Heavy tanks vs. Heavy bombs

[Duffbrew]

Doc said something about heavy bombs always killing heavy tanks with a direct hit now?

just wondering about the stats so far this map with this 'change':

UNIT OPPONENT KILLS ON DEATHS BY K/D

Tiger (DE) Hurri IIc (UK) 1 13 0.08

Tiger (DE) Blen IV (UK) 0 1 0.00

Tiger (DE) Havoc I (UK) 0 3 0.00

Tiger (DE) Bell 14a (FR) 0 5 0.00

Tiger (DE) Blen IV (FR) 1 0 1.00

Tiger (DE) DB7 (FR) 0 2 0.00

2 24 0.08

that's 24 tigers dead to bombs in 2 days, or about 12 per day - considering how scarce tigers are 3x armor unit and 1x inf unit it's a lot.

Matty this camp:

UNIT OPPONENT KILLS ON DEATHS BY K/D

Matilda (UK) Bf110FB (DE) 7 6 1.17

Matilda (UK) Stuka (DE) 54 24 2.25

Matilda (UK) Heinkel (DE) 13 4 3.25

74 34 2.18

that's 34 dead matties in about a month or a little over 1 per day - considering the huge # of matties available and sorties made already 11x armor unit and 4x inf unit in T0 (ROFL) it seems pretty meek.

and for kicks and giggles the c7 and c3:

COMPARATIVE RESULTS

UNIT OPPONENT KILLS ON DEATHS BY K/D

Churchill 7 (UK) Bf110FB (DE) 0 1 0.00

0 1 0.00

UNIT OPPONENT KILLS ON DEATHS BY K/D

Churchill 3 (UK) Bf110FB (DE) 2 5 0.40

Churchill 3 (UK) Stuka (DE) 3 0 3.00

5 5 1.00

1 dead c7 in 2 days and 5 dead c3's in 8 or 9 days since they've been out. despite being in numbers 2 and 4 times higher than tigers.

the other heavy tank in game being the char is dying somewhat better, 58 so far - but it looks like the tiger will pass that in a few days despite being far far less common in game.

i can hit the training server if anyone's bored.

[DOC]

You probably haven't factored in that the planes that routinely go after Matildas are Stukas and Bf110FB's.

One (the Bf110FB) has been in the game for a very short time time this campaign so far (it's a tier 2 plane afterall) and the other (Stuka) has had to fight it's way through an Allied air supremacy in tier 0 and tier 1 that made it rather difficult for German pilots earlier this campaign, which would signifigantly affect it's ability to make lots of kills.

I wouldn't be jumping to any conclusion just yet. The real test is how effective they are versus a particular tank this campaign versus how effective they are versus that same tank lsat campaign, since we did not make all tanks equal we just improved the bomb performancxe against them, the tanks still have the same attributes they had before.

You really need to lose the "all will be the same" expectation, we didn't do anything that will ensure that.

PS: Tigers are also easier targets to get a direct hit against because they are wider.

[dm79]

You probably haven't factored in that the planes that routinely go after Matildas are Stukas and Bf110FB's.

One (the Bf110FB) has been in the game for a very short time time this campaign so far (it's a tier 2 plane afterall) and the other (Stuka) has had to fight it's way through an Allied air supremacy in tier 0 and tier 1 that made it rather difficult for German pilots earlier this campaign, which would signifigantly affect it's ability to make lots of kills.

I wouldn't be jumping to any conclusion just yet. The real test is how effective they are versus a particular tank this campaign versus how effective they are versus that same tank lsat campaign, since we did not make all tanks equal we just improved the bomb performancxe against them, the tanks still have the same attributes they had before.

You really need to lose the "all will be the same" expectation, we didn't do anything that will ensure that.

PS: Tigers are also easier targets to get a direct hit against because they are wider.

haha yeah ok..

[DeusWolf]

And Tigers are...Yellow:mad:

We need new paint scheme for it since 1.31.

[majhavoc]

I think it just the Tiger's paint scheme that makes it look "wider".

[auss]

Tigers should have the dark green camo!! They are yellow and big, too visible from distance or from a plane!!

