beddy bug

[doa]

I hear this black out is being looked into, I have also heard you rats say, " when you are driving fast over rough terrain you are supposed to black out" whoever put that idea in your head is an idiot, I have driven upwards of 50 mph over Very rough terrain and have yet to black out, you can flip end over end in any veh in this game and you wont black out, today driving through golf forest at 20k I was blacking out, finally just set fru and walked cuz it was faster, you cant fix anything until you first admit something is wrong, saying you are "supposed to black out at 25k on rough terrain is Preposterous. Been there done that, you dont black out. stop making excuses for it and fix the stupid beddy black out bug, geeshhh!

'

[noons]

Vehicles:

- Fixed spawning in upside down at some locations with certain vehicles

- Fixed the black out bug for trucks

From the 1.32 thread. Hopefully this will be done soon doa. The beddy and opel both have suffered from this.

[doa]

From the 1.32 thread. Hopefully this will be done soon doa. The beddy and opel both have suffered from this.

That would be awesome if true

The beddy and opel both have suffered from this. true, but the beddy is Much Much worse, almost unplayable

Edited December 1, 2010 by doa

[clone9cz]

I spend 20 minutes of my life on Beddy, nothing happend, need more data ...

I think, v1.32.5.7 have disabled camera shake.

Retested on 1.32.4 = beddy is same like opel (same problem at same place and same speed) !!!

PLS, DON'T CRY AND DON'T RIDE DIRECTLY TO E, W, N and S, it will help

Edited out the random insult.

Edited December 13, 2010 by fearny

[jdub]

I spend 20 minutes of my life on Beddy, nothing happend, need more data ...

I think, v1.32.5.7 have disabled camera shake.

Retested on 1.32.4 = beddy is same like opel (same problem at same place and same speed) !!!

PLS, ALLY DWEEBS, DON'T CRY AND DON'T RIDE DIRECTLY TO E, W, N and S, it will help

Calling people names is really helpful to be sure, This is my 2nd account, my primary account is jw, and I'm same rank as you in German army, Lt Col. so I doubt my view on the black out bug is biased. It is not fixed, here are two shots at the same location, same speed, one with beddy, one with opel, and rats, dont tell me you are supposed to black out at 20k driving a truck of any flavor, it dont happen, thes pics were taken on testing sever today, 12/6/2010

http://s995.photobucket.com/albums/af71/jwandta/?action=view&current=SShot5-1.jpg&newest=1

http://s995.photobucket.com/albums/af71/jwandta/?action=view&current=SShot5-2.jpg

both pics taken at low speed, one with beddy, black out, one with opel, no black out

[GOPHUR]

I hear this black out is being looked into, I have also heard you rats say, " when you are driving fast over rough terrain you are supposed to black out" whoever put that idea in your head is an idiot, I have driven upwards of 50 mph over Very rough terrain and have yet to black out, you can flip end over end in any veh in this game and you wont black out, today driving through golf forest at 20k I was blacking out, finally just set fru and walked cuz it was faster, you cant fix anything until you first admit something is wrong, saying you are "supposed to black out at 25k on rough terrain is Preposterous. Been there done that, you dont black out. stop making excuses for it and fix the stupid beddy black out bug, geeshhh!

'

Try in a 1940 ford. I've done it in a beater truck. The terrain is modeled to have a bump map that is not polygons. This is to simulate rough terrain so that your tank view wobbles up and down instead of looking like your driving on a parking lot. Off road here is not a pasture it is farmland wether it looks it or not.

These bumps will make your suspension break, flat your tires and make you bang your head on the roof. They'll also jostle you enough to scramble your brains.

You'll probably fare better in a modern Raptor but a delivery truck from the 40's? Seriously...

