Flop due to hit

[bronco69]

So a single cannon hit from an allied plane can cause my 109 F-2 to flop ?? and no ... i didnt lose my tail.

the 109 has now become to one of the worst planes we have on axis side with the latest update

[Raus]

Don't get hit?

[Raus]

Although I wouldn't have posted like Bronco, its true that any minor damage makes it impossible to trim the F2.

[DOC]

It all depends on where you are hit, and how much, but a single 20mm round ? No, but 3 in one spot might do it, depending on where that spot is. If it's your elevator, horizontal stabilizer, or vertical stabilizer it's going to be very possible to lose control of the aircraft becuase the tail is where most of your stability comes from, and even if the damage is in say ... one of your wings, if you yank the plane hard that might also mean you have lost enough flight envelope to depart when normally you wouldn't have. This stuff isn't restricted to 109's either, even though all aircraft behave differently. Since they are different aircraft with different flight envelopes they always will behave differently, they were designed that way. 109s for example have a relatively high wing loading, and don't like being yanked around at low speeds very much.

[Raus]

Doc, the F2 departs from minor damage. Not excess drag or reduced speed. It departs and is unable to be trimmed at all. Even if there is no input from your input device. Not sure of the parameters (what parts taking damage, how much damage) though. This can be tested easily enough in the training server.

[DOC]

What damage, how much ... where ? I shoot your left wheel and the plane instantly departs ? If you don't know the answer (how much, where?) then don't guess, that won't get anything fixed. First step is how is this diffferent than before ?

The deeper you bury the needle in the haystack the less likely it will be found, even though we will be looking for it. The trick is to remove all the hay, that makes the needle easier to find. If we find the needle you are talking about it will be fixed straight away. Never report anything that makes that harder to do, which includes assumption, guesses, pet theories and frustrated rage. If you don't have any actual testing results or facts, either get some or wait until someone (including us) does. We want everything perfect too just like you do.

Remember, all we changed with the 109s this patch was how much stick input/elevator authority the user has ... reducing the amount of over-control you have available, we didn't touch any other part of the planes data. They should be departing from damage not a lot differently than they did before, although your ability to control a departure should actually be better than before (given you still have control, which you might not have if enough damage is done to a specific part of the plane) ... if this is not the case I want to know why and to fix it but that will require ABSOLUTE ACCURACY in reporting because every report that serves as a rant, or an exaggeration, or a guess or an assumption will SLOW THIS TYPE OF FIXING DOWN because we have to wade through stuff that takes a lot of time that wasn't pointing at the real problem.

We want what you want, even if we can't act as quickly as you would like. If there is an issue we want it fixed yesterday too. Be honest, you'd like it yesterday so no point not understanding that. We undertsand it, we just can't deliver that, but we can do things as quickly as time and resources allow. Help us to do this and we can go a little faster.

[bronco69]

i had EA on my 6 ... he hits me 1x ... and the 109 instantly starts to flop... and it felt like the "explosion blast" made my 109 flop

i was flying "almost" straight ... no real curve... no climb/descend ... nothing

i know what i means to loose your tail... specially when you fly a STUKA. that happens alot in that plane. i checked my 6 after that hit and when i started to flop ... tail was still there... then 2 secs later i black/red out... until i crash into ground

Edited December 21, 2010 by bronco69

[dabar0n]

What damage, how much ... where ? I shoot your left wheel and the plane instantly departs ? If you don't know the answer (how much, where?) then don't guess, that won't get anything fixed. First step is how is this diffferent than before ?

The deeper you bury the needle in the haystack the less likely it will be found, even though we will be looking for it. The trick is to remove all the hay, that makes the needle easier to find. If we find the needle you are talking about it will be fixed straight away. Never report anything that makes that harder to do, which includes assumption, guesses, pet theories and frustrated rage. If you don't have any actual testing results or facts, either get some or wait until someone (including us) does. We want everything perfect too just like you do.

