Axis SMG is unrealistic portrait since last modification

[fxmmauser]

On 1.33 or the patch before it the mp 40 was made more inaccurate to a state it cant no longer compete with any allied smg head to head or win against a good rifleman in close combat.

I have been playing allied this last campaign in order to see if it was true what I was experiencing on the axis side and unfortunately it is.

In a number of sorties I had axis soldiers shooting at me and missing all the shots:

On allied side:

- One time an axis smg sees me first around 10m from me, shoots me first full auto misses goes prone continues shooting misses then I shot him with rifle and his ded he probably shot half or + of the magazine.

- Another time axis smg sees me 40-60m away shoots first around 15th rounds one of them hits my leg he was also prone.

- There were a number more of instances even on single auto close range that I escape alive despite not being the first to shoot.

- I never made a 4+ kill sortie after the 2 remodels of the axis smg I was only able to do it on the first years that it was launch in europe. But I think on the second day of playing allies I made a 9 kills sortie with smg I never had really used before or had any experience with it.

On axis side:

- The most vivid experience that I remember was an allied passing in front of me 10m away I stopped align perfectly my sights I fire full auto controllable, none of the bullets hit where I was aiming they went outside the sights completely I crouched reduce the rate of fire nothing he turned and killed with a smg at same distance. * I was not wounded nor full drained of stamina *Reported has a bug and got a reply from a GM saying that they were aware of that and multiple players reported at the same time or on the same day has me*

- Another one was when I faced head to head a UK SMG I was with the 98k mauser rifle we were both prone over 70m I heard full auto fire and saw lots of bullets in-front of me he could also be firing very fast single fire he hit me first on the first 1-2 secs I killed him but at that distance he should have not hit me at that rate of fire and so early on the combat.

Uk SMG

- It's the most accurate smg on the game, is the fastest shooting, very controllable full auto, single, burst, firing while moving with our without iron sights is also incredible accurate and round is deadly.

French Smg (seems to be the most balanced smg)

- It's the second most accurate gun the shots seems to be organize in small groups for example in a 3-4 round burst 2-3 rounds hit the target while on the tommy 3 burst will hit once but will always hit (Prone and green bar full), seem to have the most accurate burst fire , full auto good but bad at medium to long ranges(+40m) , single action is good and it has a weak round.

Axis Smg

It's currently bad in everything compare to the others the full auto while moving is certainly the worst even at close range with or without iron sights. Prone single shots is the only thing that can kill at medium to short ranges but suffers from ability to kill the enemy due to round.

As we see on this image posted on a previous topic about the same thing it seems to confirm what I have experience in combat.

The Red Dots axis smg seems to avoid the center and shots are all scatter around the target.

The Blue dots french smg are mostly cluster all together in one place.

The Green dots allied smg are all contain nicely on the center and on the area close to the center is by fire the most accurate on this test.

Historically

The MP40 was lighter than the Thompson the rate of fire was lower and the caliber was slightly weaker the mp40 even had a 200m sight! It's was the most or one of the most controllable full autos and accurate SMG on WW2.

I currently no longer use the Axis smg even on short ranges I can't get anything often beyond 1-2 kills, while with rifle I can climb up to 15 plus kills, I even use only rifle on paratrooper now too

And right after this modification was made I immediately felt the difference.

Best Solution

I advice to set all smgs with the same dispersion of the Thompson smg but retaining their muzzle velocity and ballistics proprieties.

And only changing them to diferent values when a real test is documented, filmed and posted on the website comparing them side by side on the same weather conductions and with a group of people including at least someone with military training everyone would have to shoot the gun with a round equal to those that were used. ( This would end blame for CRS for the time being and focus it's used on skill of the player)

I just want to conclude this part that changing the way a gun handles ingame without real world data supporting looks bad for a great company like yourselves that aim to recreate WW2 in a realistic but fun way to play. There should be a place on the website dedicated to how realistic things are ingame like the very very nice job about the 1.33 uniforms.

Holding the MP 40 not reflecting realistically it's real use on WW2

The other topic I want to mention that has always causing me to dislike the MP 40 portrait on this game, it's the fact that the soldier holds the gun before the magazine on the handhold of the weapon, german soldiers were trained to hold the gun with the supporting hand on handhold or magazine housing being the last one chosen because it was more comfortable to shoot and gave a easier aim on full auto.