[doch]

Doc said something about heavy bombs always killing heavy tanks with a direct hit now?

just wondering about the stats so far this map with this 'change':

UNIT OPPONENT KILLS ON DEATHS BY K/D

Tiger (DE) Hurri IIc (UK) 1 13 0.08

Tiger (DE) Blen IV (UK) 0 1 0.00

Tiger (DE) Havoc I (UK) 0 3 0.00

Tiger (DE) Bell 14a (FR) 0 5 0.00

Tiger (DE) Blen IV (FR) 1 0 1.00

Tiger (DE) DB7 (FR) 0 2 0.00

2 24 0.08

that's 24 tigers dead to bombs in 2 days, or about 12 per day - considering how scarce tigers are 3x armor unit and 1x inf unit it's a lot.

Matty this camp:

UNIT OPPONENT KILLS ON DEATHS BY K/D

Matilda (UK) Bf110FB (DE) 7 6 1.17

Matilda (UK) Stuka (DE) 54 24 2.25

Matilda (UK) Heinkel (DE) 13 4 3.25

74 34 2.18

that's 34 dead matties in about a month or a little over 1 per day - considering the huge # of matties available and sorties made already 11x armor unit and 4x inf unit in T0 (ROFL) it seems pretty meek.

and for kicks and giggles the c7 and c3:

COMPARATIVE RESULTS

UNIT OPPONENT KILLS ON DEATHS BY K/D

Churchill 7 (UK) Bf110FB (DE) 0 1 0.00

0 1 0.00

UNIT OPPONENT KILLS ON DEATHS BY K/D

Churchill 3 (UK) Bf110FB (DE) 2 5 0.40

Churchill 3 (UK) Stuka (DE) 3 0 3.00

5 5 1.00

1 dead c7 in 2 days and 5 dead c3's in 8 or 9 days since they've been out. despite being in numbers 2 and 4 times higher than tigers.

the other heavy tank in game being the char is dying somewhat better, 58 so far - but it looks like the tiger will pass that in a few days despite being far far less common in game.

i can hit the training server if anyone's bored.

Tigers all over the map,the brit stuff in 1/4 of the bdes- you should start by compairing to sorties, so yiou get kills by bombs pr. sortie.

You are comparing apples and oranges.

[Duffbrew]

Tigers all over the map,the brit stuff in 1/4 of the bdes- you should start by compairing to sorties, so yiou get kills by bombs pr. sortie.

You are comparing apples and oranges.

well 2,851 matty sorties - 34 dead to bombs

1,308 c3 & c7 sorties - 6 dead to bombs

547 tiger sorties - we up to 30 dead now to bombs

[doch]

well 2,851 matty sorties - 34 dead to bombs

1,308 c3 & c7 sorties - 6 dead to bombs

547 tiger sorties - we up to 30 dead now to bombs

So, your point is that the tiger is easier to kill?

In the sence thats its larger Id agree, in any other sence, id say go test it.

Im pretty sure the reason is that the allied calls in air, when they see a tiger, while the axis doesent when they see a turtle, becausae there is no reason to bomb it, when you have all the means to kill it on the ground. C3s are no more a high prority target than a 4g is. Isent it a bit weird, if you idea is solid, that the allied have only 21 kills on 4g- I mean it has a huge number of sorties.

Its a matter of priority, where the allied often calls in air to track a tiger or even kill it- some players have specialized in this.

There are simply more bombs dropping in tigers than any other tank in game, and that of course adds to more kills, since a direct hill will now kill any tank.

[blaxy]

Hmm, sherman 76 seems a bit more resistant to bombs than some other tanks.

Stu can be killed with 50kg bomb if its hit directly in the turret, but if you dive onto a sherm76 with 250kg bomb and hit it top side it wont go. Tried that 3 times, all 3 times direct hit with 250kg and no kills on it. It should at leas kill its crew inside.

Tried it same with stus, 3 times, 3 kills. Whats the catch?

