Matilda bug?

[Tigger6]

That would be hull, upper correct?

That would be 47mm correct?

Easily penetrated by the 50mm. Unless of course we don't even get the PzGr39 munitions and are stuck with just the plain old PzGr stuff.

Whoops even that will penetrate that 47mm upper hull!!

Ohhhh noes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

No, it's the vertical 75mm plate. The 47mm plate is very sloped.

[drucius]

And it stil held 1.5kdr against up-a-tier tank.. not to mention 1.7kdr agaisnt 3h now' date=' when Axis are (again) overpop, and the Matty is apparently broken...[/quote']

At times it's been 0.99, 1.3 and 1.5. The fact is that it's a very formidable tank.

[Bacon55]

No' date=' it's the vertical 75mm plate. The 47mm plate is very sloped.[/quote']

Aye, the 47mm plate is right above the lower hull, going towards the part where it turns up again.

There's a thread in here with a cross section showing the thickness.

The area it's penetrating is 75mm at a bit of an angle. It's equivalent to about 80mm.

[wetspot]

haha Matty killable ? Onooooes !! Cant stop laughing' date=' sry ! hahahaha !:D[/quote']

yawn

hard to kill? of course, it's supposed to be.

unkillable? nigga please

[elrod]

The Matilda doesn't have a drivers vision block.

He either pops out the top or uses a periscope, like a modern tank.

Hopping into offline mode and checking out the other side's equipment is usually a good idea...

I'll bite my tounge and not imply you lack knowledge. That would be rude since I dont know you. Check my campaign stats. Apology accepted.

When you close that Matilda hatch your face is right up against the vision block we are shooting at. No periscope. Here is a photo of a model for you. Hatch/Top removed see the vision block? Now go log in get a Matilda close you hatch and think about it for a sec. Look around before you hit the . key. I think you will see what we are talking about. I will add one other item. There is no way the armor around that vision block is as thick/resistent to penentration as the rest of the frontal armor. Not possible in the 1940's or 50's. Oh, the Red line is the kill shot angle or atleast was from my 3H.

Edited September 19, 2010 by Elrod

[Bacon55]

I'll bite my tounge and not imply you lack knowledge. That would be rude since I dont know you. Check my campaign stats. Apology accepted.

When you close that Matilda hatch your face is right up against the vision block we are shooting at. No periscope. Here is a photo of a model for you. Hatch/Top removed see the vision block? Now go log in get a Matilda close you hatch and think about it for a sec. Look around before you hit the . key. I think you will see what we are talking about. I will add one other item. There is no way the armor around that vision block is as thick/resistent to penentration as the rest of the frontal armor. Not possible in the 1940's or 50's.

Interesting. CRS didn't model it so we can open/close the vision block. All that is there is some black thing - right ahead of the driver. Would have to see the ingame model to see what the thickness is there, although it's worth noting that the area of penetration is well to the right of that.

Edited September 19, 2010 by Bacon55

[Bacon55]

Here's where the penetration is occurring.

[elrod]

Interesting. CRS didn't model it so we can open/close the vision block. All that is there is some black thing - right ahead of the driver. Would have to see the ingame model to see what the thickness is there' date=' although it's worth noting that the area of penetration is well to the right of that.[/quote']

Yea, I was looking at that too. Looking at that really hard, black square wtf. So all in all I would say the damage model is within reason on this one. The angle you show, yeap thats it. Strait frontal has no effect with a 3H on the same location. If you look at the model you can see why one kills the other doesnt. That shots angle sends sweetness all over the interior. Its not an easy shot to make and you have to be in thier face to get penetration. No change in the weather. I rarely get a chance to get that close to the front of a Matty.

[Bacon55]

Yea' date=' I was looking at that too. Looking at that really hard, black square wtf. So all in all I would say the damage model is within reason on this one. The angle you show, yeap thats it. Strait frontal has no effect with a 3H on the same location. If you look at the model you can see why one kills the other doesnt. That shots angle sends sweetness all over the interior. Its not an easy shot to make and you have to be in thier face to get penetration. No change in the weather. I rarely get a chance to get that close to the front of a Matty.[/quote']

That is unless the block is reinforced.

It's not open glass right into the tank.

It's a sliding 75mm thick piece of armour.

It should be no weaker than anywhere else.

Also, the penetration area is right of the block.

Something is definitely awry.

[drucius]

Yea' date=' I was looking at that too. Looking at that really hard, black square wtf. So all in all I would say the damage model is within reason on this one. The angle you show, yeap thats it. Strait frontal has no effect with a 3H on the same location. If you look at the model you can see why one kills the other doesnt. That shots angle sends sweetness all over the interior. Its not an easy shot to make and you have to be in thier face to get penetration. No change in the weather. I rarely get a chance to get that close to the front of a Matty.[/quote']

The open bit on the front of this Matty is the drivers hatch. It's covered by a semi circular armoured door. The small hatch on the front hull is an observation port which is the same thickness as the upper hull. When the driver isn't using the large hatch he would be using the periscope in front of it.

