Kill spots on Gunners

[nervous]

In multiple instances I have shot both "persons" in an AA gun, or directly naded (them by laying behind next to the gun and dropping a nade) only to have the gun turn and kill me after the explosion or the two parties had been shot.

I aim all shots at center mass. A mid-torso shot from 1 foot? There is a survival chance against a KAR98 of maybe 1%. The impact pressures of this round alone, at essentially point blank, would kill 4 out of 5 immediately.

Don't even talk to me about standing on the grenade.

To be subsequently killed by the AA gun is simply unacceptable. To then watch said AA gunner continue to shoot down planes is bordering on insane.

This issue has occurred on multiple styles of AA, and it seems systemic to the damage model of all guns.

If this is NOT a bug, then I misunderstand "bug".

[munchkin]

Well, we can turn this around...

It's absolutely insane that a direct hit is needed on an infantry with the 40mm HE shells from a bofors to kill, a hit just 1 foot beside does no damage at all...

Fix one, fix both...

And, remember that if a nade goes underneath on a bofors then there's a big thick steel plate that protects the personel quite well.

Also, and this has been mentioned many times. 1 shot isn't and shouldn't kill a gunner because in real life there were at least 4 people manning one bofors cannon, hence it's modelled so you need to hit them at least 2 times each to kill.

Hence, it's not a bug.

[nervous]

Well, we can turn this around...

It's absolutely insane that a direct hit is needed on an infantry with the 40mm HE shells from a bofors to kill, a hit just 1 foot beside does no damage at all...

Sounds good to me. You think I'm gonna disagree? No matter to the above.

And, remember that if a nade goes underneath on a bofors then there's a big thick steel plate that protects the personel quite well.

If you were somehow lucky enough to have the nade directly under one of the support beams, maybe. If the thing is a foot to the right of either seat, no.

Also, and this has been mentioned many times. 1 shot isn't and shouldn't kill a gunner because in real life there were at least 4 people manning one bofors cannon, hence it's modelled so you need to hit them at least 2 times each to kill.

Does that apply to all guns?

Why isn't there some better info on this in the game?

I can only play 2 spots as any gunner, so it makes no inherent sense that i should assume I must fire 4 times to kill on any gun. The fleshy looking target is 2, HENCE, I, the new player, would logically believe 2 should end it.

Why is that made difficult by some strange assumption I should know there are really 4 people?

Sounds like a pile of bull.

[romzburg]

Sounds good to me. You think I'm gonna disagree? No matter to the above.

If you were somehow lucky enough to have the nade directly under one of the support beams, maybe. If the thing is a foot to the right of either seat, no.

Does that apply to all guns?

Why isn't there some better info on this in the game?

I can only play 2 spots as any gunner, so it makes no inherent sense that i should assume I must fire 4 times to kill on any gun. The fleshy looking target is 2, HENCE, I, the new player, would logically believe 2 should end it.

Why is that made difficult by some strange assumption I should know there are really 4 people?

Sounds like a pile of bull.

CRS didn't model all the guys. Do you see more guys there? No? Do you know anything about WWII gun crews? No? Now you do.

In WWII there is not one recorded instance of a guy walking up to two enemy manning an ATG or AA gun and trying to kill them by standing there and calmly firing one shot into the back of each of them.

No one said you were supposed to know. You asked, you got your answer, and now you want to tell us we're feeding you bull? You may not like the answer, but that's your problem.

Now you know not to walk calmly up to an enemy gun crew like a n00b.

____________________

motormouth:

Much as Romzy's posting style can give me headaches (and the fact that he's "NEVAR WRONG!!"), that post pretty much nails it on the head.

sgtchief:

romz you['re] my damn hero

sydney:

Ya know, at first Romsburg, you rubbed me the wrong way and I wasn't a fan. But over the past 12 months, you have really grown on me. You're precise, well spoken and although you are sometimes a little harsh, you are most often correct and in proper context with your responses.

irelandeb:

indeed he's one of the few voices of common sense on these forums

pete, linc & julie:

I can't say [any]thing else [than] that the ban was justified considering that you have an 'impressive' TOS history....

owilde:

The only thing worse than being talked about is *not* being talked about.

