Fix the Glass Cannon of the Tiger

[Fallsjgr]

Tiger's cannon is way too easy to disable. Every Allied player I hear when playing allied and facing a Tiger is "just shoot his cannon".

Ridiculous.

-Fallsjager

[GOPHUR]

They're all the same so it would seem odd to change them given there is about zero historical data on this type of thing. I wonder how it is that our gunners are so much better than real life? I think maybe a better solution would be to check the accuracy of our weapons. Either that or just make it so you can't take out the gun.

Now that your rage post has cooled off which of those options do you prefer?

[doch]

Do not make the gun invulnerable. It will never stop if you do, next will be a demand for the tracks to be invulnerable, then the tiger shopuld be immune frontally to the 57mm, then ....

Somehow, this weak tiger with its glass gun that goes down just looking at ot,is still able to do this map after map:

Tiger (DE) Crusader II (UK) 31 0 31.00

Tiger (DE) Crusader III (UK) 48 8 6.00

Tiger (DE) Churchill 7 (UK) 43 15 2.87

Tiger (DE) Churchill 3 (UK) 57 17 3.35

Tiger (DE) Stuart (FR) 52 0 52.00

Tiger (DE) Sherman (FR) 76 14 5.43

Tiger (DE) Sherman 76 (FR) 87 42 2.07

394 96 4.10

Not bad for a tank that allegedly is fighting with its mashineguns only.

[monsjoex]

Gophur you had a gallery of screenshots of the tanks with the internal armour showing with colors and stuff.

Do you have a link to that?

Because i could swear i have seen a picture of the tiger with its turret yellow (lower armour) and shermans etc having a red turret ( more armour)

[dotsie]

The tiger has a glass gun, no doubt. But if it didnt it would be unstoppable in overpop situations. While its sh*t to be degunned by something that shouldnt (a stu at 1k hehe) balance and playerbase enjoyment demands it. My only gripe is numbers.

[chiapet]

i prefer the fix the glass canon option.

take a look at the damage model gophur, now look and tell us if the of the gun is part of that damage model. does hitting the mantle cause the gun to be disabled. i belive( and can be very wrong here0 that unlike the other tank guns, the mantle of the tiger gun is part of the barrel and thus gets disable when hit.

i cant imagine any other reason for such a weak barrel when its being disabled from the FRONT.

Mind you this is not a side shot issue but a FRONT shot issue that seems to be unique to the tiger.

[chiapet]

Do not make the gun invulnerable. It will never stop if you do, next will be a demand for the tracks to be invulnerable, then the tiger shopuld be immune frontally to the 57mm, then ....

Somehow, this weak tiger with its glass gun that goes down just looking at ot,is still able to do this map after map:

Tiger (DE) Crusader II (UK) 31 0 31.00

Tiger (DE) Crusader III (UK) 48 8 6.00

Tiger (DE) Churchill 7 (UK) 43 15 2.87

Tiger (DE) Churchill 3 (UK) 57 17 3.35

Tiger (DE) Stuart (FR) 52 0 52.00

Tiger (DE) Sherman (FR) 76 14 5.43

Tiger (DE) Sherman 76 (FR) 87 42 2.07

394 96 4.10

Not bad for a tank that allegedly is fighting with its mashineguns only.

and yet its worse then matty in tier 0... but thats ok right?

[chiapet]

They're all the same so it would seem odd to change them given there is about zero historical data on this type of thing. I wonder how it is that our gunners are so much better than real life? I think maybe a better solution would be to check the accuracy of our weapons. Either that or just make it so you can't take out the gun.

Now that your rage post has cooled off which of those options do you prefer?

and why would you make all guns the same gophur? a 37 mm will get demolished compared to a 88 mm gun.

the 88 probably has the single thickest armor value of all guns in game, but youare saying its damage threshhold is similar to a 2 pounder or 37mm gun?

[chiapet]

The tiger has a glass gun' date=' no doubt. But if it didnt it would be unstoppable in overpop situations. While its sh*t to be degunned by something that shouldnt (a stu at 1k hehe) balance and playerbase enjoyment demands it. My only gripe is numbers.[/quote']

And tough if its more powerful. thats what the vehicle was, and were supposed to be playing with historically accurate equipment. it may not be historical numbers, nor historical timeframes for introduction but dang dude we should at least have historical equipment.

today i had the top popped on my tiger by a m10 about 1k away from the front. we got enough sillyness going on as it is.

[smythes]

I'll set you a challenge.

See how easy it is to knock out the Gun of a Stuart at 1000 ms with the gun on a Tiger.

Let me know how you do.

[fiambre]

I always wonder if every gun (artillery and tanks including lmgs) should have a much less accuracy :-)

I mean... its not uncommon seeing any kind of tank shoting down other tanks first shot from very large distances (700+)

Im a complete ignorant of the real world on such things but... was it so easy to aim and destroy real tanks?