Remember, all we changed with the 109s this patch was how much stick input/elevator authority the user has ... reducing the amount of over-control you have available, we didn't touch any other part of the planes data. They should be departing from damage not a lot differently than they did before, although your ability to control a departure should actually be better than before (given you still have control, which you might not have if enough damage is done to a specific part of the plane) ... if this is not the case I want to know why and to fix it but that will require ABSOLUTE ACCURACY in reporting because every report that serves as a rant, or an exaggeration, or a guess or an assumption will SLOW THIS TYPE OF FIXING DOWN because we have to wade through stuff that takes a lot of time that wasn't pointing at the real problem.

We want what you want, even if we can't act as quickly as you would like. If there is an issue we want it fixed yesterday too. Be honest, you'd like it yesterday so no point not understanding that. We undertsand it, we just can't deliver that, but we can do things as quickly as time and resources allow. Help us to do this and we can go a little faster.

Thanks DOC. I will be willing to help test this after the holiday. Unfortunately it really isn't an exaggeration. The E4 is pretty stable but does require combat flaps to manuever well. The F model is different animal. I have to say that I have noticed this as well but I am unable to tell you (until I get a chance to test it) how much and where the damage hit. This has been the experience though. One example was the other night when a spit fire snapshot my right wing in passing. I was going over 300 kph and the plane wanted to nose over on itself hard right. If I let up back pressure on the stick or tried to straighten the plane out, it literally went tail over nose. I recovered the flop, added 36% combat flaps (which now adds lift and stability but causes it to nose down...very odd feeling) and was able to belly land it.

This does seem to be relatively normal though. Unless you use combat flaps even if you are easy on the stick the F has a tendency to try to nose over itself. With even a very small amount of damage the plane doesn't hesitate to let you know it wants to kill you. To show what the flop tendency is, gutted has a great little video of it in the hangar that shows it very well at the end of the fight. He is easily one of the smoothest sticks in the game and you can notice the plane constantly try to nose down and him ease off the stick.

I have my settings back to default, trim neutral, and am using rudder pedals so no unintentional rudder input is being applied (actually one of the most frustrating aspects of the change, you can not use rudder even a little in a turn or roll or it will now tail over nose.)

Don't get me wrong, I like much this patch has to offer. After christmas I will be willing to help test to help refine it and give more solid data.

S!

dab

[dabar0n]

Bronco also adds a good point about the red out. Because the F2 will nose over easily even at speed, even though the flop is not as extreme, since its tendency is to go nose down. You find yourself in a unending redout which never gives you a chance to recover. This has happened to me twice this campaign. Both times were in a high bounce situation, without any sudden movements...just trying to roll down on top of the ea.

[beazil]

Wanted to chime in here too DOC so you could hear some of my experience.

First of all, thanks for taking the time to look at inputs and making changes. It is appreciated very much.

The E models behave wonderfully. There is definately more room to maneuver within it's flight envelope, and I'm very happy to report that the old "bouncy nose" is very much reduced. It's a very satisfying bird to fly.

The F series seems to fly very differently - at least the F2. Please understand that while I do test offline, I find it difficult to give real combat feedback unless really in that situation, so my F4 experience will be left out until I experience it in the live server.

The F2 has changed very dramatically. Very small maneuvers can induce wild flopping. The best way I can describe it's behaviour is if one was to lift the old F2, and give it max tail heavy trim. While the nose does not lift as it would normally (as one would expect with tail heavy trim), the flight behavour reminds me very much of this setup. Almost like the whole center of gravity changed dramatically.

I realize you didn't change anything other than what you said you've changed. I'm sorry to report back to you that the change was not entirely positive - as I believe you stated that you thought we'd be thrilled with it. I want to be - especially because I truly love what's different about the E1/E4.