[nervous]

CRS didn't model all the guys.

Fine, why isn't this knowledge accessible in game naturally? Why would I need to log out to know this? In no instance as a gunner do I play more than 2 guys, do I?

In WWII there is not one recorded instance of a guy walking up to two enemy manning an ATG or AA gun and trying to kill them by standing there and calmly firing one shot into the back of each of them.

No, you could shoot them at range, one shot per person, like any other human.

Just because you didn't read every trench clearing encounter, doesn't mean that gun crews weren't overrun and so took close range fire.

No one said you were supposed to know.

[...]

Now you know not to walk calmly up to an enemy gun crew like a n00b.

AND THIS IS THE PROBLEM.

IF THIS IS TRUE, THAT GUNNERS ARE 4 PEOPLE, There should be some sort of information on this in the game, so that it's natural to fire 2x's to the head of, what to now I apparently stupidly thought was, 1 inf unit in a chair. Most inf units would die with 1 close range shot to the cranium, yes?

Simple stuff really. Why is that so hard for you? You imply me as noob, yet your logic is not even elementary.

If there are 4 spots on gunners, why cant other units work like this? Why cant a tank driver get into commander spot while parked? Or into a gunner if the gunner goes down? Why cant my co-pilot in the JU-52 fly the plane?

Consistency matters. This appears a load of bull.

[lutorm]

This is a well-known problem that can't be fixed with the current game engine. Noone's saying the current state of affairs is good, it's just the best that can be done until the game engine gets updated to be able to handle stuff like detachable infantry models.

[Tigger6]

Its a bug which will go away when they overhaul the gun models. For now, just shoot crew member twice in the torso, that kills them. Don't bother with grenades unless you don't have a direct line of sight.

[tayvl]

I agree with Nervous' annoyance at undocumented aspects of the game that will get you killed...

[conradhays]

This is a well-known problem that can't be fixed with the current game engine. Noone's saying the current state of affairs is good' date=' it's just the best that can be done until the game engine gets updated to be able to handle stuff like detachable infantry models.[/quote']

I agree with nervous here. Isn't the "best that can be done" obvious? Two infantry are modelled and two infantry should be represented in the damage model. Historical accuracy must be cast aside in the situation. Otherwise we end up justifying all sorts of crazy damage models that serve only to confuse and frustrate newer players.

[munchkin]

This have worked for years and most people know about this. Newcomers doesn't but learn it quickly. There is no need to change this yet.

Another aspect into this is that if it were possible to one-shot kill each of the crewmembers the guns would be completely defenceless. They weren't completely defenceless, most of them had pistols, rifles or machine guns as well.

When a crewmember can pick up his pistol or rifle and defend himself I can agree that this should change, but until that can be done this is good as it is. It makes it at least possible to do SOME self defence.

For players that want easy mode this is not the right game...

[twisty]

Another aspect into this is that if it were possible to one-shot kill each of the crewmembers the guns would be completely defenceless.

Its called teamwork, have a inf smg with you. just as you would as a tank for sapper defence.

For players that want easy mode this is not the right game...

nobody is asking for easy mode, just a visual world that resembles the coded world.

don't animate the crew positions so they always = the correct hitbox position. ?

i.e change the 'visual' world to match the 'hitbox' world untill there is a better solution/engine upgrade..

[munchkin]

Its called teamwork' date=' have a inf smg with you. just as you would as a tank for sapper defence.[/quote']

And you know as well as I do that this is never gonna happen. People don't want to guard CP's becuase it's boring, even if you most likely will score kills, so how do you think anyone is gonna be willing to guard a gun in the middle of nowhere where there's a big chance there will never be any enemies up close? Get real.

nobody is asking for easy mode, just a visual world that resembles the coded world.

don't animate the crew positions so they always = the correct hitbox position. ?

i.e change the 'visual' world to match the 'hitbox' world untill there is a better solution/engine upgrade..

And you haven't read everything so you know that it's not possible to do at this time?

As I said before, until it's possible to change this in a satisfactory way then this is the best solution.

[nervous]

And you know as well as I do that this is never gonna happen. People don't want to guard CP's becuase it's boring, even if you most likely will score kills, so how do you think anyone is gonna be willing to guard a gun in the middle of nowhere where there's a big chance there will never be any enemies up close? Get real.

