Constructive Opinion

[wooker2]

Personally I dislike 1.31 for only two main reasons but heres my idea of it

Graphics: Great

Spawn Delay: Remove it before its to late, go back to 1 min max and judge it on a town to town basis or sector basis. The 5 min idea will murder side loyalty

Capping System: Hate it, in theory I like the no radio and the shooting ability gained by it and it favors more teamwork but it meanwhile kills or hurts:

--- The 1 man can change the outcome idea

--- Soft caps become even more of a burden leading to more WWI like combat

--- Harder to defend against the overpop side or mainly the one with more tanks

--- Leaves TZ3 as a black hole since neither side will be able to muster enough forces to attack and cap and if a cap is done on a spawn, that ao will be going all night

All other features that i can think of are cool

other than the breathing after running, it is damn annoying

[munchkin]

You seriously think softcapping is a good thing?

[DOC]

While we appreciate all your suggestions we are as close to release as we can get and we would like to have been at this point 2 months ago. So we are in feature freeze and we are not writing any new code or complicated features for this release, we are simply fixing remaining bugs so we can release ASAP.

Thus, we are utilizing available code and features to acheive any changes to things like side balancing etc., thus the high increase of the previous artificial lid on the spawn timer which was set at 2 mins prior, but which in extreme cases would have been a lot higher if not for that artifical cap. We actually want to see how high players will push it by choice if we don't hide that choice from you like we did when we capped it artifically. This will be excellent data to use in designing future changes to limit side imbalances, changes we CANNOT do NOW but we will do over future developments. Changes that will NOT use a spawn delay but be quite different in nature and implementation to such a simple paradigm.

Look at it this way: you have a house full of rooms and a cat. You keep all the doors closed. You never know if they are opened how many the cat will visit, when and why. We are simply opening the available doors to see what it does. If we don't do this we cannot gather any useful data.

Another perspective. For 5 days now this change has been in effect on the live server. Due entirely to the relatively even side populations for that entire time, spawn delay has never even reached 1 minute. Not once in 5 full days of hard fighting by both sides. Populations at peak have been good and balanced.

Our goal is to have a means to help negate exceedingly unplayable population imbalances while at the same time, looking for hard data we can gather about how far it goes based on player choices. If we achieve good side balance by any future means we can, or players elect to do this themselves, spawn delays are, like the past 5 days with the new limit already in place remember ... virtually non existant.

[fearny]

Personally I dislike 1.31 for only two main reasons but heres my idea of it

Graphics: Great

Spawn Delay: Remove it before its to late, go back to 1 min max and judge it on a town to town basis or sector basis. The 5 min idea will murder side loyalty

Capping System: Hate it, in theory I like the no radio and the shooting ability gained by it and it favors more teamwork but it meanwhile kills or hurts:

--- The 1 man can change the outcome idea - sounds very anti-teamwork?

--- Soft caps become even more of a burden leading to more WWI like combat - I despise softcaps, with a passion. I couldn't disagree more.

--- Harder to defend against the overpop side or mainly the one with more tanks - Not sure i agree, allows a singular defender more time to clear

--- Leaves TZ3 as a black hole since neither side will be able to muster enough forces to attack and cap and if a cap is done on a spawn, that ao will be going all night - Only time will tell if this is true, i can't see the issue myself

All other features that i can think of are cool

other than the breathing after running, it is damn annoying

Just my opinions

[Tuominen]

I have feeling that we wont be seeing 5 min DS timers, I also think 1.31 will ease the situation to balance sides a bit.

I would think that that max 5 min timer is like nuke of the balancing acts... it will be rarely seen, but its there for the times its needed.

Currently DS timers have reverse effect.. how many times I have seen in comms.. hey, 60sec delay, enemy is logging, lets use that, ATTAAACK/CAAAP!! It has positive effect on morale of over populating side... so we can only guess that 1 min is too little, or there should be some other way around.

[stdyhand]

I have feeling that we wont be seeing 5 min DS timers, I also think 1.31 will ease the situation to balance sides a bit.

I would think that that max 5 min timer is like nuke of the balancing acts... it will be rarely seen, but its there for the times its needed.

Currently DS timers have reverse effect.. how many times I have seen in comms.. hey, 60sec delay, enemy is logging, lets use that, ATTAAACK/CAAAP!! It has positive effect on morale of over populating side... so we can only guess that 1 min is too little, or there should be some other way around.