Is it possible that with the (slight) difference in airframe between the E and F series that some new instability was added with the input change? I'm not trying to be a pain in the *** - I just wanted to share my experience. Others have posted similar experiences in the hanger. The 109's used to share similar flight characteristics. The E and F series differences are VERY pronounced now. Remember how the machines tried to kill the humans in Maximum Overdrive? Think like that - only with planes instead of trucks.

Edited December 21, 2010 by beazil

[dabar0n]

Forgot to post gutted's thread with his video. Sorry

http://forums.battlegroundeurope.com/showthread.php?t=349441

[gutted]

Guys, take it to the training server and test it out. There's no way of knowing how much or how hard the enemy hit you. I intend to do just that before i try to make any posts about it.

But yeah, i too have experienced some wacky stuff after hits to the wing. Im interested to see just how much/hard someone needs to hit me to replicate what i saw last time it happened to me. It may have just been him pounding the crap out of me, and me only hearing a minor plink.

Edited December 21, 2010 by gutted

[beazil]

I'll see if you are on later Gutted, as I'm more than willing to play guinea pig. Time for me will be a bit of a bugger tonight tho - it's the misuss's birthday.

[Raus]

I'll see if you are on later Gutted' date=' as I'm more than willing to play guinea pig. Time for me will be a bit of a bugger tonight tho - it's the misuss's birthday.[/quote']

She will understand that helping fix the 109 is more important.

[dabar0n]

She will understand that helping fix the 109 is more important.

Yes...nothing says birthday of her dreams like putting one of your old x52's in her hand, telling her to hold the plane perfectly straight, then shooting her. You can use her reaction as scientific data for analysis. Remember to make sure she writes down her observations before she storms out of the room.

[fearny]

i had EA on my 6 ... he hits me 1x ... and the 109 instantly starts to flop... and it felt like the "explosion blast" made my 109 flop

i was flying "almost" straight ... no real curve... no climb/descend ... nothing

i know what i means to loose your tail... specially when you fly a STUKA. that happens alot in that plane. i checked my 6 after that hit and when i started to flop ... tail was still there... then 2 secs later i black/red out... until i crash into ground

He hit you 1 time? Just once? You can't possibly know this Bronco, just because you only heard one audible "plink" doesn't mean you only got hit once.

Do as the other guys in here are doing and get out there and test it, properly, on the Training server, then take those findings and email DOC with the results, if something is wrong then they will sort it out as soon as they possibly can.

[DOC]

Ticket #4993

Found something, been there a long time (since creation) think it might solve the problem. It's going into closed beta when we get the next closed beta build up and running.

[Raus]

That's good news. Hope it helps.

[dabar0n]

Sweet DOC...want to share? Interested in what you found.

[beazil]

I'm willing to help test in the closed beta - if you think it might help. I am willing to play target, drone or aggressor in an opposing plane as well. That goes for RATS and players alike. I'm open to pm's as well - If I can help I will.

Cheers.

[DOC]

Yes, the problem will be solved now. Very confident.

PS: if you fight slow and close to stall, they still depart. They're supposed to. They will be nicer up to that point however, and you have to get really slow to reach it. Generally speaking, as all pilots differ in ability ... down to 250km/h they will be more easily handled. Below that you're entering flaps territory, and around 200 km/h you're still able to turn it with some authority. Get down to below 170km/h and you better be real sharp, and quick to react to the buffet but VERY controlled at the same time. I was able to hold a turn at 140 or so, but that's super danger point if you're at low altitude. Rudder and aileron with pitch up at the elevator can still cause wobble problems at the extremes but they can also be used without departing as long as you don't overdo it.

At higher speeds these planes are still the monsters they should be, very good handling in turns and rolls. They will never be super slow speed handlers and they never were in real life compared to some others, but unless you pull into an accelerated stall (which the real ones could do easily and it was a real world pilot manual caution) they do signal that you are asking too much as speed drops in a hard turn.

Still testing. Default joystick scaling and curves. Will patch as the schedule allows. Expect this in v1.33 release.

