Plink kills still being reported long after plink occurs

[rebel357]

In this sorti, I was flying BARCAP around Etain and followed a 109 north early and killed him. I was in a running dogfight that occurred after that in the Thionville area. After getting plinked by Bonifitas in has 109f2 I decided to leave the area. I ended up back at Metz where I continued my sortie and killed several more EA. I ended the sortie in a collision with a stuka. The kill was awarded to the 109f2 who plinked me in that early dogfight. I wasn't smoking and had no control issues and my pilot was unharmed.

SORTIE DETAILS

Rebel357

Lt. Colonel

French Air Force

Sep 12 2001

Detailed information about a single sortie can be found here.

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SORTIE DETAILS

Origin CP: Etain

Origin Fac: Rouvres Airfield

Mission: Point Defense

Unit: H81-a2

Started: Dec 20 08:14

Stopped: Dec 20 09:03

Kills: 8

Caps: 0

Damages: 10

TOM: 49 min

Success: No

Crit. Dam.: Yes

Result: Killed in Action

SORTIE CREW-MEMBERS

Lt Col Rebel357

CRITICAL DAMAGE FROM

QM Sgt Bonifatus (DE/AF) Bf109F2

AFTER ACTION REPORT

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SORTIE KILLS

KILLED OPPONENT PERSONA ORIGIN UNIT K C T

Dec 20 08:21 Pvt Bores DE Air Force Metz Bf109E1 0 0 3

Dec 20 08:23 Corp Vtarngpb DE Air Force Metz Bf109F2 0 0 9

Dec 20 08:25 Pvt Otto1951 DE Air Force Metz Bf109E1 0 0 5

Dec 20 08:28 Lt Lima DE Air Force Metz Bf109E4 1 0 7

Dec 20 08:48 Lt Lima DE Air Force Metz Bf110c 0 0 17

Dec 20 08:57 Pvt Shifty1 DE Air Force Metz Stuka 1 0 16

Dec 20 08:59 Col Sgt Yorksarg DE Air Force Metz Heinkel 0 0 3

Dec 20 09:03 Rec Morder0 DE Air Force Metz Stuka 0 0

I was killed at 9:03 when I collided and Boni's sorti ended at 8:30 so he was awarded a kill a full 30 minutes after he was killed in that same dogfight.

SORTIE DETAILS

Bonifatus

QM Sergeant

German Air Force

Jul 18 2010

Detailed information about a single sortie can be found here.

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SORTIE DETAILS

Origin CP: Metz

Origin Fac: Frescaty Airfield

Mission: Area Defense

Unit: Bf109F2

Started: Dec 20 08:21

Stopped: Dec 20 08:31

Kills: 3

Caps: 0

Damages: 3

TOM: 10 min

Success: No

Crit. Dam.: Yes

Result: Killed in Action

SORTIE CREW-MEMBERS

QM Sgt Bonifatus

CRITICAL DAMAGE FROM

Sgt Maj Flyingwolf (FR/AF) H81-a2

AFTER ACTION REPORT

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SORTIE KILLS

KILLED OPPONENT PERSONA ORIGIN UNIT K C T

Dec 20 08:29 2nd Lt Magnio1 UK Air Force Etain Spit 2b 2 0 16

Dec 20 08:32 Sgt Amstal UK Air Force Etain Blen I 1 0 11

Dec 20 09:03 Lt Col Rebel357 FR Air Force Etain H81-a2 8 0 49

[micke]

Yepp, happens to me to

I think there is a plink timer but sometimes its fubar and gives credit to a 10 min old plink

[DOC]

The report says you took critical damage. That isn't a "plink" that is flagged as a kill. Can't remove that flag just because the guy ended his sortie before you did. Critical damage is an automatic "kill" award.

My question would be "what was the damage he did?" "Why did you have a critcal attribute flagged and obviously still flew around fighting for 30 more minutes?"