[GOPHUR]

Calling people names is really helpful to be sure, This is my 2nd account, my primary account is jw, and I'm same rank as you in German army, Lt Col. so I doubt my view on the black out bug is biased. It is not fixed, here are two shots at the same location, same speed, one with beddy, one with opel, and rats, dont tell me you are supposed to black out at 20k driving a truck of any flavor, it dont happen, thes pics were taken on testing sever today, 12/6/2010

http://s995.photobucket.com/albums/af71/jwandta/?action=view&current=SShot5-1.jpg&newest=1

http://s995.photobucket.com/albums/af71/jwandta/?action=view&current=SShot5-2.jpg

both pics taken at low speed, one with beddy, black out, one with opel, no black out

Spent some time rolloing around Antwerp in a Beddy. i did get one black out when I was near the railroad tiles but not along the river similar to your picture. I'd say it is definitely improved but there's still something under the hood not right.

I dunno if it is the suspension on the vehicle or what. Before I blacked out i was getting plenty of feedback that I was bouncing all over the place and that's pretty much what I would suspect at 30 mph off road in this truck but I'm going to take a look at this. This only came about in 1.31 I think so i'll go back and compare these truck files and see what's different.

I've asked Martini to look into the code side as well and see what more he can tweak.

I'll re-word the read me to say "improved vehicle black out over rough terrain".

[jdub]

Seriously, Thank you for looking at this Gophur. On the subject of blacking out, I have driven the roughest veh known to mankind, try a 1950 short wheel base 38,000 lb. bogie tandem mack truck, across rough terrain at wild cat oil rigs, at 30k it is very very uncomfortable, and you bump your head on the roof from time to time, but you dont "black out" not ever. Maybe its much better now with the stated improvements in 1.32, will check it out before complaining anymore about it. Again thanks.

[branko]

To be clear:

1. I have not tested in new version - I will

2. In old version (since 1.31) I could drive on exactly the same piece of ground in a non-cardinal direction (e.g. NE) and suffer NO black out

2a. In old version (since 1.31) I could drive on exactly the same piece of ground in a cardinal direction (i.e. N, E, S , W) and suffer BLACK OUT

3. To be clearer: As black out approached, without dropping speed, turning the vehicle away from a cardinal-heading would make the black-out "warning" disappear.

This is NOT speed related.

This did not happen to the beddy in 1.30.x - It may have happened in the opel, I do not know.

GOPHER, are you hinting that the bump map effect will be affected by the direction of travel? If so ... then working as coded (if not intended, probably) ... If not, then the direction of travel is where the bug resides.

[GOPHUR]

it could be direction related. i haven't replicated that but I have seen odd direction related things before.

I'm adding your notes to the ticket.

[GOPHUR]

@jdub well no of course you dont. you don;t drive with a mouse either! Blackout is the mechanism the physics engine uses to report unpleasanet physical effects your body is suffering. Like if you shake a baby really hard. Don;t do that by the way, it isn't good for them.

[jdub]

@jdub well no of course you dont. you don;t drive with a mouse either! Blackout is the mechanism the physics engine uses to report unpleasanet physical effects your body is suffering. Like if you shake a baby really hard. Don;t do that by the way' date=' it isn't good for them.[/quote']

LOL at the baby shaking analogy, Ok fair enough, the effect is to tell you that you need to slow down, the problem is black out occurs at ridiculously slow speeds, even in towns, as well as fields. And the only real problem is with the beddy, opel's will black out at times, but it's rare, I have never blacked out in a laffy.

[GOPHUR]

Yeah which leads me to believe it was exacerbated by model changes.

[jwilly]

This and another discussion have got me thinking on this. Excuse the engineering-ese.

My understanding is that the truck models have a suspension-spring constant, a suspended-mass value, and maybe some damping. It's these parameters that the physics engine works with to calculate the vertical acceleration that results when the truck-object is moved nominally-horizontally over a non-flat (bump mapped) physics surface, and the truck-location-point moves up and down as it moves across that bump-mapped theoretical surface.

I don't recall any Rat ever discussing whether the truck models have enough damping that their vertical resonance frequency doesn't involve acceleration peaks and dips.

Normally one would expect a real vehicle to be designed to operate with suspension forced-input frequencies well above resonance, in a system that's highly overdamped. Suppose in the process of model revisions, either the Bedford's suspended mass or its spring constant was changed, or maybe its damping was considerably decreased. Maybe what would result would be a vehicle with inadequately damping, that can be operated at its suspension resonance frequency given the vertical motion profile that results at low speed with the existing bump map.

