or burns or blows up, then I know where I landed the bomb. With a higher percentage of direct hits = kills in v1.31 (and in all probability more likely to include visual confirmation such as fire/damage/blown up) I can use the death of the tank as my "did I hit it?" indicator.... if I missed it I don't really care where the mark is on the ground. All I care about as a CAS pilot is hitting the tank because now that will pretty much kill it dead.

No kill ? I almost certainly missed it then and I don't argue with the machine.

PS: yeah we know it ain't perfect. <- it never will be either, because that's impossible, we can make things better (we generally do) but perfection ... we won't live that long, and neither will you

[Tuominen]

Speed of the plane when the bomb releases is less important than it was before. The tolerance for variation is wider while still remaining successful as an event consequence outcome.

This part I found intresting , this should increase my effiency alot

Also, Last evening saw beta open.. tried to join, but spent next hour updating and when finally was updated, the beta was closed...FFUUUUUUUU

I have had very limited time this week as I had to start two new sites (bridge repairs)... so I had to wake up early and days kinda got streched as I have 1,5h drive

Edited May 1, 2010 by Tuominen

[Bacon55]

Doc wouldn't a 500lb bomb blowing up a few feet from a tank blow entire plates off a tank, or cave it in?

I'm actually having a lot of difficulty finding any information on this.

[DOC]

... and buildings should throw bricks and debris all over the place, catching fire if made of wood ... craters up to 60 feet across and 12 feet deep should appear, vehicles should be thrown around, tons of earth should be displaced, trees snapped like matchsticks ..... need I go on ?

There is no way for the current game engine to destroy a tank from a near miss, although you can track it on the side of the impact if it's really close. It just is not possible to damage it further without an enitirely new system. What happens in real life is irrelevent in respect to this limitation. A direct hit is completely different, as the ballistics aspect of the game engine is very good at handling direct hit impacts. All the work done this development cycle employed the existing direct hit aspect of ballistic impacts to make the improvements we gained possible.

BTW, with last weeks resting we finished this work, and it's now wrapped and ready, so that's one more part of beta done with.

Thanks everyone who was able to help out!

[jwilly]

Eventually, though.

[zabrisk]

... and buildings should throw bricks and debris all over the place, catching fire if made of wood ... craters up to 60 feet across and 12 feet deep should appear, vehicles should be thrown around, tons of earth should be displaced, trees snapped like matchsticks ..... need I go on ?

There is no way for the current game engine to destroy a tank from a near miss, although you can track it on the side of the impact if it's really close. It just is not possible to damage it further without an enitirely new system. What happens in real life is irrelevent in respect to this limitation. A direct hit is completely different, as the ballistics aspect of the game engine is very good at handling direct hit impacts. All the work done this development cycle employed the existing direct hit aspect of ballistic impacts to make the improvements we gained possible.

So it wouldn't be realistic for concussion damage to crew or ancillary components? That's all I'm wondering.

[DOC]

Concussive force does cause damage, and wound crews and can even kill them. The degree of such consequences is not fixed or guarrenteed but varies from one instance to another, but it is a factor and it does occur. Has done since the game was first coded.

Tanks don't damage anything like as easily from concussion as say, a truck would. Basically you can't rely on concussion to damage vehicles a great deal unless they are light in construction. Since you can't see the tool boxes or engine grilles that might have been affected on a tank for example, you'll think that there was no concussive force.

I have recorded crews inside tanks incapacitated or killed by concussion, but death would not be a common outcome. Maybe if the AFV was an SdKfz.232 or a Panhard or something light like that. However, they are also more likely to lose wheels and other components of a "visible" nature.

[jaguar12]

are these tests mainly aimed at dive bombers or has the lethality of medium bombers also been increased?

im hopin it has by the way.

[hastati]

So their will be even less reason for me to level bomb at 1km with my He111 and even more reason to do it like a db7? =/

[Hinfoos]

So their will be even less reason for me to level bomb at 1km with my He111 and even more reason to do it like a db7? =/

no, there is no reason to it like a db7.