#5569 - plane gunsight off after mouselook and despawn

[jokeri]

I have been getting sometimes bug that my guns are shooting to the right side of from the center of sight. It's not happening all the time just randomly. It's very annoying when you realize it not before you enter fight. I cannot say does it happen in othre planes I haven't done any testing since it happes randomly.

Is this already known issue?

My DXdiag:

------------------

System Information

------------------

Time of this report: 7/12/2011, 14:47:47

Machine name: TOOSA-PC

Operating System: Windows 7 Home Premium 64-bit (6.1, Build 7601) Service Pack 1 (7601.win7sp1_gdr.110408-1631)

Language: Finnish (Regional Setting: Finnish)

System Manufacturer: .

System Model: .

BIOS: Phoenix - AwardBIOS v6.00PG

Processor: Intel® Core2 Duo CPU E6750 @ 2.66GHz (2 CPUs), ~3.2GHz

Memory: 4096MB RAM

Available OS Memory: 4094MB RAM

Page File: 1248MB used, 6938MB available

Windows Dir: C:\Windows

DirectX Version: DirectX 11

DX Setup Parameters: Not found

User DPI Setting: Using System DPI

System DPI Setting: 96 DPI (100 percent)

DWM DPI Scaling: Disabled

DxDiag Version: 6.01.7601.17514 32bit Unicode

[Hinfoos]

happend to me before a bunch of times.. different planes

took this one a long time ago

can see the rounds landing to the left of the sight between the first and second ring

[beazil]

Pretty common in our squad to run into this. I've had it happen twice, and I hear about another squaddie getting this probably every second day. I don't think it's limited to one plane.

[delems]

Is this like aiming and then where your rounds go? I seem to have this problem in the 232, or is it IIC? Don't notice it all the time, but it definitely happens.

I will aim for a window and all the rounds hit the wall to the left, strange.

[jamesi]

I was hoping this was finally the thread about the sight looking like the Tardis centre console...

[Solono]

It affects all planes, although it seems it affects Allied rides more than Axis but it does happen to both. I've been on the training server with people cursing this bug, got it about once every five sorties and a couple unfortunate times, two or three times in a row.

[jokeri]

Is there any ticket for this issue? It's pretty annoying to find out when your fighting, since I don't have habit to test is sight working before I take off.

[DeusWolf]

Never happened to me, weird...

[DOC]

shooting on the ground is not a good testing method, as the recoil will generate reawards travel of the airframe and not perfectly equal to each side at the same time (gun recoil forces are cyclic based on RoF and each individual round leaving each individual barrel in turn, and the reaction of the plane to the ground itself will throw off your sight picture) ... because your head position is affected relative to the gunsight (this is nessesary for a reflective gunsight to work) you don't get a true sight picture representative of what it would be in flight

at the same time, remember that in flight your head is also going to move around relative to the gunsight and a pefectly centered target fix at all times under all conditions of dynamically changing flight forces is not to be expected, and in real life it wasn't either

guns do not, read: cannot ... be aligned on one sortie and not on the next, as this would require the data to change between sorties

you need to examine the other factors that are present, that might be contributing to your conclusion ... before deciding you have arrived at the correct one, as ignoring them will only decieve you

[jokeri]

shooting on the ground is not a good testing method, as the recoil will generate reawards travel of the airframe and not perfectly equal to each side at the same time (gun recoil forces are cyclic based on RoF and each individual round leaving each individual barrel in turn, and the reaction of the plane to the ground itself will throw off your sight picture) ... because your head position is affected relative to the gunsight (this is nessesary for a reflective gunsight to work) you don't get a true sight picture representative of what it would be in flight

at the same time, remember that in flight your head is also going to move around relative to the gunsight and a pefectly centered target fix at all times under all conditions of dynamically changing flight forces is not to be expected, and in real life it wasn't either

guns do not, read: cannot ... be aligned on one sortie and not on the next, as this would require the data to change between sorties

you need to examine the other factors that are present, that might be contributing to your conclusion ... before deciding you have arrived at the correct one, as ignoring them will only decieve you

No it's not anything you said. I can clearly indentify when it's shooting off center or through the center. I have gotten to test it while on ground and it shoot (for me) right off the center ~1cm. I'll try to catch on fraps and you will see the difference. I will shoot it while looking zoomed (no head movement) on ground (no plane movement).

I have played this from 2004 I think I can see when something like this happens. I can also say that anything like this haven't happened to me before now or I haven't seen it before. No offense.

[DOC]

I have to take into account that we didn't change anything to do with the D.520, it's data or it's artwork, that would create this effect. Data and code controlling "aiming" doesn't change between sorties. So I have to make sure you are REALLY sure of what you report before I stop work on something else we are building to investigate something that shouldn't have changed. Yeah, I know it sucks to prioritize but you know there are like 2 of us who can investigate this and then we gotta stop someone elses work as well during the hunt. Part of this is forcing you to have exhausted all other possibilities (and you have to admit there are a number of those) before we ticket investigative work, because it stops development work.

I'd prefer not to have to do that but I don't have a choice. I can just not answer you if that is preferred. Sorry to be blunt. That's also nessesary if the work is to get done. It's not personal. Keep it logical and all will be well.