PS: let me also clarify something that gets lost in the confusion of what people mean, when they say "it's borked". In 99% of what most players do in these aircraft, the "new" 109s, no matter which one you pick, are all better at handling pilot joystick input than they were previously. For some really ace types, who learned to use the bad traits of previous versions that most other players found would just kill them, and/or had developed custom joystick configurations, the new ones "aren't as good" but that is misleading to some degree. Once they relearn what they put so much time into developing for the previous versions, into these newer versions, they will probably find them better like everyone else does.

Some are reluctant to do this. Well we have to move on in spite of any possible stubborness that might be out there. It's obvious in a side by side comparison of both versions that pilots are now pushing closer to and beyond the edge of controlled flight in 109s more than they were doing in the past. Most don't realize this because they just fly as far to the edge as the plane allows. If that "edge" moved they would be unaware of it to a very large degree, even though they have started using more that area of the flight envelope with the same confidence that they used to have when not that far into it previously. I see some evidence of this in the number of turning 109s looping and dogfighting harder than did this previously.

-but-

It's important to also understand that what we found just 2 days ago, that also remains as the last thing to refine, was an error that had been in these aircraft for years. It's not the result of the recent changes, although it might make those changes seem more severe in some aspects of flight at the point of or near the point of departure. The recent changes may have exascerbated those improvements in the edge cases of flight even if the other 98% of the time the planes are improved. So they still fly 98% of their available flight envelope handling better than the previous versions did with respect to the previous overcontrol issues. The newer versions might be "worse" in 2% of their flight envelope and that was unintentional. It depends on how you fly them, and how far into the edge case you tend to go and stay during a fight. This is probably what those who don't like the "new" versions as much are concerned with, although they don't actually know that this is the most likely cause of their concerns.

However, with that ages old error we just found being corrected now; the issues in that remaining 2% of the flight envelope should be of an acceptable standard in terns of buffet warning and control, thus making the planes as good as we can expect them to be .... and this will be work that is included in the release of the v1.33 game client.

I am sure ythat after this occurs ... the "omg the E models are so nice now" accolade will transpose almost immediately onto the F2 and F4, and to some extent the G6, although the G6 is always going to be a fat pig compared to an F4, it is a good deal heavier and has a higher wing loading; and the CoG is not as well balanced. It's greater HP does not overcome those attributes even though it heklps it retain and even gain speed over the

F4. Real LW pilots complained of the same thing when transitioning to the G6. They all wanted their F4's back; or at the lest spoke of it as the "better plane to fly around in" which translates into ease of handling and balance of it's flight characteristics.

The F-2 and F-4 will not however, merely become higher performing E-4's, as they have different engine profiless, wings and mass, not to mention an altered fuselage profile and aerodynamic drag co-efficient. However, in terms of "what the pilot feels" they will seem like higher performing E-4's that are slightly less nimble, which is to be expected really. I am sure they will again be the LW pilots favorites, except for theose lovable rogues and weirdo's who love the sheer nimbleness of the E models. Hey, I still fly an E-1 even when F-4s are available.

I also love the G-6 even though it is a fat pig. Super models are so over-rated. Merry Xmas everyone.

S!

[DOC]

Don't forget that if you're a pilot type and you want to have the best possible things fall out of testing ... to help with the testing. The v1.33 dev.cycle will include the last work on the 109s, so you should be familiarizing yourself with that line of work through flying in the v1.33 client. It is expected that following the release of v1.33 as a live campaign (regular game) client that the work on the aircraft that was hoped to be completed when v1.32 was released, will be complete. So it pays to be involved. I just wrapped up the last of the fine tuning today (it's Xmas Eve so yes, I *AM* Santa Claus!) and we'll be pulling that work into the v1.33 client when the rest of the team get back after Xmas.

So have some milk and cookies ready.

PS: milk and cookies = rum and naked women heh heh heh heh