Critical damage is limited to:

Engine damage that leads to engine loss

Pilot Death

Loss of wing or wings

Loss of tail section or tail control surfaces

Loss of all guns (this almost never happens, it's borderline impossible for you to do this kind of damage and the plane still be flying)

So maybe the issue isn't "plink" kills but a stray "critical" attribute that shouldn't be flagged but is somehow, somewhere in the code. That would explain why it has been so hard to find the problem if this were the case. Maybe you could help out here in finding this ? Critics are a dime a dozen but problem solvers are as rare as hens teeth. We can use all the help we can get, because we are so few. Wanna do that ? I'd sure appreciate it.

[Slpr]

... After getting plinked by Bonifitas in has 109f2 ... I ended the sortie in a collision with a stuka.

...

The report says you took critical damage. That isn't a "plink" that is flagged as a kill. Can't remove that flag just because the guy ended his sortie before you did. Critical damage is an automatic "kill" award. ...

he did not have any critical damage. he is refering to sorties with any kind of not critical damage received prior and after the supposedly punish-free 60 second timer, where you end up dead due to a collission, crash or to the AI. actually the code is able to reward such, for example when you RTB your burning plane on the airfield.

nonetheless i still believe this is more a bug report about preconception than a real issue. i think when you end up dead in your plane with any kind of damage given prior, a kill should be awarded as it is right now. annoying for some perhaps but still fair in terms of the game.

so long slpr

[speed]

Im sorry,seems a little silly to me.A bofors gets shot by a 232,the 32 gets the kill,but the bofors still keeps shooting&killing stuff.

I can understand the critical damage in a tank..eng kill or whatever,but atgs/bofors..doesnt make any sence,people getting a kill credit and stuff still killing around things around.

Critical area of shot gets the kill and the avatar has to go down.Plain&simple,me thinks.

S!

Speed

[DOC]

Rebel357 took critical damage on that sortie from the player that he says "plinked" him:

SORTIE CREW-MEMBERS

Lt Col Rebel357

CRITICAL DAMAGE FROM

QM Sgt Bonifatus (DE/AF) Bf109F2

That was the basis of my earlier response. I'd like to pursue any avenue that helps get to the bottom of things. That means results/analysis from objective testing and observation. Appreciate your opinion but we're trying to solve stuff in this forum.

WRT the bofors thing Speedbird brings up, there are only 2 ways to crit a Bofors as far as what the code is reckoning:

1. Kill the gunner

2. Destroy the gun itself (breech or barrel damage threshold being exceeded from impacts)

If you kill the gunner, a crit is awarded, but like all regular infantry damage modeling, he might not be fully dead for 1 or 2 minutes after the "killing" damage was taken. Infantry in this game will bleed out as well as die instantly, there is a lot of variety in this respect. He might also die immediately just not every time. It's not an off/on switch. Sure in real life you don't keep fighting on until your last gasp (usually, although it did happen sometimes) but in a game, everyone fights until they are black screen dead no matter what.

We could change things I suppose to be more like an on/off switch. That would mean medics don't ever have to be modeled because everyone would be dead, or alive, and nothing in between. Disabling weapons behaviour due to "degrees" of wounding is I would think, a long way from where we are right now. Cool yeah, but coming tomorrow ? I don't think so. In another game I played a bit that allowed you to be "incapacitated" but not dead, because it was realistic ... this feature proved to be hated by almost everyone because it made you useless. "May as well just kill me!" was the catch cry of that period and it's easy to understand why.

Just adds weight to us doing it as "dead or alive and nothing else" but that isn't what we started out with, which is why we're where we are now.

[rebel357]

I would be glad to help! Im in game now if you need me

[DOC]

testing in beta, not the campaign game

have you joined the closed beta team ?

you need to be super objective, not prone to outbursts when you come across stuff that is fubar or wrong (it's beta testing of new game builds afterall) and extremely analytical, with zero pre-conceived ideas

think you can handle it ? *one raised eyebrow*

heh heh, mate you know you were asking for that LOL

[Raus]

testing in beta, not the campaign game

have you joined the closed beta team ?

you need to be super objective, not prone to outbursts when you come across stuff that is fubar or wrong (it's beta testing of new game builds afterall) and extremely analytical, with zero pre-conceived ideas

think you can handle it ? *one raised eyebrow*

heh heh, mate you know you were asking for that LOL

How much time do you require of closed beta testers?

