Bug Found with all Bombs

[luvd520]

Replicated to 700m ATL

3zeua8QJFys

[elegance]

Just a consequence of the new 700m render limit for infantry. Ghey? Yes. Weird? Yes. Bug? Probably not.

[ghost]

ooh, so inf can hit planes, but planes cant hit inf if the range is over 700m.

that seems fair.

[HuskerGI]

But if that was an allied tank 500m away it would have been a kill. Funny isnt it?

[murhis]

It's the same with everything if they are farther than at 700 m. This "feature" makes level bombing completely useless against infantry.

[fxmmauser]

LoL needs to be fixed!

That was how bombers were made to be used and it's called realism a core aspect of this game.

Thx for sharing this clip

[smythes]

Old?

[oidin]

700m?

I thought it was about 1000m...

When did they change that?

[Tigger6]

It's not a bug, it's a performance-related game feature. Since my RL specialization is in efficient algorithms and data structures, I blame inefficient storage of enemies and friendlies in the engine.

[conesq]

I bomb 700m or below and have no problems killing ei

250kg bombs on Heavy allied tanks and shermans are a different matter.....

Edited September 26, 2011 by conesq

[murhis]

700m?

I thought it was about 1000m...

When did they change that?

been for a while.

700 m for infantry

2700 m for vehicles and guns

[Hinfoos]

why was i nerfed just because some others have crap computers?

noobs Bias

[GOPHUR]

It's not a bug' date=' it's a performance-related game feature. Since my RL specialization is in efficient algorithms and data structures, I blame inefficient storage of enemies and friendlies in the engine.[/quote']

There are a lot of factors. Render performance is one as is keeping track. Truth is infantry engagement ranges beyond 700m just aren't that significant.

To the earlier poster, level bombing is not generally considered to be an anti-infantry tactic. Not if you're looking for "realism". Realistically infantry had a lot more C&C against low altitude, not to mention high altitude enemies. Same for tanks. So reducing the vis range for infantry to 700m is as much about that as anything.

Now the argument that the OP is really looking for here is not that the bomber can't see infantry at 5km or whatever. It's that the infantry sees the bomb but takes no damage. And that's been that way forever. The issue is that bombs are not server tracked objects like grenades.

Technically they need a fire server (not server tracked) so that they trajectories and more importantly the impact point is distributed to all players correctly so that damage can be server adjudicated.

Thanks for bringing this up though. I haven't talked to the host coder about this for a while. With the new host changes this might be a good time to look at that again.

[luvd520]

Thank you gophur for the response.

To clarify my argument. The way I feel, I should be able to climb to 6k, and drop my bombs on town and get all kills I rightfully hit, regardless if they are a rifleman or a PzVIE Tiger. If I hit it, I want the credit. I challenge you to do some bomb runs on a town with a 111, and get anything more than 1 or 2 kills on the random AAA piece out there.

Add in the fact that flying the 111 in any tier is generally suicide, because most players who do fly them are lone wolf's or supporting their ground guys. Then you are bringing them down into both flak and fighter range. When the end result is to have a real air war above 2k anyways, and save the flak for the dive bombing Db7's and Stukas and inevitable circle jerking from fighters.

I look forward to this aspect of the game being fixed very much, I just thought it was ironic that you could use the minimum bombsight settings, and because of coding not get kills you rightfully earned, when there are so few kills for bombers anyways.

Last comment, on the realism note. Yes strategic bombers (if you can call the 111 that) or bombers used as strategic bombers don't normally go after tactical targets such as infantry. You need to remember, this is a game. And in the real world, every town did not have an armybase, with a certain number of spawnable depots that get camped. And there is technically only 1 dive bomber in the game, the stuka. So we are forced to use what we have in a simulation (game). Which means it is only fair that ALL bombs, regardless of altitude get credit for what they would rightfully have killed in the game. Obviously the higher you are the more skill it is going to take, so its not a bad choice IMHO.

[fxmmauser]

I never meant strategic bombing, more like carpet bombing.

Carpet bombing was probably one of the most issue missions for the he111, carpet bombing was more directed to ground defenses and forces than industry.

As far as I know the concept of blitzkrieg didn't involve or focus on strategic bombing and he111 was consider more of a medium & tactical bomber rather than a strategic bomber.

[SNIPER62]

fix...

yes plz

[shdwnoob]

He111 level bombing at 500 feet can carpet bomb a town and should get all kills.

2000 lb bombs leave only dead and stunned humans for a large circle, and a full load on a small town should leave almost total silence for about 5 minutes. Survivors will have a take 5 minutes to get their brain-jelly cleared of fog and overcome amazement at surviving a near miss.

DB-7s should be somewhat less lethal; but similar results should apply.

Cool for the bombers - bad for gameplay where all players believe that they would survive an attack due to skill (versus reality of bad luck/bad day taking lives in real war).

[GOPHUR]

Thank you gophur for the response.

To clarify my argument. The way I feel, I should be able to climb to 6k, and drop my bombs on town and get all kills I rightfully hit, regardless if they are a rifleman or a PzVIE Tiger.

I agree with this on basic principles. I also believe that killing infantry and for that matter tanks should not be the primary task of a level bomber.