Don't make it an argument because I'm not arguing with you I'm just excercising due diligence. That's my job.

[jokeri]

I have to take into account that we didn't change anything to do with the D.520, it's data or it's artwork, that would create this effect. So I have to make sure you are REALLY sure of what you report before I stop work on something else we are building to investigate something that shouldn't have changed. Yeah, I know it sucks to prioritize but you know there are like 2 of us who can investigate this and then we gotta stop someone elses work as well during the hunt. Part of this is forcing you to have exhausted all other possibilities (and you have to admit there are a number of those) before we ticket investigative work, because it stops development work.

I'd prefer not to have to do that but I don't have a choice. I can just not answer you if that is preferred. Sorry to be blunt. That's also nessesary if the work is to get done. It's not personal. Keep it logical and all will be well.

You can see above that other pilots are having similar problems in axis planes also. My squaddie says he has gotten it with p38 and 109 also. I try to get video proof for this so you can see it.

[DOC]

Have tested this, and so far am not seeing it. Needing more evidence is not denial, don't assume it to be. I can place an aircraft at a fixed distance from a target with no flight forces on it at all and obeserve bullet patterns short of, at and beyond convergance. So far, nothing has revealed itself as being "wrong" so that means we must eliminate what it isn't, or at least make sure you know what it might be that is an expected variable, and I don't know if you know what these are or not, so I have to make sure.

Explaining the entirety of what is at play is one way to remove some of the doubts.

Sorry to be blunt again, but you know we receive 4 reports that turn out to be perceptions for every 1 we get that turns out to be fact, right ? Work with me here, we're NOT the enemy. Players believe the perception based reports as strongly as the factual ones even when they are untrue, and we at CRS have to devine the differance. New stuff we could build you doesn't get built because we are chasing ghosts. We thus have to try not chase the 4 bad reports but just the 1 good one. What I am doing is forcing evidence to help seperate the two possibilities. It's not personal, it would be a good idea if you don't take it to be personal.

It's simply a process we need to follow or our tiny team gets nothing done. If more evidence helps to define the issue then that helps get it fixed faster. I'm not out to prove you wrong but I am out to remove the doubts. If I don't do that first then nothing gets done about it.

[Solono]

Having run into this God forsaken bug more than I'd ever like to, I can tell you which planes it affects definitely and even what it may be:

Allied planes:

All of them for certain except the Dewo, I never had it happen in one because I rarely fly one and cannot say for certain. H81 and H87 seem especially prone.

Axis Planes:

Rare but all of them except 110 and Stuka, never seen them for the same reason as the Dewo.

What I think may be the problem:

Convergence setting. Setting convergence may be what is causing it, this may be why I very rarely saw it happen in a 109 since I never bothered with convergence settings there but with Allied planes I always changed it and experienced it there an order of magnitude more.

[DOC]

we audited convergance settings to get rid of anomalies, hopefully this eradicated problems experienced "in the past" and didn't introduce new ones

so far, I haven't found any but everyone has different issues because they have hundreds of different hardware/software combinations, I can only look at the data or, with coders, the code ... I cannot look at specific issues if they are hardware/software related and I don't have that identical combination

so you see, it's still a search just to establish where the problem lies, in addition to what exactly it might be

rest assured, if testing here revealed the issue I wouldn't be talking to you about what it might be, I'd be fixing it

[Solono]

we audited convergance settings to get rid of anomalies' date=' hopefully this eradicated problems experienced "in the past" and didn't introduce new ones[/quote']

All I can say on that end is I never had the problem until the convergence rework, afterward, as I noted above have observed it occurring in rides where I normally adjusted convergence. It could very well be coincidence, I accept that, it should also be noted I know the JG51 guys well enough to say they play with their convergences, especially with the G6s and beazil has reported JG51 has suffered with it frequently.

[DOC]

hmmm ... well at least that's a start, we can look at the changes ... perhaps they are setting convergance outside the true range which means it needs to be clamped again

[jubax]

I finally managed to replicate this few times and captured a video of the bug. However this one is with 109f4 not with d520. I think it can happen with all the planes.

6yCvn-buwHs

I managed to replicate the bug with several different planes in offline mode with these steps.

1. spawn a plane (109f4, p38 in my tests)

2. fire few rounds

3. toggle mouselook

4. look back and up from left side and despawn

5. respawn back in and guns are not shooting where crosshair points

So by the looks of it it may have nothing to do with convergence but it messes up the camera position or something.

[jokeri]

1. spawn a plane (109f4, p38 in my tests)

2. fire few rounds

3. toggle mouselook

4. look back and up from left side and despawn

5. respawn back in and guns are not shooting where crosshair points

So by the looks of it it may have nothing to do with convergence but it messes up the camera position or something.

I could replicate this with 109f4 and fw190. Also noticed you can change the side it shoots by looking instead right side when you despawn.

[GOPHUR]

Bam. Reproducible. Will ticket.

[DOC]

so it's mouselook changing your eyeline and the state not being cleared, that's great news

it's not the planes at all, and thanks for locking down what you were doing, that's the only way it gets discovered ... cool result really and much appreciated