In other hand... im sure that Europe never saw such kind of big distances of empty terrain so often... but well.. seeing the tanks and anti tanks shooting each other for longer periods while the infantery can at least have a bit of quietness could be good

But well im asking taking the chance that the thread gave me :-)

S!

[kamel]

They're all the same so it would seem odd to change them given there is about zero historical data on this type of thing. I wonder how it is that our gunners are so much better than real life? I think maybe a better solution would be to check the accuracy of our weapons. Either that or just make it so you can't take out the gun.

Now that your rage post has cooled off which of those options do you prefer?

They're not the same.

There's quite a bit of variety.

Tiger's 88 is immune to a 2 pounder over all but its muzzle brake. Most other tank guns aren't [75mm etc]

88 Flak can be disabled by 25mm AP.

i prefer the fix the glass canon option.

take a look at the damage model gophur, now look and tell us if the of the gun is part of that damage model. does hitting the mantle cause the gun to be disabled. i belive( and can be very wrong here0 that unlike the other tank guns, the mantle of the tiger gun is part of the barrel and thus gets disable when hit.

Hitting the mantlet of the itger does not disable the gun. You're thinking of the stuart... where hitting the mantlet DOES disable the gun.... assuming the whole turret doesn't go boom.

i cant imagine any other reason for such a weak barrel when its being disabled from the FRONT.

Mind you this is not a side shot issue but a FRONT shot issue that seems to be unique to the tiger.

It's called a whopping big muzzle brake on the end. Same as the Stug3g and pz4g.

The muzzle brake gives a significantly larger area to hit and more importantly, a flatter area to hit... since I think most guns damage models taper to a point, wheras guns with muzzle breaks have a knob on the end.

and before you ask... YES. Damaging the muzzle brake significantly would KO the cannon on a Tiger... if not immediately, then on the next shot it made. One recorded instance of a Tiger firing its cannon after having the muzzle brake shot away immediately jammed the gun at full recoil, burst the recoil compensator, and killed the loader.

The number 1 reason why tiger get degunned more than one would think reasonable, is that said vehcile is crewed by a player who will sit there and take hit after hit... instead of retreating.

The number 2 reason is that every opponent is shooting for the barrel... and typically have about a thousand times more practice than any RL tank crew.

[chiapet]

So why is the muzzle break so flat? i guessing the damage model is a simple flat plain, but looking at it in reality it has alot of angles, and my bet is that anything halfway larger then the bore size would be deflected, while anything the bore size and half the brake would funnel a round and damage the gun.

have you done damage testing on the gun then?

[kamel]

So why is the muzzle break so flat? i guessing the damage model is a simple flat plain, but looking at it in reality it has alot of angles, and my bet is that anything halfway larger then the bore size would be deflected, while anything the bore size and half the brake would funnel a round and damage the gun.

have you done damage testing on the gun then?

Not for a long time. It's tougher than most other tank guns over most of its barrel though. Trouble is, by the time the tiger is out, its facing weapons with KE more than five times that of early war stuff... so the whole threshold thing goes out the window. A 57mm or 75/76/88mm at any range is going to cause enough energy imput to wreck a cannon barrel with a decent hit.

In RL, anything bigger than 40mm hitting the muzzle brake is going to cause damage. It'll either take a chunk out of the side and unbalance it, or funnel a round inside... which would not be good.

It just wasn't common to take a hit there.

People weren't as skilled as our players are.

They weren't suicidal enough to sit in front of a tiger and try to hit the gun given any choice at all.

Tiger crews didn't see the intensity of action that they do here.

Tiger crews that did sit in an exposed spot and absorb fire tended to either die, or lose important parts ,like tracks, guns, etc. Especially against the Russians.

[raven4]

I'll set you a challenge.

See how easy it is to knock out the Gun of a Stuart at 1000 ms with the gun on a Tiger.

Let me know how you do.

I'm guessing the Stuart goes boom....test invalid.

[DOC]

Some facts before closing this:

The PzKw.VIe Tiger is the most powerful tank in the game, and it's stats reflect this over every other tank in the game. It's average is twice that of it's nearest rival. (rounded)

The Tigers cannon (main gun) has the highest damage threshold of any tank in the game. It is in this instance in a class of it's own, as no other tank has as high a threshold as the Tiger does.

Yes it's gun can be disabled. It's gun however is not more easily disabled than any other tank in the game, in fact the reverse is true. What players perceive in general is that because the Tiger can take a pounding that would kill most other tanks in the game (exception the Churchill Mk.VII with it's thicker armour than the Tiger) the Tiger player experiences surviving a gun critical hit with an alive gunner that can no longer shoot ... where other tanker players generally don't notice the gun critical hit on their tank because they are a flaming bonfire with no turret.

No tank should be invulnerable.