S35 Impossible to detrack

[fxmmauser]

For more than 5 years playing BGE I always encounter problems fighting allied armor especially in the ability to detrack them with First Tiers.

Every Axis armor can be detrack by a Panhard or Daimler up to the tiger and even the tiger can be detrack my the 25mm AA alied gun.

Now the same doesn't apply to Axis Armor a few days ago I hit a S35 frontally on his track this was between 40-100m with a 38(T) Gun I made at least 3 hit I had both the visual effect that the hit happen on the track but nothing happen, In the same week I did the same with a 37mm ATG no effect also.

This has happen to me since I began playing and it's not only the S35 but something is wrong with detrack system especially on this one.

Correct me if I'm wrong but even a 20mm could detrack frontally an expose track at short range it's only a matter of how many hits it takes since the kinetic energy produce by each hit on the same surface would begin decaying the metal right?

Edited June 16, 2011 by fxmmauser

[dertod]

the chuchill mk7 can't detrak both tracks,only one track .

[matamor]

Good points

[GOPHUR]

Correct me if I'm wrong but even a 20mm could detrack frontally an expose track at short range it's only a matter of how many hits it takes since the kinetic energy produce by each hit on the same surface would begin decaying the metal right?

Each component has a threshold which must be met before damage starts accumulating. 20mm just won't do the job on treads or barrels.

The French 25mm AA won't detract a Tiger from any testing I can do (I'm doing it now point blank).

The 38t can track a S35 from the front as I've just tested out but it is a really low velocity round and it probably needs to be very close. I can test that out to determine the exact distance if needed.

The 37mm ATG is a very low velocity weapon. That means that it also has low kinetic energy, especially at range. It can indeed track the S35 (I just did) but again probably at limited range.

Bottom line is that there is a lot of complication that goes into a sim. That complication is really a combination of differences between things and fog of war that can equal unclear expectations.

We try and help where we can by making things like all tracks are the same but the core of the game is that all weapons are different (and armor, and top speeds, and acceleration, and wing loading, and rate of fire...).

In conclusion it looks like we have expected functionality from the system but clearly we aren't doing enough to set the expectations of players so they see what they think they should see. And that can be hard in a sim.

For more than 5 years playing BGE I always encounter problems fighting allied armor especially in the ability to detrack them with First Tiers.

Another way of answering this would be that tracks in all tiers for all weapons are the same but the early smaller weapons have a lot less power so it is harder for them to track tanks.

Edited June 20, 2011 by GOPHUR

[kamel]

Every Axis armor can be detrack by a Panhard or Daimler up to the tiger and even the tiger can be detrack my the 25mm AA alied gun.

Panhard can't detrack any tank Full stop. Not even a Panzer 2.

The Daimler, which mounts a 2 pounder, can. The 2 pounder packs significantly more punch than any German 37mm guns. It fires a much heavier round at higher velocity. It is in fact, about as powerful as the German short 50mm, that the Panzer 3h mount.

Now the same doesn't apply to Axis Armor a few days ago I hit a S35 frontally on his track this was between 40-100m with a 38(T) Gun I made at least 3 hit I had both the visual effect that the hit happen on the track but nothing happen' date=' In the same week I did the same with a 37mm ATG no effect also.[/quote']

A 2 pounder usually takes a couple of hits at typical ranges to remove a track [unless you are at point blank]. Given that it is getting on for twice as powerful as the German 37mm.... guess what that means for how many hits you need to get to knock off the same track with said german 37mm?

Correct me if I'm wrong but even a 20mm could detrack frontally an expose track at short range it's only a matter of how many hits it takes since the kinetic energy produce by each hit on the same surface would begin decaying the metal right?

20mm, such as that used by Panzer 2, 232, and the flak 30, used to be able to track tanks.

Unfortunately, in terms of energy, said 20mm rounds were almost identical to those mounted on many Allied aircraft. Which not only fired faster, but often had multiple guns. [A typical strafing run could put a dozen or more rounds on target in a a second or less]

Result?

Any noob in a Spitfire could rip the tracks off any tank in game with a half arsed strafing run.

The 20mm guns on German fighters on the other hand... are somewhat less powerful, and could not reciprocate.

After much screaming about the unfairness of it all by certain Grey tankers... the damage threshold of tracks [and guns] was raised to a level where 20mm guns could no longer damage them.

More screaming and knashing of teeth had the threshold raised again later to rule out 25mm guns... and to give 'heavy' tanks even tougher tracks.

The upshot is that the smallest gun capable of taking out tracks, is the 37mm on the H39, and that only at close range. The R35's 37mm, all 25mm, 20mm and lesser calibers have no effect on tracks.

The german 37mm is only slightly more powerful than the French H39's 37mm... and is really only 'just' capable of tracking tanks at all... and then, it will typically take multiple hits. Even more if there is significant range involved.

Should you wish to petition CRS to reduce tracking levels once again... a lot of Hurricane and spitfire pilots are right behind you in support.