[rebel357]

im only struggling with a couple of those issues If your inviting me in, i can change my attitude a little

[DOC]

as much as they can give us Raus, but it's not regular and it tends to follow the intensity of any given moment in any given dev. cycle

kind of like, starts off easy, then as deadlines get close it gets more pressurized

most of all it's the process that throws people off, some think it's a "closer to the rats" complaints avenue and that isn't the case at all

it requires a real effort at "scientific method" where objectivity rules, and undestanding why and how is much more important than thinking you know why and how before you get started

results form opinions not the other way around

it's fun if you have the right mind set

if you don't, it's frustrating as hell and you'll hate it

Reb, I don't want this to be a bad experience if you know what I mean, ball is in your court

[rebel357]

I wont have time for it when im on the road again but would be willing to help kill this particular bug at any time. I do appriciate the offer

[beazil]

Don't know if this will help the conversation or not. Last night I lifted an F2, and got bounced at 3k. My killer hit my pilot - grazing him, or he'd have been dead. He also shot out what I assume was my governor, as I had zero engine power, but was still running.

I vectored to my home airfeild immediately hoping to escape into the protection of friendly flak. My opponent did not follow, but I was unable to rtb. I had to ditch near a friendly town just west of our airfield (I can't remember which one). Anyways, I sat for a minute before despawning to see if my attacker would come back to finish the job. He never did. I wound up with a rescue and no killer. Don't know if this is useful info or not, but I thought I'd share it. Likely he did not damage a "critical" component, and I was able to land safely - but I'm just speculating because I don't know for sure.

[Tigger6]

Don't know if this will help the conversation or not. Last night I lifted an F2, and got bounced at 3k. My killer hit my pilot - grazing him, or he'd have been dead. He also shot out what I assume was my governor, as I had zero engine power, but was still running.

I vectored to my home airfeild immediately hoping to escape into the protection of friendly flak. My opponent did not follow, but I was unable to rtb. I had to ditch near a friendly town just west of our airfield (I can't remember which one). Anyways, I sat for a minute before despawning to see if my attacker would come back to finish the job. He never did. I wound up with a rescue and no killer. Don't know if this is useful info or not, but I thought I'd share it. Likely he did not damage a "critical" component, and I was able to land safely - but I'm just speculating because I don't know for sure.

This is the correct and usual behavior.

[DOC]

It seems people still aren't quite on the same page yet WRT "plinks".

This was changed when we introduced bailing out.

If you take any damage whatsoever, and your plane crashes (which is the result of a bailout 100% of the time) ... it doesn't have to be CRITICAL damage; the score will be no death to you but a kill to your "plinker". That's the downside of bailing out, you lost the aircraft and your shooter gets the credit no matter what amount of damage he did.

If you ditch your plane, same deal. After bailout was added to the game, the ONLY way to get out of a kill for your attacker (even when you have no death because your pilot lived)when your plane is damaged is to RTB to a friendly airfield.

Kills are not the same as deaths for pilots, because the aircraft can be "killed" (lost to your side) even when the pilot survives. Deaths of pilots are of course, always kills for obvious reasons, because the plane and the pilot are both lost. Kills in the game with respect to vehicle combat, are VEHICLE kills. A pilot killed does subsequently kill the vehicle.

If the plane is lost or ditched, plink kills are supposed to be awarded. That is not an error. The error might however be timing related (it's supposed to not be awarded if you survive 60 seconds without being hit again) but that is completely different to the event as a function. A timer modifies an existing event. It doesn't stop it from having occured, in fact, the event has to occur for a timer to be relevant to it.