Some tests that were made ->

///////////////////////////////////

1942 detonation tests - Udetfield Upper Silesia, north of Beuthen ( Polish spelling “Bytom“)

Targets: ten Russian T-34, one American M-4 Sherman, three British Mark IV Churchill tanks

Bombs used: SC-250

Effect on T-34: remains intact at distance of 3 meters (9.7 feet) animals inside tank killed, diesel fuel set aflame.

Effect on Sherman tank: remains intact at distance 3 meters, animals illinside ked.

Effect on Churchill tanks: riveted armor fails at 5 meters (15.5 feet) entire tank torn apart.

////////////////////////////////

Edited July 11, 2010 by blaxy

[ARRADIN]

Sorry, i call a bit of BS.

Ofcourse Tigers will have higher deaths..

Tiger's are always, ALWAYS P1 for bombers... they are the biggest threat to ground, they are easy to spot , etc.

hardly controlled scientific statistics there, and i fail to see the point , really.

[popeye0]

well 2,851 matty sorties - 34 dead to bombs

1,308 c3 & c7 sorties - 6 dead to bombs

547 tiger sorties - we up to 30 dead now to bombs

First off this is a BUG forum not a whine forum, that one is that way--->.

Since the tiger has not changed then it is not bugged.

[montyuno]

lol.... nrfpt....

wot a joke.... oh wait I pay for this...

Regards Monty

[Duffbrew]

First off this is a BUG forum not a whine forum, that one is that way--->.

Since the tiger has not changed then it is not bugged.

doc instamoves any threads that question anything over to here. i asked about the 20% reduction in sappers the first day of this camp and he moved it here lol

the point is 1.31 was supposed to make direct hits from heavy bombs on heavy tanks a kill, but teh allied ones dont seem to be dying anywhere near the same pace.

up to 33 tiggers now, no change in allied ones since yesterday. almost 6 full divisions worth of supply in 3 days.

[montyuno]

........ Wait .... for .... it.......

......

.........

.....

Surprise!!!!!!!!!!

....

......

..

Regards Monty

[Bacon55]

Axis air superiority is non existent, and the tiger is a big target.

I see nothing wrong here.

[popeye0]

doc instamoves any threads that question anything over to here. i asked about the 20% reduction in sappers the first day of this camp and he moved it here lol

the point is 1.31 was supposed to make direct hits from heavy bombs on heavy tanks a kill, but teh allied ones dont seem to be dying anywhere near the same pace.

up to 33 tiggers now, no change in allied ones since yesterday. almost 6 full divisions worth of supply in 3 days.

Man use your brain for a change, instead of a resting place for your beer.

Allies are overpoped this map (so far), therfore we have an advantage in the air and on the ground. Our pilots are getting directions to any tiger that can be spotted and are bombing same.

Second, allied bombs are now working better so the allied pilots who had to contend with crappy bombs before and learned how to get them on target, now have better bombs to hit that same target with.

Think about that and take off the tinfoil hat. There is nothing changed about the tigger, just that allied pilots have better bombs now.

And if you want to do comparision, look at what the Ju does in tier 0 to tier 2 before we get the Hurry IIc with our nice new bombs.

This game is not black verses white. Each side has its advantages and its disadvantages. The trick is in learning how to use them.

[dm79]

Man use your brain for a change, instead of a resting place for your beer.

Allies are overpoped this map (so far), therfore we have an advantage in the air and on the ground. Our pilots are getting directions to any tiger that can be spotted and are bombing same.

Second, allied bombs are now working better so the allied pilots who had to contend with crappy bombs before and learned how to get them on target, now have better bombs to hit that same target with.

Think about that and take off the tinfoil hat. There is nothing changed about the tigger, just that allied pilots have better bombs now.

And if you want to do comparision, look at what the Ju does in tier 0 to tier 2 before we get the Hurry IIc with our nice new bombs.

This game is not black verses white. Each side has its advantages and its disadvantages. The trick is in learning how to use them.

the axis are getting there asses kicked at the moment its quite normal for the side losing to focus on what the other side gets and what they don't.

In this case allied bombs seem to be working and axis don't, hence people start to get a bit miffed and ask why does the other side seem to have an advantage and i don't, it feels unfair, its also right to question some thing that seems out of whack, it was done with the Churchill 7 and was found to have a problem, if none of us whined (asked) about problems then the game would have errors, because believe it or not the rats make mistakes because there human, even if they them self's don't liker to admit it.

