Lag killing is worse than ever

[ZeroAce]

Again, this is has nothing to do with lag in general.

Lag isn't the problem.

The way their netcode works is.

Other games with cilent side hit detection do not have this problem of double killing each other because they let the server sort out who legitimately killed who first.

[delems]

This have been my issue ever since 1.30. I can no longer effectively play infantry. It is so frustrating, I'm so close to unsubbing, don't want to, but I'm not going to play a game where I'm not competitive in battling another guy in the cp. I play infantry like 99%+ of the time. So this is critical to me.

In 1.30, I didn't have this issue, so it's not LAG per say, or we would have had it in that version too. Something changed and it is way worse now. I have been saying since day 1. People shoot you and you never see them in the cp, but on death cam there they are in the middle of the room shooting you. I have 82ms ping and a very fast computer, so it's nothing to do with that.

Like I have said so many times, in 1.30 at least I always saw the guy and 60% of the time we might end up both dying. With the other 40 split between him either getting the kill or me. I could live with that, I felt competitive.

It is either that terrible slow motion moving/turning code or something to do with tracking multiple people in the cp that has messed it all up, that's my guess.

There is no doubt I will quit this game eventually because infantry play has gotten so bad. It's not a question of if, but rather when, and that seems quiet sad as the game is pretty unique and cool.

[ZeroAce]

That seems to be a new problem with 1.31, where infantry are either invisible or where they really are isn't in sync with what you see (I've had EI deployed in windows look like they are prone or something, but they can kill me I can't see their head... Also I've had leaning EI kill me when from my perspective I never see theri head pop around the corner.. I've also seen EI in the ready stance shoot but not bring their gun up).

That's different from lag kills, which is probably just more noticable now that point blank CP combat is so common.

Edited July 18, 2010 by ZeroAce

[slr]

It does seem to be worse recently. The worst example I've seen was a simulkill where the ei died about 2 seconds into my deathcam view. Ping doesn't really explain such a long delay.

[ZeroAce]

It does seem to be worse recently. The worst example I've seen was a simulkill where the ei died about 2 seconds into my deathcam view. Ping doesn't really explain such a long delay.

That always happened. As someone who use to spend the majority of my infantry time with an SMG clearing buildings, I honestly don't see any difference in the frequency or severity of double lag deaths - Other than the fact that the way the capture system is set up now it basically forces you endure them on a regular basis.

[Nick]

The multiplayer side of game coding is probably the hardest part to get right, I'm amazed that CRS has got things working as well as they have when the players are spread all over the world, most games set a maximum Ping allowed which cuts down on the lag seen in game and also most games don't have the amount of players that we have connected to the server at the same time, just stop and think about how much data the server is receiving and sending at any given moment in time during a battle.

Sending data across the internet is full of problems not least of all the fact that a lot of data never reaches it's destination.

If you are interested in this kind of Networking stuff, have a read of this guys website, it may be hard reading if you have no knowledge of this kind of stuff but it's very informative and helps understand the problems faced.

http://gafferongames.com/networking-for-game-programmers/what-every-programmer-needs-to-know-about-game-networking/

BTW I hate the lag killing as much as you all, it would be great if CRS could make things better but I understand what they are up against and what they have already achieved.

[jaguar12]

very informative read that thread you linked:)

i guess we're just gonna have to wait until technology evolves enough to solve these issues.

ive givin up defending or attacking cps anymore as 9 time outa 10 it involves me dying n get really pissed off.

the sayin 'ENDURE AND OVERCOME' springs to mind!

Edited July 18, 2010 by jaguar12

[bside7]

This have been my issue ever since 1.30. I can no longer effectively play infantry. It is so frustrating, I'm so close to unsubbing, don't want to, but I'm not going to play a game where I'm not competitive in battling another guy in the cp. I play infantry like 99%+ of the time. So this is critical to me.