PS: if you take CRITICAL damage (as opposed to non critical damage which is what a "plink" really is to the code) a kill will be awarded for your aircraft being damaged even if you successfully RTB, as CRITICAL damage (as opposed to plinks) assumes the aircraft is written off even if it RTBs. That is intended functionality also. If critical damage is incorrectly flagged, the error is in the flag, not that your shooter got a kill when the damage occured and the flag was tripped. An incorrect flag state doesn't mean the kill awarding was incorrect, only that the flag was.

[rebel357]

DOC I am 100% certain I flew for 30 minutes without taking another hit. If that can be fixed then the kill system is perfect. I am pretty sure I took no critical damage to my engine because it survived 30 more minutes and running max max most of the time. I was not hit in any way other than a vertical stab or horizontal stab hit at best. Flew around killing EA for a full 30 minutes.

If you need help testing for this I will be glad to help. If its correct function and the kill is right then I must be reading your reply wrong.

Thanks

Reb

[Raus]

Similar situation happened last night to me. Took minor hits (visible hit sprites on horizontal stabilizer, no audible feedback--no noticeable adverse effects) then proceeded to fly for several minutes until dying in a ram.

Killer was awarded who had already RTBed before my death.

[DOC]

We found something that, while things work as expected for the first 30 minutes or so, it goes wrong after that.

Weird. When we find the cause it should be one for the record books.

[Raus]

I recommend that CRS not take a holiday break. You are on a roll!

[rebel357]

Glad to hear it DOC! And ya didnt even need my help!!

Take the next two days off!!!

[clone9cz]

I have some additional info from ground units.

I spend hours in attack few weeks ago and was destroyed by Stu on gray panzer finnaly, but he was not scored on me. Kill was added to H39, which was destroyed my LMG in turret at beginning, nothing more, no crew wounded, hull MG, turret gun, engine, trucks, fuel, clutch ... all work fine.

Stats said. You was killed by H39 at 21:15 and H39 mission was stopped at 20:10.

[gutted]

We found something that, while things work as expected for the first 30 minutes or so, it goes wrong after that.

Weird. When we find the cause it should be one for the record books.

In my experiences doc.. it happens even after just 5-10 minutes (even less)

Edited December 26, 2010 by gutted

[gutted]

(it's supposed to not be awarded if you survive 60 seconds without being hit again)

Thats exactly it DOC. If you survive (.ie ditch and live) after that time no kill is awarded.

But...

If you do something stupid that causes you to die.. like smash into a hangar, hit a tree, flop to your death, ram a plane (or anything that causes your pilot to die).. you will get a killer against you if you have any amount of prior damage no matter how long ago you recieved said damage.

That is the issue we are bringing up. In our experiences.. the damage is not forgotten about. It's merely ignored if you ditch or bail after some time. Death on the other-hand will still remember any prior damage (even if it's not critical) regardless of time.. even if the pilot who caused that damage has already died or rtb'd himself (the infamous UNKNOWN KILLER when you ram someone).

I think with the recent scoring changes, most people expected alot of the weird cases of someone getting a kill on you to go away because of the timer that was talked about.. but that is not the case. It may well be working as intended. But IMO i think there's been alot of confusion over gophur's wording of the new scoring system in one of the updates rergarding the timer.

Edited December 27, 2010 by gutted

[gutted]

must have missed this post by doc:

The report says you took critical damage. That isn't a "plink" that is flagged as a kill. Can't remove that flag just because the guy ended his sortie before you did. Critical damage is an automatic "kill" award.

.

.

.

.

So maybe the issue isn't "plink" kills but a stray "critical" attribute that shouldn't be flagged but is somehow, somewhere in the code. That would explain why it has been so hard to find the problem if this were the case.......

Well maybe thats the problem. Maybe when your pilot dies, the code looks to see if there was prior damage and flags it as critical? Obviously when the pilot lives and ditches successfully this is not a problem. The only thing different between the two is the pilot dying.

[gutted]

Just did a pretty interesting test on the training server with jester which confirms our gripes.

Will be posting the video soon.