Now im sure a lot of what people have explained already are just causes as to why there is such a large division in the kills on allied tanks vs axis tanks yet the one i realy cant understand is that the stuka did so piss poor vs tanks in t0, this thing is as close to a lazer guided bomb as you can get in the game, the hurri, bell blen, havok and db7 all do bombing runs, teh stuka come in above on a dive to drop it bomb smack on the target, hoe then can this platform be doing so badly?

[caydel]

Sorry, i call a bit of BS.

Ofcourse Tigers will have higher deaths..

Tiger's are always, ALWAYS P1 for bombers... they are the biggest threat to ground, they are easy to spot , etc.

hardly controlled scientific statistics there, and i fail to see the point , really.

To build on this a little, Allied heavy tanks are more likely to die to other means such as ATGs, or other ground units. Since the Church III / Church VII / Matty all have relatively weak guns (compared to the Tiger), they are generally operating much closer in towards enemy units that can damage them.

Due to it's excellent gun, the Tiger is more likely to be sitting on a hill relatively distant from the action, where the risk of Allied ATGs & tanks harming it is quite reduced. This necessitates the need for us to get the nearest bomber to take it out.

They are different tools, used in different ways, in different circumstances. A direct statistical comparison is just about meaningless.

[dm79]

To build on this a little, Allied heavy tanks are more likely to die to other means such as ATGs, or other ground units. Since the Church III / Church VII / Matty all have relatively weak guns (compared to the Tiger), they are generally operating much closer in towards enemy units that can damage them.

Due to it's excellent gun, the Tiger is more likely to be sitting on a hill relatively distant from the action, where the risk of Allied ATGs & tanks harming it is quite reduced. This necessitates the need for us to get the nearest bomber to take it out.

They are different tools, used in different ways, in different circumstances. A direct statistical comparison is just about meaningless.

The Tiger at range don't wash sorry, i seem them going close all the time, in fact most at the moment are used in defence right in town.

[lutorm]

This is such a poorly controlled experiment so as to be useless, the number of bombs dropped, the skill of the pilots doing so, and the characteristics of the aircraft dropping the bombs are all uncontrolled variables.

At a minimum, if you're going to make a case, go to the training server and do a bunch of bomb runs, and count deaths vs direct hits. Then see what the numbers say.

[DOC]

I move threads that claim something is wrong in another forum because they won't get any attention from the 1 or 2 guys who have to read for reports/bugs AND do their other 2 or 3 jobs as well.

This way they get BUG report attention. However ......

...... if after that there is no bug validated then it won't be fixed, as no BUG was found. If you want to then make it a complaint that's not a bug. I put this in the bug forum so it would be looked at, nothing more. We won't be arguing the point however, short of a possible explanation for why it appears to you there is something wrong yet no bug was there to be found.

That's how it works. It got moved, looked at ... since there is no bug found to be associated with the report/claim, a short explanation as to the other possibility followed. That pretty much ends the report process for now.

If you have some very logical, objective analysis/evidence that does not include a million uncontrolled variables, we'll look at that because that will perhaps tell us something that wasn't obvious without it.

We don't have a team of monkeys to chase down everything that isn't very compelling ... so we have to be ruthlessly efficient with our time and attention. Sucks for sure and trust me, it sucks for US not just you. We wish we did have a dedicated team to objectively analyse everything to a degree that you might need a microscope and 2 weeks per claim to pursue. The best we can do is hope that some of you have that sort of time if you want to pursue something we have already cleared for the time being because we are moving onto other reports, of which there could be hundreds.

However, we cannot entertain usimng this forum for reporting becoming a discussion/complaint forum because if we did, other work would cease to happen and we have knocked out hundreds of reports and fixed hundreds of issues using this forum in precisely the manner you have been witnessing for several months now.

Considering how little manpower we have, what we have achieved with this method is actually rather good. Sorry if it rubs some people the wrong way but nessesity and the desire to do more with less demand it.