Has you can see on this following youtube vid or picture the soldiers and trainers seem to favor the magazine housing to hold the gun.

On this following picture if the MP 40 was hold this way it could jam the weapon.

On every other WW2 games the soldier is always holding the MP 40 on the magazine housing even on realistic games like red orchestra and brother in arms and most combat footage of the MP 40 the soldier is using the magazine housing as a grip.

Ingame the soldier holding the MP 40 looks so unnatural seems like the gun is going to lean/tumble right or left if he shoots it.

Do please change the way the soldier is holding the MP 40 it seems just awful, what surprises me most is that the Thompson UK smg has a grip :X I can't say I'm familiar with tommies having a grip with a 30 round magazine I know the grip was used when the drum was present but I doubt this tommy guns with grips were in such wide use has seen ingame (correct me if I'm wrong).

Edited September 3, 2011 by fxmmauser

[sssnake]

What I've noticed using MP40 assaulting a bldg, i aimed on an allied player, not hosed from the hip, at 5m, gave him a full magazine at full stamina-MISSED completely from a crouch-he Turned, and shot me once with rifle, and got a head shot in the Side of the head when i was facing him-i snuck up on him, had time to see him, crouch and shoot from 5m. Honestly i can see no way lag could have stopped me with that much time to adjust and properly aim at that range. I didn't have objects between us (Cleared the stairs and the stair rails by 1m to the side and he was facing away from me).

Similar things have happened often since the new start here in Sept. I hope there's not a serious bug going.

[fearny]

shot me once with rifle' date=' and got a head shot in the Side of the head when i was facing him.[/quote']

How on earth do you know he hit you in the head?

[GOPHUR]

There have been no changes to this weapon since August 2007 when some erroneous comments were removed from the file. Last change before that is 2005. All dispersion is handled in the weapon file.

Accuracy may be influenced by a number of other features like weapon rise (specific to weapon) or hand sway (class based). Most of these are class based.

I can't see anything from the picture that truly represents a disparity that would be game affecting.

[fxmmauser]

There have been no changes to this weapon since August 2007 when some erroneous comments were removed from the file. Last change before that is 2005. All dispersion is handled in the weapon file.

Accuracy may be influenced by a number of other features like weapon rise (specific to weapon) or hand sway (class based). Most of these are class based.

I can't see anything from the picture that truly represents a disparity that would be game affecting.

??There was a read me or patch note that this weapon was change slightly not sure if it was in the same patch has the lmgs were but was around that time.

Edited September 16, 2011 by fxmmauser

[DOC]

not a bug

[GOPHUR]

??There was a read me or patch note that this weapon was change slightly not sure if it was in the same patch has the lmgs were but was around that time.

You've got the read me. Do a search.

[narg]

What I've noticed using MP40 assaulting a bldg, i aimed on an allied player, not hosed from the hip, at 5m, gave him a full magazine at full stamina-MISSED completely from a crouch-he Turned, and shot me once with rifle, and got a head shot in the Side of the head when i was facing him-i snuck up on him, had time to see him, crouch and shoot from 5m. Honestly i can see no way lag could have stopped me with that much time to adjust and properly aim at that range. I didn't have objects between us (Cleared the stairs and the stair rails by 1m to the side and he was facing away from me).

Similar things have happened often since the new start here in Sept. I hope there's not a serious bug going.

Happens all the time. I'm worse with the smg than i am with any rifle in the game. Better to use the rifle.

[chiapet]

its piss poor dispersion when moving slowly, and it shouldnt be that bad.

[fxmmauser]

You've got the read me. Do a search.

I do? I do have a readme in rtf but I didn't find the adjustment on lmg dispersion and nothing about smg either.

I'm sorry from not having the same resources or the inside info CRS has and not the necessary free time.

I can tell you this I play this game and played it the past alot I used both Smg from all factions and I can say for certain that the MP 40 has something wrong with it, it could be while moving & shooting on iron sights/wounded/Standing/full auto or tired. The tommy is really accurate in all aspects, if CRS isn't modelling correctly according to real life it isn't balancing it either.

Do a new ingame poll for axis players asking if they would like to have all smg with the same dispersion but keeping the ballistics and RoF.