[Scotsman]

Yea' date=' I was looking at that too. Looking at that really hard, black square wtf. So all in all I would say the damage model is within reason on this one. The angle you show, yeap thats it. Strait frontal has no effect with a 3H on the same location. If you look at the model you can see why one kills the other doesnt. That shots angle sends sweetness all over the interior. Its not an easy shot to make and you have to be in thier face to get penetration. No change in the weather. I rarely get a chance to get that close to the front of a Matty.[/quote']

Uh - in a word - no...

A 50mm L-42 shouldn't be capable of the penetration necessary to get spall in that area, never mind outright penetration...if spall is taking place at 90% or so of the armor thickness. Angle off zero degrees will only improve the effective armor...

The only way it could occur is if the direct vision port is modeled at less thickness than it is in reality. As that port is covered by a single uniform armor component, and since edge effects to my knowledge are not modeled on any vehicles in the game...it should be no weaker than the glacis...

I have a friend that owns a runner matilda II and I have a good video of him in the drivers position. I wish I had the time to cut and paste it here...

[elrod]

Vision port then and no its not going to be as strong. Lets put it this way. Drop the Matty into 2 miles of water. Which will burst first the hull or that vision port?

[Scotsman]

Vision port then and no its not going to be as strong. Lets put it this way. Drop the Matty into 2 miles of water. Which will burst first the hull or that vision port?

None of which has anything to do with impact or penetration mechanics...or the way the model is constructed...as long as its a single component and properly seated into the base armor.

The only way it wouln't be strong enough is if edge effects are modeled or if the armor is overmatched or of the hinges/open/close mechanism is modeled as a vulnerability based on angle...

That isn't the case for a 50mm class weapon....or for models in the game. The base armor thickness is thicker than the diameter of the projo.

Edited September 19, 2010 by scotsman

[elrod]

Uh - in a word - no...

A 50mm L-42 shouldn't be capable of the penetration necessary to get spall in that area, never mind outright penetration...if spall is taking place at 90% or so of the armor thickness. Angle off zero degrees will only improve the effective armor...

The only way it could occur is if the direct vision port is modeled at less thickness than it is in reality. As that port is covered by a single uniform armor component, and since edge effects to my knowledge are not modeled on any vehicles in the game...it should be no weaker than the glacis...

I have a friend that owns a runner matilda II and I have a good video of him in the drivers position. I wish I had the time to cut and paste it here...

So your saying the damage model in game considers the whole front hull of an armored vehicle to be uniform at its thickest point without any consideration to other variables? Thats how it translated to me.

Side Comment:

You would be shocked at what can really penetrate what under real conditions. I see your tag and mean no insult but I can post my Master Gunners Certificate from Fort Knox just as shinney. I wont challenge your knowledge of the game but when it comes to what you stick through what when it comes to steel on steel IRL I would think you might want to consider my opinion.

[drucius]

So your saying the damage model in game considers the whole front hull of an armored vehicle to be uniform at its thickest point without any consideration to other variables? Thats how it translated to me.

That wouldn't surprise me. There are many ports and variables on all of the AFV models, but shortcuts had to be made due to the limitations of the game engine.

Side Comment:

You would be shocked at what can really penetrate what under real conditions. I see your tag and mean no insult but I can post my Master Gunners Certificate from Fort Knox just as shinney. I wont challenge your knowledge of the game but when it comes to what you stick through what when it comes to steel on steel IRL I would think you might want to consider my opinion.

Nah, cheers. Modern weapons have nothing to do with weapons and armour from 1940. If you were a historian, maybe.

[bronco69]

http://forums.battlegroundeurope.com/showthread.php?t=339241

Apparently the matty is dying from frontal shots from the PZIIIH.

Pretty sure that shouldn't be happening, even at 0 degrees.

ROFL!!

and how about the PAN that can almost all of our PZRs even frontal ??

[Scotsman]

So your saying the damage model in game considers the whole front hull of an armored vehicle to be uniform at its thickest point without any consideration to other variables? Thats how it translated to me.

Side Comment:

You would be shocked at what can really penetrate what under real conditions. I see your tag and mean no insult but I can post my Master Gunners Certificate from Fort Knox just as shinney. I wont challenge your knowledge of the game but when it comes to what you stick through what when it comes to steel on steel IRL I would think you might want to consider my opinion.

In essence yes - none the typical weakness that would typically be ascribed to welds, fixtures, etc are part of the normal damage models in game.

As for qualifications, I've been involved in designed and testing long rod penetrators to defeat advanced armors for for over 30 years now...so yes...I'd be happy to debate/discuss any portion of the art that is penetration mechanics with you...or anyone else...so long as it doesn't venture into sensitive areas...