While the SD may be a morale booster for some, it can also hurt one side badly. When I see a SD I also can't help but think if one or two EI are capping our spawnable I might not be able to get back in to try and stop them and from past experience certainly can't rely on others to try and stop them.

I like the no radio idea, but I do think the timers for capping are entirely too long. In my opinion they do need to be longer so it allows time to spawn in the event of a SD, but right now the timers to cap are so slow I expect the map will never move East or West. Even if there are 5 infantry in a flag building capping there is enough time to clear it several times over. That is bad for the underpop side trying to attack. Just my two cents

[wooker2]

Just my opinions

Im nt anti-teamwork, I just like the ability to do things alone as well, 13 min to cap alone is scary. Why not

4 min with 1

3 min with 2

2 min with 3

1 min with 4

Then add a minute to those when it comes to bunkers, then we dont have unthinkably long cap timers, spawnableas arnt supply drained just guarding cps and teamwork is still rewarded but single players arnt unsubbing for having to wait so long

Well actually I very much dislike softcaps as well but in blitzkrieg like flag moves soft cap are un-preventable

Lastly I see your point fearny with caps but it also has an adverse effect on defenders when the spawnable is down, it will be nearly inpossible to uncamp an already 95% camped town.'

As for sd timers, thx DOC for you anology, meow, I can see its experimental value. Why not make HCs unable to get that high, like leave it at 1 min. That should

A. increase HC populations almost immediately

B. then can be retweaked accordingly once the experiment is done.

Also is the 5 min max still on the 2 min max mode, so we dont get 5 sec spawn delays with a 2 man overpop

[romzburg]

While we appreciate all your suggestions we are as close to release as we can get and we would like to have been at this point 2 months ago. So we are in feature freeze and we are not writing any new code or complicated features for this release, we are simply fixing remaining bugs so we can release ASAP.

Thus, we are utilizing available code and features to acheive any changes to things like side balancing etc., thus the high increase of the previous artificial lid on the spawn timer which was set at 2 mins prior, but which in extreme cases would have been a lot higher if not for that artifical cap. We actually want to see how high players will push it by choice if we don't hide that choice from you like we did when we capped it artifically. This will be excellent data to use in designing future changes to limit side imbalances, changes we CANNOT do NOW but we will do over future developments. Changes that will NOT use a spawn delay but be quite different in nature and implementation to such a simple paradigm.

Look at it this way: you have a house full of rooms and a cat. You keep all the doors closed. You never know if they are opened how many the cat will visit, when and why. We are simply opening the available doors to see what it does. If we don't do this we cannot gather any useful data.

Another perspective. For 5 days now this change has been in effect on the live server. Due entirely to the relatively even side populations for that entire time, spawn delay has never even reached 1 minute. Not once in 5 full days of hard fighting by both sides. Populations at peak have been good and balanced.

Our goal is to have a means to help negate exceedingly unplayable population imbalances while at the same time, looking for hard data we can gather about how far it goes based on player choices. If we achieve good side balance by any future means we can, or players elect to do this themselves, spawn delays are, like the past 5 days with the new limit already in place remember ... virtually non existant.

Artificial cap shmartificial cap.

The whole thing is artificial in every way.

You want to know the answer to your question?

Don't have any spawn delay at all, and just keep track of the numbers.

THEN you have useful data about what will happen if you don't interfere.

THEN you will have useful data about how you can implement a NON-spawn delay solution.

As long as you are interfering with what you are supposedly measuring, you aren't measuring accurately, ESPECIALLY if your intent is as you stated, which is to *remove* that interference in the future when you try to "solve" the problem you are supposedly defining!

Heisenberg was concerned about the unavoidable effect observation had, and here you are *intentionally* affecting the thing you are trying to observe!

They don't even have a name for that yet!

I guess we'll call it "The DOC Effect".

____________________

motormouth:

Much as Romzy's posting style can give me headaches (and the fact that he's "NEVAR WRONG!!"), that post pretty much nails it on the head.

sgtchief:

romz you['re] my damn hero

sydney:

Ya know, at first Romsburg, you rubbed me the wrong way and I wasn't a fan. But over the past 12 months, you have really grown on me. You're precise, well spoken and although you are sometimes a little harsh, you are most often correct and in proper context with your responses.

irelandeb:

indeed he's one of the few voices of common sense on these forums

pete, linc & julie:

I can't say [any]thing else [than] that the ban was justified considering that you have an 'impressive' TOS history....

owilde:

The only thing worse than being talked about is *not* being talked about.