This would be the easier course of action and don't eliminate another opportunity to blame the game I would be the first to say to a player that all smg are handle the same.

But I seriously await a real life research posted on website, shooting real live ammo with the same weapons model here and then modelling them correctly in the game.

What about changing the way the german soldiers holds the smg on its magazine housing ? I have been vomiting seeing the way he holds since the first day I log on this game.

Edited September 19, 2011 by fxmmauser

[sssnake]

How on earth do you know he hit you in the head?

As i lay there, after being shot, i saw the hole in the side of my helmet. Usually that's a pretty clear indicator of being headshot, bro.

Not something i'd like to see in person-lol.

But it raised some questions about glitching and firing thru objects, even though the floors in most WW2 buildings were wood and Could be fired thru.......

If you're facing someone though and get hit in the Side of the head from that person, i think anyone would wonder, not take it on faith like Obummer.

Edited September 20, 2011 by arcangel14

[delems]

I have long suspected something funky with SMG firing while moving. Not always, but often enough, if I'm moving with ei right in front of me and I blast away, nothing! Sometimes I get a damage but often nothing, yet I'm dead (and this is upstairs usually so almost for sure getting my shot off first).

Happens mostly with Axis and French SMG.

I've always chocked it up to lag and the player not being where I think I am shooting. But I don't know, sometimes it just seems there is no way you could have missed and yet you do.

[fxmmauser]

I have long suspected something funky with SMG firing while moving. Not always, but often enough, if I'm moving with ei right in front of me and I blast away, nothing! Sometimes I get a damage but often nothing, yet I'm dead (and this is upstairs usually so almost for sure getting my shot off first).

Happens mostly with Axis and French SMG.

I've always chocked it up to lag and the player not being where I think I am shooting. But I don't know, sometimes it just seems there is no way you could have missed and yet you do.

This was exactly what happen to me, I remember 2 times clearly, it was just impossible that my SMG had missed that enemy after that, I became frustated with Axis SMG and now only use rifle.

I also saw a number of people complaining already about the same thing on the game, there is probably something that CRS forgot to model/code when shooting MP40.

[GOPHUR]

Dispersion is dramatically increased when moving.

This modifier is the same for all the SMGs. I'm not sating they are right I'm just saying I don't see it and nothing has changed in the data. The thompson and mp40 for instance have the exact same dispersion on the base weapon but the animation dispersion (the effects of shooting it) look like the thompson has a bit more muzzle rise and the mp40 has a 20% increase in minimum dispersion. Minimum dispersion though is only a small part of the formula as they both share an unaimed dispersion number.

[fxmmauser]

Dispersion is dramatically increased when moving.

This modifier is the same for all the SMGs. I'm not sating they are right I'm just saying I don't see it and nothing has changed in the data. The thompson and mp40 for instance have the exact same dispersion on the base weapon but the animation dispersion (the effects of shooting it) look like the thompson has a bit more muzzle rise and the mp40 has a 20% increase in minimum dispersion. Minimum dispersion though is only a small part of the formula as they both share an unaimed dispersion number.

Two questions GOPHUR

1- Are there different formulas when you are partially tired shooting while moving/walking on Iron sights for MP 40 and Tommy?

When you get an opportunity to play the game LIVE go axis try smg then try the tommy gun there is a substantial difference between the way it handles and hits the target.

It could also be that the animation dispersion/rise on the mp40 is so disconnected from the shooting that my brain is giving instructions to aim to a different location when seeing the hits plus the animation giving different feedback. But I wouldn't know (this does not happen on allied SMGs)

2- The fact that the gun barrel is not facing the place/direction where the bullet(s) is going to hit is really bad to this game. Those the game engine allows shooting 1stperson without iron sights pointing at the real direction ingame?

[GOPHUR]

1) Should be no difference other than the inherent differences being multiplied when you are tired.

2) The muzzle rise not being straight up and down is a real PIA. Not a month ago were we *****ing about it in house. The inverse kinematics are a real bear on that thing for some reason.

[sssnake]

I just noticed-"Republic of Texas". Thank you-i was Born in El Paso, and wondered why people look funny at me. Maybe we should go Back to being that, and let the bummer gov't go away quietly.