Apply a forced input to a lightly damped resonant system around its resonance frequency, and you'll find a particular frequency (i.e. speed) where vertical acceleration is greatly magnified.

So maybe the Bedford's suspended mass value was decreased to make it climb hills better? Maybe the damping was decreased by accident?

A tentative fix would be to decrease the spring constant (say, by 50%) and add damping (say, 10x or more).

[branko]

But that wouldn't explain why heading - rather than speed - seems to be as much to blame, would it, jw?

Maybe it would, if the dampening was broken only for certain directions of travel - if it worked that way - but I doubt it?

The beddy issue did occur after the repaint ... And I also remember a note in a readme somewhere about fixing its hill climb ability (at one point, it would hardly climb over a berm).

Somewhere along the line, something got changed that has affected the ability to drive in cardinal directions ... often on any surface you can find in game ... About the only surface I can find that is not affected by direction of travel is the normal roads ... Even some city tiles (with cobbled surfaces) have blackout occur.

[clone9cz]

A tentative fix would be to decrease the spring constant (say, by 50%) and add damping (say, 10x or more).

Great idea, change it 10x and we will got bedford with dumper from 21 century, no thx.

Ok, where is problem. Redout and blackout are applyed on head, head is mounted to body, and body is mounted to truck via driver seat and basic question is: Are there any component working like dumper, without real truck dumper.

Yes, there are driver seat and skeleton.

This is first half of redout blackout problem, second is terrain (flutter).

[jwilly]

But that wouldn't explain why heading - rather than speed - seems to be as much to blame' date=' would it, jw? (...) Somewhere along the line, something got changed that has affected the ability to drive in cardinal directions ... .[/quote']

When I first experienced bump maps, years ago, one observable characteristic was that they were defined as a fixed-geometry wave function.

Think of the invisible physics plane as consisting of a single-axis sinusoidal surface, with ridges and valleys aligned along the north-south axis, for instance. Or maybe it's two sinusoids at right angles, so that it's a square grid of peak-points and hole-points. I'm pretty sure that none of the bump maps are more complex than that. AFAIK, they're always regular, and never pseudo random.

Let's assume that all the bump maps are still single-axis, as they were when they were introduced.

On such a surface, if your direction-of-movement is exactly aligned with the directional pattern of the ridges and valleys, you experience minimal or zero bump input. At a slight angle mismatch, your bump input frequency is very low for a given speed.

If OTOH your direction-of-movement is at right angles to the ridge-and-valley pattern, your bump input frequency is maximized for a given speed.

I think the common observation that blackout is highly dependent on direction of travel would be consistent with an undamped resonant system with its input forcing frequency determined by direction of travel.

I don't think there was a change to the system that increased dependency on cardinal direction. Rather, the system just became much more sensitive, and the existing dependency on cardinal direction became much more obvious.

[jwilly]

A better example: think of single axis bump-map terrain as being like a plowed field. All the furrows are straight and parallel across the field. If the tractor was going alternately north and then south as it was plowed, all the furrows are along a north-south axis. Drive a truck across that plowed field headed north, and it won't be bumpy at all. Drive the same truck across the same field headed east, and it'll be maximally bumpy.

If the field is two-axis bump mapped, there'll be two sets of furrows superimposed, presumably at right angles. Then the maximally smooth axes will be every ninety degrees, and the maximally bumpy axes will be at the 45 degree intervals between those smooth axes.

[branko]

I know what you're saying, jw.

But North-South is as bad as East-West, so unless the BM is cross-hatched (if you see what I mean) then I don't really see how it is that.

And if it is cross-hatched, then I'd be a bit amazed at how driving at 45-degress to it made the affect disappear.

Hopefully RATs figure out what it is and fix it, it got so that driving a beddy became far too much like hard work for me to want to do.

(That's if I figure out my gfx crash since 1.32.7 that means I currrently cannot play at all).

[jdub]

the blackouts will occur at ridiculously slow speeds in town even on coble stone ways, it needs fixed, end of story