[drkpatch]

While we appreciate all your suggestions we are as close to release as we can get and we would like to have been at this point 2 months ago. So we are in feature freeze and we are not writing any new code or complicated features for this release, we are simply fixing remaining bugs so we can release ASAP.

Thus, we are utilizing available code and features to acheive any changes to things like side balancing etc., thus the high increase of the previous artificial lid on the spawn timer which was set at 2 mins prior, but which in extreme cases would have been a lot higher if not for that artifical cap. We actually want to see how high players will push it by choice if we don't hide that choice from you like we did when we capped it artifically. This will be excellent data to use in designing future changes to limit side imbalances, changes we CANNOT do NOW but we will do over future developments. Changes that will NOT use a spawn delay but be quite different in nature and implementation to such a simple paradigm.

Look at it this way: you have a house full of rooms and a cat. You keep all the doors closed. You never know if they are opened how many the cat will visit, when and why. We are simply opening the available doors to see what it does. If we don't do this we cannot gather any useful data.

Another perspective. For 5 days now this change has been in effect on the live server. Due entirely to the relatively even side populations for that entire time, spawn delay has never even reached 1 minute. Not once in 5 full days of hard fighting by both sides. Populations at peak have been good and balanced.

Our goal is to have a means to help negate exceedingly unplayable population imbalances while at the same time, looking for hard data we can gather about how far it goes based on player choices. If we achieve good side balance by any future means we can, or players elect to do this themselves, spawn delays are, like the past 5 days with the new limit already in place remember ... virtually non existant.

Hey DOC, have you guys ever considered making the spawn delay global or mission-wide, not individual? Also, make it so that both sides have it all the time, but it changes based on overpop.

There are a number of advantages I can think of:

1. everybody is waiting for the same timer....less individual and more group feel

2. All the people waiting for the spawn timer would spawn in together, which would encourage teamwork and sense of "in it together"

3. You would rarely have to wait for the full amount, and often almost none of it.

4. The time waiting together could be used to plan what to do when you spawn. If ever you were to put in some kind of visual aids for planning on the map this would be a great time to show it, as it could make it fast and easy to quickly explain the plan to the other people in the queue.

5. NO MORE LINE OF ANTS (or at least a lot less likely)

6. WAY more realistic looking battles, if used to full effect. I would recommend having different timers for different unit types if possible. For instance, make the spawn timer for aircraft longer than infantry. One great idea for air and sea would be to make the spawn in be every 10 or 15 minutes, so that a player could know when they could spawn before even launching the game. This way, when you log in at 5:13 (15 min timer) you can be certain that you'll spawn in in two mins and almost guaranteed to spawn into a group that you can go fly with instead of taking off alone.

I played the beta last night, and the game is looking great, but I hate to say that I still found myself lamenting the line of ants. The only battle happening at the time didn't have an MS inside 1km. Every single spawn-in was to a long run and a line of ants, followed by my eventual death from far away sources unknown. That is just not really fun gameplay, and I couldn't help wondering what % of first time players get exactly that experience.

Lately I have been playing Red Orchestra a bit and this exact concept is used. That game is more shoebox/arcadish compared to WWIIOL, so there isn't a ton of planning to do, but just spawning in together makes the gameplay way more fun, because the enemy is also spawning in this way and when you encounter them they are in a group, so you get group-on-group combat. In that game, the wait is actually rather innocuous, and when you spawn in you are rewarded for the wait with teammates at your side. When you spawn in that way, odds are good that some of the guys spawning with you know where the action is, so you can follow them. In WWIIOL, you are rewarded for the wait with a lone spawn-in, a run to where you hope the action is and encounters with lone enemies.

I honestly feel alone when I spawn into this game much of the time. Invariably when I spawn in in this game my teammates are all spread around and I can't easily tell where I should go.

I know, some people will say "get in a squad!", but should the game be designed to only be really fun if you're in a squad? I think this is such a cool game, but whenever I try to play it I get that experience and get bored and discouraged and log off.

[kc23]

My biggest complaint is cap timer for solo cap. Absurd.