But until I have the later I can't well stand on the soapbox of the former.

On the pother hand if when you have STO bombs infantry should have massively more ways to protect themselves from them. These weapons are anti-materiel and every grunt had ways of protecting himself.

I also think they should have massively improved AA capabilities but I won't go down that road until I have either AI AA gunners or the new "command mode" method of a fire director to show you.

If I hit it, I want the credit. I challenge you to do some bomb runs on a town with a 111, and get anything more than 1 or 2 kills on the random AAA piece out there.

I can't I don't have the patience for it and I completely suck at it.

Last comment, on the realism note. Yes strategic bombers (if you can call the 111 that) or bombers used as strategic bombers don't normally go after tactical targets such as infantry. You need to remember, this is a game. And in the real world, every town did not have an armybase, with a certain number of spawnable depots that get camped. And there is technically only 1 dive bomber in the game, the stuka. So we are forced to use what we have in a simulation (game). Which means it is only fair that ALL bombs, regardless of altitude get credit for what they would rightfully have killed in the game. Obviously the higher you are the more skill it is going to take, so its not a bad choice IMHO.

I am keenfully aware of it my friend. If I could fix it today it would be fixed.

[GOPHUR]

He111 level bombing at 500 feet can carpet bomb a town and should get all kills.

2000 lb bombs leave only dead and stunned humans for a large circle, and a full load on a small town should leave almost total silence for about 5 minutes. Survivors will have a take 5 minutes to get their brain-jelly cleared of fog and overcome amazement at surviving a near miss.

DB-7s should be somewhat less lethal; but similar results should apply.

Cool for the bombers - bad for gameplay where all players believe that they would survive an attack due to skill (versus reality of bad luck/bad day taking lives in real war).

Well said.

[lure]

To remove the bomber issue while not changing anything for ground unit performance I would like the following change was given some consideration:

Today the "vis" range between units is calculated as the true 3D range, that is there is a sphere around the player in witch the enemy must be in order to be killable.

I would like the range calculation to be changed into a 2D calculation based only on the lat/long distance. Think of it as a cylinder around the player, a cylinder with no limit in altitude. This would open up for bombers again while having minimum impact on performance for ground units since the map for ground units pretty much is 2D anyway when it comes to distance between units.

Pic:

[DOC]

that's actually how it works for bombs RIGHT NOW IN GAME, they do employ a cylinder render criteria, not a sphere

the problem is, by the time the bombs strike the ground, if at the higher altitudes you seek, the aircraft has left that circle and cannot (by code) be connected with the bombs anymore, because they are outside the render limitations of the existing technology, at low altitudes this doesn't happen because the plane has not traveled far enough before the bombs make impact

if we make the circle big enough for high altitude bombing to work by this method, we lose all the performance that a smaller circle offers us and the players

the solution is a fire server where the bombs are STO's

we arrived at that conclusion because we put a lot of thought derived from extensive experience at this, into that thought process

[Hinfoos]

if you would add this, would DD's be added to this also?

give navy some more options..

[lure]

that's actually how it works for bombs RIGHT NOW IN GAME, they do employ a cylinder render criteria, not a sphere

the problem is, by the time the bombs strike the ground, if at the higher altitudes you seek, the aircraft has left that circle and cannot (by code) be connected with the bombs anymore, because they are outside the render limitations of the existing technology, at low altitudes this doesn't happen because the plane has not traveled far enough before the bombs make impact

if we make the circle big enough for high altitude bombing to work by this method, we lose all the performance that a smaller circle offers us and the players

the solution is a fire server where the bombs are STO's

we arrived at that conclusion because we put a lot of thought derived from extensive experience at this, into that thought process

We already had this discussion a couple of years ago and I'm sorry to say but I'm pretty sure you're wrong here:

A aircraft flying at, let say 3km alt WILL NOT travel outside the 2,5km Tank/AA/atg radius at bomb impact. I (among serveral others) tested this in great detail on training server with multiple accounts last time we had this discussion. Just the "travel outside range" argument alone is VERY easy to test as you don't even have to hit a target. Do I need to post pictures and diagrams?

I think it USED to be a cylinder but it was changed some years back.

Late edit: Ok now I will have to start offline mode and show a test-case with the 111. It's easier to test with as it is slow flying.

Edited October 3, 2011 by lure

[lure]

Levelbombing with a he111 at 1000m @ 320 kph IAS will make the bomb land almost directly under you, giver or take 200-300m or so. You're not anywhere near todays 700meter (or whaterver it is now) limit. Flying at, lets say 1100m should easily rank up lots of infantry kills with 111 if "cylinder style" range calculation is used.

When we recorded the video in the OP the vis range for infantry was 1km. That he111 in the video is CLEARLY nowhere NEAR 1km away from the target as the bombs hit.

I never got a answer last time I got this explanation so I ask again:

If we're supposed to have "cylinder" style range calculations and testing clearly shows it does not work this way, will it be recognized as a bug then?

Edited October 3, 2011 by lure

[lure]

Original thread when we tested this very same issue in detail back in 2008: http://forums.battlegroundeurope.com/showthread.php?t=199440