Same argument can be made about FB defense, yet it seems to happen? Why?

Because eventually players figure out that having the FB is important, even if it can be boring.

The only time this would put a gun crew at major disadvantage is if it were to be towed some great distance from a front, (for instance to an enemy AF).

All other conditions of combat could reasonably be expected to have some amount of infantry nearby, of both sides. So survival of guns becomes a legitimate reason for mixed team to work together, as they should be anyway, to defend combat and support lines. No forward gun line was left without regular infantry defenders.

Further, if the "solution" is simply 4 shots, instead of 2, the gun isn't particularly much safer now than with only 2 hit boxes.

If there are 2 people towing, it should be as simple as placing a new figure on each of the corners of the bofor, or the 88, or the rear supports of the 16(?)pnder. The two on the gun could represent the actual trigger men, and the two on the flanks would represent the carry crew.

I can hardly believe that adding new inf models with damage zones on the guns is some code breaking addition. If it is, it's time for CRS to invest in a new code base.

just a visual world that resembles the coded world.

Exactly. Anyone who has seen me playing this game in a JU-52 for hours, cannot express in any honest fashion that I am simply out for "easy mode". This pathetic attempt at dismissal, is evidence of irrational emotional attachment to a broken toy.

[tayvl]

This have worked for years and most people know about this. Newcomers doesn't but learn it quickly....

And how do you know that "most people know about this"?

And while we're at it, what kind of game documentation is "most people know about this"? Why isn't it documented (and the same question could be asked about a dozen other undocumented "features" in the game)? This is one thing that's annoyed me about the game: too many things that need to be known but aren't documented other than in forum posts...

[noons]

2 shots to the gunners torso and most atgs/aaa would despawn as they are now ineffective.

The best way you ever know that you have killed something is to watch it despawn.

[munchkin]

I honestly still don't see the problem since there is none.

Same goes for anything else, even single infantry. If you don't kill with the first shot you shoot again.

There is no bug here and there is no gameplay issue. For those who doesn't know how this works the first time it's encountered the lesson will be learned. That's no different from any other encounter in the game. You can't spawn a plane and expect to kill everything and survive, you learn how to by experience.

Why worry so much about it really? What's the big deal? I still don't get it, unless it's all about stats and if so I couldn't care less...

[nervous]

I honestly still don't see the problem

Then kindly stop posting here.

since there is none.

Yes. Shooting what looks to be infantry in the head, with corresponding metallic hole in the face, is not enough to kill anyone.

You willing to volunteer to be the target on a field test?

Same goes for anything else, even single infantry. If you don't kill with the first shot you shoot again.

Except, infantry that are dead drop their weapons, and their heads no longer remain elevated. One can fairly immediately tell, especially at 10 feet, that one has made a kill on inf.

There is no bug here and there is no gameplay issue.

Durp.

It took me 3 weeks of playing this game, sneaking up on gun emplacements about 2 times a day, and getting killed by some of them, to get so frustrated as to post a bug thread. It is only AFTER I posted this thread did anyone bother to mention this "feature"(?).

This, and a few other glaring issues, has brought me to believing my money is not well spent here. If that is not an issue for game-play, buddy, its an issue for the long-term viability of any company.

Simply, it is not easily understood.

It is not logical.

It is extremely frustrating to a new player, and I doubt I will find it less so as a "seasoned" player.

For those who doesn't know how this works the first time it's encountered the lesson will be learned. That's no different from any other encounter in the game. You can't spawn a plane and expect to kill everything and survive, you learn how to by experience.

Yes, sorry, I forgot this wasn't a war simulator, and the common tactics and understandings of warfare don't apply here...

Infantry can openly and without fear assault a tank, etc...

No, the lesson will not be learned, the player will assume that they personally made a mistake, or that a random glitch has occurred. There is no reason to believe that 2 guys are actually 4. That applies in no other situation in this game, nor in any other game I which I can think.

NOBODY, in 3 weeks of gaming, bothered to mention this "feature". Nowhere in the training as inf, or in the use of an AA gun, did this "feature" get mentioned.