Edited June 21, 2011 by kamel

[fxmmauser]

Each component has a threshold which must be met before damage starts accumulating. 20mm just won't do the job on treads or barrels.

The French 25mm AA won't detract a Tiger from any testing I can do (I'm doing it now point blank).

( for what I can vaguely remember the shooting wasn't done frontally but kinda of a diagonal hit, there was once a video on youtube that showed how to detrack a tiger with the small allied AA I tried to search but had no luck this was quite a while ago probably 3 years ago)

The 38t can track a S35 from the front as I've just tested out but it is a really low velocity round and it probably needs to be very close. I can test that out to determine the exact distance if needed.

(*Isn't the 38(t) gun one of the best 37mm guns in the game? that's what is written on the wiki* plus how better the pan/daimler gun is better than the 38T, it tracks a tiger easily for the looks and I can't believe is twice as good has the 38T)

The 37mm ATG is a very low velocity weapon. That means that it also has low kinetic energy, especially at range. It can indeed track the S35 (I just did) but again probably at limited range.

What you mean by probably? what range are you talking about 1meters 5 meters?

We try and help where we can by making things like all tracks are the same but the core of the game is that all weapons are different (and armor, and top speeds, and acceleration, and wing loading, and rate of fire...).

What I can conclude from what I have seen is that the area of the track that is model in the game in some tanks must not be well model since from some directions detracking happens but from other spots that are still the track and that in real life would probably detrack the tank won't do nothing here.

Edited June 21, 2011 by fxmmauser

[oboelcke]

I could track many a tank with the German 20mm before the threshold limit raise. Please lower it again.

[kamel]

( for what I can vaguely remember the shooting wasn't done frontally but kinda of a diagonal hit' date=' there was once a video on youtube that showed how to detrack a tiger with the small allied AA I tried to search but had no luck this was quite a while ago probably 3 years ago)[/quote']

Thesholds went up since then. Twice.

(*Isn't the 38(t) gun one of the best 37mm guns in the game? that's what is written on the wiki* plus how better the pan/daimler gun is better than the 38T' date=' it tracks a tiger easily for the looks and I can't believe is twice as good has the 38T)[/b']

The 38t 37mm is the best GERMAN 37mm in game. The 2 pounder [mounted on A13, Daimler, Crusader, and Matilda] fires a much heavier round at higher velocity.

pak36 - 685g projectile fired at 745m/s velocity.

2 Pounder - 1080g projectile fired at 792m/s velocity

Muzzle energy = 1/2 mass x velocity squared.

pak36 = 190,000 joules

2 Pounder = 338,000 joules

It's like comparing a .22 rimfire with a .222 centerfire. similar caliber sure... but one is significantly better.

What I can conclude from what I have seen is that the area of the track that is model in the game in some tanks must not be well model since from some directions detracking happens but from other spots that are still the track and that in real life would probably detrack the tank won't do nothing here.

Detracking in game mostly concerns the track wheels rather than the track istself. aim for the sprockets or return rollers.

[kamel]

I could track many a tank with the German 20mm before the threshold limit raise. Please lower it again.

Yes please.

hispano 20mm = flak/kwk30 20mm. [not the same gun, or ammo even, but almost identical energy output]

Hurricane/spitfire/p39/p38 will be able to rip the tracks off anything that moves again....

I remember the howls of protest well.

[oboelcke]

I used to love flying 10 ft off the ground behind a column of tanks in meh piggy and track them. It was hilarious watching them spin around in circles 2k from the target.

Ahh good times.

Chars were the easiest. So much track to aim at.

Edited June 21, 2011 by oboelcke

[Hinfoos]

mmmh... tracking by strafing

[vonkurt]

Thesholds went up since then. Twice.

The 38t 37mm is the best GERMAN 37mm in game. The 2 pounder [mounted on A13, Daimler, Crusader, and Matilda] fires a much heavier round at higher velocity.

pak36 - 685g projectile fired at 745m/s velocity.

2 Pounder - 1080g projectile fired at 792m/s velocity

Muzzle energy = 1/2 mass x velocity squared.

pak36 = 190,000 joules

2 Pounder = 338,000 joules

It's like comparing a .22 rimfire with a .222 centerfire. similar caliber sure... but one is significantly better.

Detracking in game mostly concerns the track wheels rather than the track istself. aim for the sprockets or return rollers.

Erhm

He is talking about the 38t A7 gun which is different to the pak36 calculations you have made the 2 pounder still comes out on top so its:

38t A7 gun - 850g projectile fired at 741m/s velocity

38t A7 gun = 233360 joules

Cheers

Vonkurt

[bronco69]

there is a bug ... its called "axis"

[fxmmauser]

S35 Completely Impossible to detrack using 38t shooting frontally and with s35 not moving at 35m on online campaing please fix this its not realistic at all really not!!

Edited July 1, 2011 by fxmmauser

[GOPHUR]

Sure it can. I just did it.