In 1.30, I didn't have this issue, so it's not LAG per say, or we would have had it in that version too. Something changed and it is way worse now. I have been saying since day 1. People shoot you and you never see them in the cp, but on death cam there they are in the middle of the room shooting you. I have 82ms ping and a very fast computer, so it's nothing to do with that.

Like I have said so many times, in 1.30 at least I always saw the guy and 60% of the time we might end up both dying. With the other 40 split between him either getting the kill or me. I could live with that, I felt competitive.

It is either that terrible slow motion moving/turning code or something to do with tracking multiple people in the cp that has messed it all up, that's my guess.

There is no doubt I will quit this game eventually because infantry play has gotten so bad. It's not a question of if, but rather when, and that seems quiet sad as the game is pretty unique and cool.

very well said!!something needs to happen quick or could be the downfall

[zeta]

Again, this is has nothing to do with lag in general.

Lag isn't the problem.

The way their netcode works is.

Other games with cilent side hit detection do not have this problem of double killing each other because they let the server sort out who legitimately killed who first.

Current situation:

A and B shoot each other -> both die

What you would want:

A and B shoot each other -> only one dies

Are you sure that is what you want? How do you feel about shooting an EI with an SMG burst, and half seconds later you drop dead and nothing happens to the EI? How does that look to the outside observer?

I don't think that would be any better gameplay, if you think it through.

High pings are the problem, and that problem is not going away.

Edited July 20, 2010 by zeta

[zeta]

In 1.30, I didn't have this issue, so it's not LAG per say, or we would have had it in that version too. Something changed and it is way worse now. I have been saying since day 1. People shoot you and you never see them in the cp, but on death cam there they are in the middle of the room shooting you. I have 82ms ping and a very fast computer, so it's nothing to do with that.

What this is about might be that CRS has reduced the amount of "predication".

You see other players shoot, move talk, etc about half seconds late (euro vs euro, or 0,2secs late us vs euro). If someone runs inside the building from a door, you see him come through the door half seconds late.

To prevent that from happening, the game tries to predict what other players are doing. If they are running to direction XX at speed YY, then the game will draw them "ahead" by that much. But in reality the player might have stopped, or changed directions. When this happens, player will "warp" from the predicted location to the real location.

To reduce "warping" CRS might have reduced the amount of prediction in 1.31. This means less warping, but more deaths by people you can't see (because they are 0,5 seconds behind).

[delems]

Regarding your scenario, I would much rather both die than be killed by an invisible killer, even if I died 1/2 second later while running away. The problem is I never even see the person at all, I don't even fire. Happens to me all the time in cps.

And, like I said, I don't think this is LAG per say. It is something else, I never noticed this in 1.30, I always saw my killers in 1.30; this is a new problem that was not there before the new version.

[jaguar12]

i read the article the lad posted above and although i understand the concept of predictor code i cant for the life of me figure out how it is any use for gaming.

your constantly changing direction and speed so how the heck does the predictor code help with that.

[romzburg]

Regarding your scenario, I would much rather both die than be killed by an invisible killer, even if I died 1/2 second later while running away. The problem is I never even see the person at all, I don't even fire. Happens to me all the time in cps.

And, like I said, I don't think this is LAG per say. It is something else, I never noticed this in 1.30, I always saw my killers in 1.30; this is a new problem that was not there before the new version.

"per se", not "per say".

The reason 1.30 is different from 1.31 in this respect is the new infantry animation/update system that was meant to reduce warping.

There is a trade-off between warping and lag, having to do with how the avatar is modeled to move based on the packet updates.

Fewer updates and instant positioning of the avatar to the location of the most recent update gives the best positioning of where he is RIGHT NOW, but that also means he may warp more.

More updates and smoother movement means we don't just reposition him from point a to point be with a warp, it means we *move* him from point a to point B with a smooth animation.

So rather than warp him around the corner suddenly in your face, where you would die to an instantly appearing EI but at least you would *see* him first (and possibly get a simul-kill), we bring him in smoothly, but on his computer he's already inside shooting you as you sit there waiting for the animation to bring him around the corner.