Lag is a problem and likely related to the huge increase in fire bugs.

Pretty good other than that. Excellent in fact.

[wooker2]

Let me redo my early idea

1 Soldier = 4.5 min cap

2 Soldiers = 3 min cap

3 Soldiers = 2 min cap

4 Soldiers = 1 min cap

AB Radios is +1 min to all of above

[david06]

Even if you think the times are a bit long, the 1.31 capture system is far better than "hump the radio" that we have now. With the new system one man can actually stand and fight for the CP that he's capturing instead of sitting helpless by the radio. A team of 3-4 guys attacking will actually be able to take a damaged capture building; presently you can have several covering the building but a single defender can peek in, kill the capturer and force the attackers to start all over.

I hate spawn delay too but I really can't think of a better solution at the moment.

[ZeroAce]

Give the cap timer a chance. Once people start to realize that capping alone is fruitless, we may see players start to form up and focus on single objectives in ad hoc groups.

It happens to some extent already, but it could happen much more regularly once it's required to seriously take an objective.

The OIC of the attack will have a role in coordinating which depot everyone should focus on.

In fact, we may even want to take it a step further; Remove ninja capping and moling from the equation entirely by warning the town when a CP has started to become capped.

That way every CP that changes hands did so with a fight.

To balance out this for the attackers, starting the cap and reaching a certain small percentage could shut off the defensive spawning.

[wooker2]

So any more constructive opinions

[webco]

So any more constructive opinions

Yeah,

LETS GET READYYYY TO RUMMMBLE!

[wooker2]

Anymore thoughts on this topic of cap timers

[DOC]

Remember, we cannot implememnt a new system until well after v1.31 release, as it requires an entirely new dev. cycle, so asking for it now is just going to frustrate you. We have to use what is in place now with zero new work to it. That's just reality.

[usaf77]

I really dug the smoke and infantry breathing audio. I said to myself yesterday, "this is pretty good".

One thing I noticed however is its harder to locate audio sources with surround sound. Left, right, in front, rear...ect. Maybe I just need to tweak audio settings. I was crawling around on my belly with all 128 sounds going and it was pretty awsome.

As a videomaker my ownself Im a big audio guy. I find the audio in this game to be very good. I mean the vehicles, guns, airplanes,..ect You can tell whose they are by sound alone. That is good audio efx.

Edited June 4, 2010 by usaf77

[cykel]

1 man ninja capping of a whole town thats ridicolous

Now ppl will be force to *gasp* co-op..work toghether..as teamwork!

No more ninjacappers/snipe camping kiddie bull****

[wooker2]

I am a ninja but my idea about half way down is more or less a middle ground between CRs present 1.31 and the old cap system. It inspires teamwork without killing single soldiers in low pops and such.

1 Soldier = 4.5 min cap

2 Soldiers = 3 min cap

3 Soldiers = 2 min cap

4 Soldiers = 1 min cap

AB Radios is +1 min to all of above

[JoeJean]

So DOC left the front door opened and the cat is lost? Did I get this right?

[vzaitsev]

I'm glad it takes so long for just 1 person to cap, it requires teamwork. It is so annoying when you are in a large city and you only have 1 EI running around capping depots. Now the defenders have a chance to actually catch the SOB.

Honestly, if you are in a big city, and 1 or 2 moles keep something constantly capped for 10 minutes, that allows others to ninja-cap the city bunkers. A big city should NOT fall except from a larger attack by the enemy. I have seen instances where big cities are taken by very small forces. Sure that is partly the fault of the defending side, but to be realistic, those large cities should be difficult to capture.

[wooker2]

Thats why i say make it 1 min cap 4.5 min, not 8 min or 13 min since it does make it a great deal harder to mole a large city but at the same time softcaps and a individual achievement is still plausible

[vzaitsev]

Thats why i say make it 1 min cap 4.5 min' date=' not 8 min or 13 min since it does make it a great deal harder to mole a large city but at the same time softcaps and a individual achievement is still plausible[/quote']

Softcaps shouldn't happen, and moling a large city should be very difficult... This game isn't about individuality, you try to lone wolf... you die. Simple as that. That is the way it should be.

People lone wolf enough as it is, and battles are lost because of it.

[smythes]

So DOC left the front door opened and the cat is lost? Did I get this right?

You mean the cat in the box was alive?