Feedback - grenades #4302

[yokilla]

Still happening in cp top floor and ai mg towers' date=' version 1.32.13, although it does not alwasy happen in top cp floors, but happens enough to make the nade useless in clearing cps etc...[/quote']

How is it useless? They still kill me if I get too close to them. I've cleared the room with ceiling nades many times. People seem to have less chance of noting them if I don't drop them on the floor.

[geckopow]

How is it useless? They still kill me if I get too close to them. I've cleared the room with ceiling nades many times. People seem to have less chance of noting them if I don't drop them on the floor.

I stood under a few of those nades, not a scratch, it seems random as to wether the nade is deemed useless or works as intended, but so far for me, nades that have clipped, favour useless, which really limits the french grenadier clearing cps upstairs, since 99% of the time the nade clips into the roof, and detonates within the roof, instead of expanding the blast.

Edited October 10, 2010 by geckopow
quick typo change

[geckopow]

Just did some other quick tests, it appears that if u fire the nade into the ceiling on the right side, just as u run up the stairs, the nades are useless, if clipped, but on the left side, if u are right underneath it, it can still kill u, happened consistantly for me in this small test.

[raven4]

pretty sure i read somewhere, where CRS thought they got the nades unstuck, but just saw mine stick to the roof of a cp i was trying to clear the upstairs too.

[delems]

Yep, they still stick to CP roofs and AI tower roofs as I recall.

[GOPHUR]

Ready for test 1.33.0.12

[DOC]

While I am not specifically addressing the actual bug here (that they stick to ceilings and walls and such) which is a collider/physics issue ... it is incorrect to assume that they "do no damage as a consequence of this bug" because in fact they still function as they would in any other situation.

The issue you are labelling "does no damage" is actually "does not have a high probability of death or signifigant damage" which applies to all grenades in all cases, and is based on the fact that outside of movies/TV and so on ... in real life our WWII era grenades effectively relied much more on stun and "mortal fear" than they did on death and dismemberment.

We research stuff quite a lot to get at the facts and try to avoid the common impressions/opinions/myths when we do the simulation stuff, which centers itself on the weapons modeling. Weird situations like a grenade in a foxhole rolling between the feet of one soldier and not injuring him at all while the guy 4 feet away takes shrapnel; tend to sound like "1 in a million" but they weren't at all. In researching the real grenade consequences during WWII it is obvious that they don't do a lot of collateral damage at all, and rely on shock/stunned senses/fear to allow the follow up "charge into the room as soon as the grenade goes off" to be it's most effective.

This presents us with the problem of 99% of players wanting them to be like TV/movies portray them but that if simulated realistically, they wouldn't be like that at all. Rightly or wrongly we erred on the side of more realistic than more "cool and exciting". Real WWII grenades when detonated are a bit of a let down actually, if you expect TV/movies type effects. Not a very big bang and little flash and drama. Sure, if a chunk of it's casing shrapnel goes through your gut it's going to be ugly, but there was not a lot of that and a fairly good chance it wouldn't hit you at all.

So while the clipping ceilings and walls collider bug obviously requres our attention and needs to be fixed ... it doesn't include a dependant state where their damage effects are turned off as a result of that clipping. That just confuses the issue. Maybe some of their effects are masked by the collider they are clipped into (the wall/ceiling etc.) further reducing their chance of damaging you, but they are still, as grenades (weapons) functioning, their effects are not suddenly turned off.

What you are witnessing is how ... in reality ... you have more chance of escaping physical damage from grenades than you do of taking physical damage. It's much easier to explain when you can view how they work in a debug client but I guess that information doesn't help you a lot.

Really I'm just clarifying what otherwise might have you believing something that isn't as it appears to be. Nothing more.

[romzburg]

While I am not specifically addressing the actual bug here (that they stick to ceilings and walls and such) which is a collider/physics issue ... it is incorrect to assume that they "do no damage as a consequence of this bug" because in fact they still function as they would in any other situation.