This is why fast moving infantry running into a building have such an advantage. They can be in and shooting you before the nice smooth animation shows them in the same room. They are called lag-phags.

But the nice smooth animation means EI running zig-zag in the open no longer warp all over, now they move much more smoothly and you can shoot them.

It's a trade off, and the balance might not be right yet....

____________________

motormouth:

Much as Romzy's posting style can give me headaches (and the fact that he's "NEVAR WRONG!!"), that post pretty much nails it on the head.

sgtchief:

romz you['re] my damn hero

sydney:

Ya know, at first Romsburg, you rubbed me the wrong way and I wasn't a fan. But over the past 12 months, you have really grown on me. You're precise, well spoken and although you are sometimes a little harsh, you are most often correct and in proper context with your responses.

irelandeb:

indeed he's one of the few voices of common sense on these forums

pete, linc & julie:

I can't say [any]thing else [than] that the ban was justified considering that you have an 'impressive' TOS history....

owilde:

The only thing worse than being talked about is *not* being talked about.

Edited July 20, 2010 by romzburg

[delems]

Died 3 times again today in cp or spawn building, never saw my killer. Lags terrible, standing there, then dead. Death cam shows him there killing me.

1.31 has completely ruined infantry play for me. I am no longer competitive, I'm afraid of going in a cp now, literally.

I don't care how good a game looks, feels etc, if I can't battle on an even bases against my enemy, it's no good.

I now sit in the spawn building afraid to defend cps cause I know I will just die and waste supply, pretty sad.

Worst part, I have the latest iMac you can buy, best there is, and yet infantry battles are terrible. Whatever they changed in 1.31 has ruined this game for me. I will play out my month. Then decide. But it is simply too frustrating to be hand tied and have to sit in a spawn building when I want to be attacking cps and defending them.

I'm very disappointed with this release and how infantry battles play out now.

[ZeroAce]

I was killed around a corner for the first time I noticed. I died, and then I saw him run around the corner and fire.

[dennisb]

Quote:

Originally Posted by delems

This have been my issue ever since 1.30. I can no longer effectively play infantry. It is so frustrating, I'm so close to unsubbing, don't want to, but I'm not going to play a game where I'm not competitive in battling another guy in the cp. I play infantry like 99%+ of the time. So this is critical to me.

In 1.30, I didn't have this issue, so it's not LAG per say, or we would have had it in that version too. Something changed and it is way worse now. I have been saying since day 1. People shoot you and you never see them in the cp, but on death cam there they are in the middle of the room shooting you. I have 82ms ping and a very fast computer, so it's nothing to do with that.

Like I have said so many times, in 1.30 at least I always saw the guy and 60% of the time we might end up both dying. With the other 40 split between him either getting the kill or me. I could live with that, I felt competitive.

It is either that terrible slow motion moving/turning code or something to do with tracking multiple people in the cp that has messed it all up, that's my guess.

There is no doubt I will quit this game eventually because infantry play has gotten so bad. It's not a question of if, but rather when, and that seems quiet sad as the game is pretty unique and cool.

very well said!!something needs to happen quick or could be the downfall

Same for me. Game is unique/innovative however this turns it into a different perspective .. Also when alt-tabbing in Windows 7 my rig here freezes after a certain amount of time .. Tested with other games, happens only when WWIIOL is on .. Anyone got any tips on that ? Perhaps ?

[clone9cz]

Lag is what you get when you have players from all over the world playing on the same server.

The server is located in US, Texas. (or was it moved to west coast?)