[elrod]

None of which has anything to do with impact or penetration mechanics...or the way the model is constructed...as long as its a single component and properly seated into the base armor.

The only way it wouln't be strong enough is if edge effects are modeled or if the armor is overmatched or of the hinges/open/close mechanism is modeled as a vulnerability based on angle...

That isn't the case for a 50mm class weapon....or for models in the game. The base armor thickness is thicker than the diameter of the projo.

Okay I get it its your game your correct no room for error. Any example I use is immediately insulted by CRS representatives . So disregard all of my gibberish. I'm obviously ignorant of any knowledge of armor. So as a stupid player that has no knowledge and you as the Master of Arms here what are you going to do????

By the way I didnt ask what the damage model would do at 2 miles depth. We were talking IRL. As a CRS representitive I think you owe me an apology for what you implied. Yes pressure is pressure its a valid armor integrity test.

[Scotsman]

Okay I get it its your game your correct no room for error. Any example I use is immediately insulted by CRS representatives . So disregard all of my gibberish. I'm obviously ignorant of any knowledge of armor. So as a stupid player that has no knowledge and you as the Master of Arms here what are you going to do????

By the way I didnt ask what the damage model would do at 2 miles depth. We were talking IRL. As a CRS representitive I think you owe me an apology for what you implied. Yes pressure is pressure its a valid armor integrity test.

Ummm...Im not a CRS representative....I'm player like yourself (day one). I just happen to do AFV vulnerability, missile dynamics, and penetration mechanics for a living in the defense industry...

I'm not going to 'do' anything other than try to make you a little smarter about the game and perhaps about full body penetrators and penetration mechanics of full body projectiles, which are very much different from any of the subcaliber stuff with which you have spent a career with.

There is more to armor integrity than any one metric...most of which are not accounted for in the game unfortunately..

[mcketten]

Okay I get it its your game your correct no room for error. Any example I use is immediately insulted by CRS representatives . So disregard all of my gibberish. I'm obviously ignorant of any knowledge of armor. So as a stupid player that has no knowledge and you as the Master of Arms here what are you going to do????

By the way I didnt ask what the damage model would do at 2 miles depth. We were talking IRL. As a CRS representitive I think you owe me an apology for what you implied. Yes pressure is pressure its a valid armor integrity test.

lol - what crs representative? you are kinda new to the game, aren't you?

[elrod]

Ummm...Im not a CRS representative....I'm player like yourself (day one). I just happen to do AFV vulnerability, missile dynamics, and penetration mechanics for a living in the defense industry...

I'm not going to 'do' anything other than try to make you a little smarter about the game and perhaps about full body penetrators and penetration mechanics of full body projectiles, which are very much different from any of the subcaliber stuff with which you have spent a career with.

There is more to armor integrity than any one metric...most of which are not accounted for in the game unfortunately..

So we are arguing over nothing then. I tell you what there's a good moonshine still and a welding torch out at my ranch. Load up your buddies Matty, lets get drunk and end the debate. I'm just north of Dallas near Paris. Nearest neighbors are 10 miles away. We can play and no one will complain.

[Scotsman]

And just to clear up something else that seems to have run off course on the thread....the armored flap that everyone is looking at here actually covers another armor plate with 4 horizontal slits cut through it...

That is what the driver looks through when the flap is up - no glass - but more armor...

I would also like to point out that most Matildas are never driven that way....either the driver opens the hatch and drives head out or he uses the periscope..which has sighting vanes to insure the driver stays on the straight and narrow.

I will try and post some photos taken from the inside of a 1939 Vulcan Foundries Matilda II CS tank...one of several a friend of mine owns thats a runner. It will show everyone the drivers periscope and other direct vision arrangements...

[Scotsman]

So we are arguing over nothing then. I tell you what there's a good moonshine still and a welding torch out at my ranch. Load up your buddies Matty' date=' lets get drunk and end the debate. I'm just north of Dallas near Paris. Nearest neighbors are 10 miles away. We can play and no one will complain.[/color']

thanks for the offer - but unless you can teleport one of 3 from Australia...it won't happen. He owns a ranch in the outback with several matildas...

I will post photos from inside the vehicle though...in the drivers seat...

It will be tomorrow...pulling them off the videos I have this evening for posting...hopefully that will clarify things for everyone.

Edited September 19, 2010 by scotsman

[drucius]

lol - what crs representative? you are kinda new to the game' date=' aren't you?[/quote']

But he's GHC! We should treat him like the grand high poobah he obviously is.

[Bacon55]

ROFL!!

and how about the PAN that can almost all of our PZRs even frontal ??

The 25mm HV gun on the Panhard is more than capable of penetrating the 30mm front armour of any tier 0 panzer at certain ranges.

The 50mm L42 of the PZIIIH should never be able to penetrate the front armour of a Matilda.