The issue you are labelling "does no damage" is actually "does not have a high probability of death or signifigant damage" which applies to all grenades in all cases, and is based on the fact that outside of movies/TV and so on ... in real life our WWII era grenades effectively relied much more on stun and "mortal fear" than they did on death and dismemberment.

We research stuff quite a lot to get at the facts and try to avoid the common impressions/opinions/myths when we do the simulation stuff, which centers itself on the weapons modeling. Weird situations like a grenade in a foxhole rolling between the feet of one soldier and not injuring him at all while the guy 4 feet away takes shrapnel; tend to sound like "1 in a million" but they weren't at all. In researching the real grenade consequences during WWII it is obvious that they don't do a lot of collateral damage at all, and rely on shock/stunned senses/fear to allow the follow up "charge into the room as soon as the grenade goes off" to be it's most effective.

This presents us with the problem of 99% of players wanting them to be like TV/movies portray them but that if simulated realistically, they wouldn't be like that at all. Rightly or wrongly we erred on the side of more realistic than more "cool and exciting". Real WWII grenades when detonated are a bit of a let down actually, if you expect TV/movies type effects. Not a very big bang and little flash and drama. Sure, if a chunk of it's casing shrapnel goes through your gut it's going to be ugly, but there was not a lot of that and a fairly good chance it wouldn't hit you at all.

So while the clipping ceilings and walls collider bug obviously requres our attention and needs to be fixed ... it doesn't include a dependant state where their damage effects are turned off as a result of that clipping. That just confuses the issue. Maybe some of their effects are masked by the collider they are clipped into (the wall/ceiling etc.) further reducing their chance of damaging you, but they are still, as grenades (weapons) functioning, their effects are not suddenly turned off.

What you are witnessing is how ... in reality ... you have more chance of escaping physical damage from grenades than you do of taking physical damage. It's much easier to explain when you can view how they work in a debug client but I guess that information doesn't help you a lot.

Really I'm just clarifying what otherwise might have you believing something that isn't as it appears to be. Nothing more.

I had always assumed that the facrt that the thing clipped was the reason they do even less than the already almost non-existant damage.

And as gameplayers, nobody cares that the grenade is still performing all of its mathematical calculations.

The point is *purely* practical, because, as gameplayers, we are putting these things into practical use, to try to kill or stun another player.

And when the grenade clips, no matter how much my CPU grinds away, the grenade does even less than before.

Since there is no fear in WWIIOL, the discussion of the real-life effect n that arena isn't helpful to us as gameplayers.

Instead of being *process* oriented, you should be *results* oriented.

If a grenade goes off less than 6 feet from you, you should be stunned an unable to move or fire your weapon for 5 seconds. Et cetera.

Or whatever, fill in all those variables however you want.

But doing what you do as far as modeling A which has to affect B which has to affect C...the result is not always so good.

There is a *very* good reason to use a pure and simple hitpoint system in some cases. When an 88 puts a shell *through* both sides of a Panhard, just because it didn't hit anything modeled in your model doesn't mean the Panhard should not be 100% destroyed and everyone dead.

Grenades are a priome example of something that need unrealistic coding.

Avatars have no fear, and don't get concussions.

____________________

motormouth:

Much as Romzy's posting style can give me headaches (and the fact that he's "NEVAR WRONG!!"), that post pretty much nails it on the head.

sgtchief:

romz you['re] my damn hero

sydney:

Ya know, at first Romsburg, you rubbed me the wrong way and I wasn't a fan. But over the past 12 months, you have really grown on me. You're precise, well spoken and although you are sometimes a little harsh, you are most often correct and in proper context with your responses.

irelandeb:

indeed he's one of the few voices of common sense on these forums

jw:

If you're going to argue with Romz, do your homework before you post. He gets it, and you can't teach common sense, you have to be born with it.

pete, linc & julie:

I can't say [any]thing else [than] that the ban was justified considering that you have an 'impressive' TOS history....

owilde:

The only thing worse than being talked about is *not* being talked about.