For example to me the lag (latency, ping) grows as follows:

Helsinki -> Stockholm : 13 ms

Helsinki -> Amsterdam : 41 ms

Helsinki -> East coast : 145 ms

Helsinki -> Server: 165 ms

165 ms is 0,165 seconds

So lets say we have two players from Europe, players A and B. The following I think is quote close to how things work (I don't know the details):

0,0 s: Player A sends the server a message telling that he killed player B

0,2 s: Server receives the message and sends it to player B (and everyone else who is around)

0,4 s: Player B receives the message that he is dead, dies and tells the server he has died

Meanwhile this all is happening, player B of course can kill A on his own screen, and sends a message to the server that A is dead -> about half seconds later of initial contact both A and B are dead.

your mathematics is good, but you dont undestand ping

Helsinki -> Stockholm -> Helsinki : 13 ms

Helsinki -> Amsterdam -> Helsinki : 41 ms

Helsinki -> East coast -> Helsinki : 145 ms

Helsinki -> Server -> Helsinki : 165 ms

165 ms is 0,165 seconds

0,0 s: Player A sends the server a message telling that he killed player B

0,825 s: Server receives the message and sends it to player B (and everyone else who is around) Why ?

0,165 s: Player B receives the message that he is dead, dies and tells the server he has died client B sends info about start of ragdoll animation, but he is died at message (next 160ms for ragdoll start on client A)

If player B killed someone other in 0.164ms window (1ms before die, .165), someone other can die in next 165ms (total 0.329s).

In other view: if you seen start of ragdoll animation on client C, client B was killed on client B 165ms before and client A shot 329ms before total.

RIGHT ?

Edited July 25, 2010 by clone9cz

[Tatonka]

Same here , last night a french guy comes running toward me after I rounded a corner.

He acted like he never even seen me as I shot him.

[clone9cz]

Same here , last night a french guy comes running toward me after I rounded a corner.

He acted like he never even seen me as I shot him.

Corner shots are something different, it's art of latency war.

[delems]

Most of my invisible deaths are in corner situations. Only recall a couple that were not. So yes, it seems corners has something to do with it. (like old back radio room)

[ZeroAce]

I must say though that the long range game has improved dramatically without the warping EI. I use to never bother with the rifle because it was so bad, but now I'm comfortable using it to pop off targets rapidly.

[jar644]

I agree that something needs to be figured out to fix this. I'm tired of being killed by the same EI that I killed a half second ago.

The new predictor code is great for killing EI at a distance or with tanks, but a confrontation at close range almost always results in either the stationary defender or both people dying.

I understand the ping issues, but the server should be able to sort this out better.

Edited July 26, 2010 by jar644

[delems]

Couple other people today complaining about how bad it is to defend in a cp now. Personally, I don't care about shooting the guy 300m from me. I want to be able to battle up close. That's the game to me, and as it is, it's broke when defending in cps.

[romzburg]

Yeah, the lag killing is pretty damn bad.

This has got absolutely NOTHING tyo do with "PING" etc.

We all know how the internet works, we're not dumb.

1.30 had certain characteristics, 1.31 has different characteristics.

1.31 Lag killing is INSANE, and infuriating.

____________________

motormouth:

Much as Romzy's posting style can give me headaches (and the fact that he's "NEVAR WRONG!!"), that post pretty much nails it on the head.

sgtchief:

romz you['re] my damn hero

sydney:

Ya know, at first Romsburg, you rubbed me the wrong way and I wasn't a fan. But over the past 12 months, you have really grown on me. You're precise, well spoken and although you are sometimes a little harsh, you are most often correct and in proper context with your responses.

irelandeb:

indeed he's one of the few voices of common sense on these forums

pete, linc & julie:

I can't say [any]thing else [than] that the ban was justified considering that you have an 'impressive' TOS history....

owilde:

The only thing worse than being talked about is *not* being talked about.

[dennisb]

Yeah. Amateuristic to say the least. Was just in the Axis navy in Dussen,

firing 2x50 bullets up close on ei reading map, kneeled not moving.

Bullets don't do anything. Instead, I stop firing (thinking death animation would show up) but nonetheless .. the EI FIRES BACK .. and kills me instead.

WTF.

I'm gonna do a FFFUUU post on that lol .. I still have hopes CRS is going to put some fixing in the programming of that .. But if it doesn't .. It's becoming a FUBAR