Why worry so much about it really? What's the big deal? I still don't get it, unless it's all about stats and if so I couldn't care less...

Because, unlike some people, I actually attempt to live as long as possible, with my simple rifleman, because I believe that one man behind enemy lines is a better tool than 10 in front. I spend the time to flank you. I spend the time waiting for that tank to roll by. I spend the time waiting for you, and your careless friends, to run by on foot, so that I can kill your support.

After 40 min of crawling through open fields and hiding behind trees to get to your gun, it is NOT ok to be greeted by a game flaw that should be, by any reasonable grasp of time span, fixed by 10 YEARS after initiation.

This issue, along with a few other glaring issues, has brought me to end my opportunity to subscribe here. It is of concern to me as a player, that such a seemingly important "feature" is entirely ignored.

You, Mr.Shortman, on the other hand, are obviously in love with the game. That is fine. You should offer to help CRS code, they apparently need more dedicated staff.

Noons, the problem is not one of my impatience. The first few posts in this thread should make that obvious. I am quite happy waiting to be sure that something is dead.

The problem is what would kill any other infantry looking unit in the game, namely 1 shot to the noggin, doesn't, and there is absolutely no way for one to know this without digging through forums. So what happens is that I shoot said infantry units in the head, metallic holes to prove it, and the damn thing turns and kills me.

Sorry, despite my numerous posts, I really do prefer to spend my game time in game, not on forums looking for reasons I have encountered unclear "features".

[noons]

Also nervous sometimes you may get the "kill" but it isn't an instant kill and this can happen with any of the opposing units.

This game and the folks who follow it can be a little frustrating but imo there is nothing else like it for an overall war game.

[delems]

Agree the ATG kill has a lot to be desired. It does need to be more clear when the crew is dead or harmed in some way. It should be much more obvious and align somehow with how the real world works.

I also get confused when I shoot an ATG crew point blank a few time and he turns and kills me, actually it ticks me off. There is also no visual indicator of the ATG crews state, there probably should be. And, I've tossed nades at ATG's and nothing happens, also not very realistic I don't think.

(I was always understanding that in real life, ATG's were usually taken out with HE, not to destroy the gun, but to kill the crew; is this accurately modeled?)

[munchkin]

I can agree that there should be some kind of visual indication that the crew has been killed, but as far as I have understood it is just not possible to do so at this time.

Besides that I still see no acute issue here. Until a change that is satisfactory for all parties can be made then this is the way it has to stay. It's still not a bug so it's definately in the wrong forum.

[nervous]

Until a change that is satisfactory for all parties can be made then this is the way it has to stay.

What parties? Who is pleased that the gun model looks nothing like it's behavior? Who is rallying for this to remain unchanged? Unfixed?

This is a game that has been in constant development for 10 years. Pardon me, but if a solution ain't been found in 10 years of looking through the code, it ain't gonna be found. (Oh, but don't worry, I hear there are new features in the works that can bring a whole new set of bugs and unrecorded "features"). Yet, I admit, if this has been understood and left in game since 2001, you must be right, it's not a bug, CRS has chosen this route.

Still, Munchkin, you, as I see it, are one of two people, someone who cannot admit they are wrong, or you are a CRS plant.

You are suggesting that new player ignorance, and a broken in-game reality, should continue because there are "parties" who need to remain "satisfied" by such lack of attentiveness to a glaring in-game reality break by CRS?

Don't worry, you will have the last word on this forum, as my account runs out shortly. You can go back to your comfort with the broken modeling, and your apparent asinine belief that this broken model is a good thing for the game.

I will be spending my money and time supporting people who recognize that an in-game reality, though a fiction yet, needs to have regular consistency to be enjoyable.

[munchkin]

Did I say I was pleased? If so then point to where I said that.

What I said is that it's OK as it is until a change can be made and that's a completely different thing.

However, we do disagree on one thing. You want the easy kill, I want the extension to show all crew, and the possibility to rotate them if one gets killed... which kind of is the same as it is now so there's no real big difference except visually.

Thing is, you won't see the rotation anyway.

Oh well.. being such a whiner as I am it's kinda fun to be accused of being a CRS plant!