Allied AP (plane) rounds

[bronco69]

Allied AP round can:

• kill 232 and most other axis T0 + T1 tanks by blowing them up or killing their engine ... even III H
  
• kill main guns of axis DDs by strafing them
  
• go through axis planes like knifes through butter
  

but axis HE rounds fail to kill/blow up allied tanks. only a few tanks that can be strafed. and then mainly because you tracked them

i did a testing on training server with 190 strafing allied DDs. nothing.

Spitfire was able to knock out all main guns on axis DD

a few rounds into the tail of an allied plane should blow off the tail. but it doesnt. 20mm HE rounds seem to me too weak

[GOPHUR]

If you prefer AP rounds over APHE rounds you're not flying the right planes. There's a reason they're different. It's called history.

I'm sure the Allies would be happy to trade you plane on plane performance for the ability to take the main guns out on a destroyer.

Please remove the tin hat before reporting for duty.

[Hinfoos]

If you prefer AP rounds over APHE rounds you're not flying the right planes. There's a reason they're different. It's called history.

I'm sure the Allies would be happy to trade you plane on plane performance for the ability to take the main guns out on a destroyer.

Please remove the tin hat before reporting for duty.

i prefer ap.. so i can se where i aim when strafing

those nuclear clouds covering the ground is not fine to me.

[Tigger6]

So bronco, can you show us a video of you blowing up a axis pz3 or pz4 chassis tank with commander down and drivers visor closed with a allied fighter plane?

Edit: Don't forget to count how many you waste in the process.

Edited October 20, 2011 by Tigger6

[bronco69]

just tested on training server

Spit IX vs. axis Destroyer

all main guns disabled on Destroyer with Spit cannon rounds

[bronco69]

FW190 vs. Brit Destroyer

unable to disable main guns

[Tigger6]

That's quite interesting actually, where do you shoot to disable the main guns? I was under the impression that the crewmembers cannot be killed, so then it had to be the guns themselves that were disabled? Could be the DD guns weren't audited with all others as for degunning by air cannons.

I remember one time bersi got a kill on a DD with a 190 without actually shooting at any on purpose.

[bronco69]

Bf109 G6 vs. Brit Destroyer

unable to disable main guns

[OLDZEKE]

On a DD vrs 20mm you gotta hit the gun breach.

Have'nt checked in awhile but flak30 HE at close range used to break all the DDguns.

[bronco69]

Hawk87 vs. axis Destroyer

unable to disable main guns

[bronco69]

P38 vs. axis Destroyer

unable to disable main guns

[Tigger6]

On a DD vrs 20mm you gotta hit the gun breach.

Have'nt checked in awhile but flak30 HE at close range used to break all the DDguns.

So where would you be shooting from? Does the turret not have armour on the rear? If not, it could be that the hispano is the only gun that delivers joules over the threshold. If this was so, it could actually be that it's the HE and not the AP round- one can test this by shooting at it with the Bell (all AP).

[Tigger6]

P38 vs. axis Destroyer

unable to disable main guns

But the P38 has the same gun the spitfires have.

[OLDZEKE]

So where would you be shooting from? Does the turret not have armour on the rear? If not' date=' it could be that the hispano is the only gun that delivers joules over the threshold. If this was so, it could actually be that it's the HE and not the AP round- one can test this by shooting at it with the Bell (all AP).[/quote']

No armor, open rear on gun turrents. Been awhile back me and TO tested against fmb 20mm and flak30 20mm. TO used to manage to fully degun several unspecting DDs per map by getting in beside them then breaking their guns with the fmb aaguns. The deck gun on a fmb can break the mains headon as well if you can manage a round through the little window on the front of the turrent.

Edited October 21, 2011 by OldZeke

[bronco69]

i strafed the DD guns only frontal. so i aimed for their barrels... not from behind (crew)

i tried that a few weeks ago with 190 vs brit destroyer. didnt work too

[DOC]

first thing that is required for testers is a knowledge of what you are testing, while thereis a lot of "game" within the game, bullet and round ballistics are completely derived from SIMULATION criteria not hitpoint "gaming" criteria

1. British fighter aircraft with 20mm cannons have more AP in their loadouts (more than double) as a percentage than German fighters do, this was how things were (additionally German flyers preferred HE/MINE as superior ammunition for downing fighters)

2. P-38s do have an Hispano 20mm cannon but no AP in their belts (French tended to load AP only when on ground attack missions against convoys) ... the Spitfires have lots of AP in their belts

3. German fighters in general have not much AP in their belts (British fighters have 2 in 3 and German 1 in 5)

4. Each bullet or round has performance and consequence potential that is unique to that round and not shared by any other round on the basis that it is, for example a "British figheter plane cannon round" or a "German fighter plane round" ... their performance is based on criteria derived from the extensive work we do to simulate how they behave historically.

Hispano 20mm cannon rounds for example, are superior ballistically and in kinetic damage to Mauser 20mm cannon rounds. If you remove the explosive element (as you would when considering an AP round impact consequence) the Hispano has an even greater advantage than it's Mauser equivalent. This is just a ballistic fact. If you wish to maintain a simulation in event impact consequences then this fact will be reflected in those circumstances where this differance is a signifigant contributor.

impacts against a target like a destroyer using an fighter aircraft in flight ... are woefully inaccurate for reporting results if you want those results to be diffinitive

what specific part of the destoyer did your rounds impact ? More to the point, how many parts ? Dispersion is going to be all over the place as you fly at your target. Do you know what rounds specifically hit what parts of the target ? AP ? HE ? Tracer ? Where ? How many of each type ? Were the contributing events of one test exactly replicated as events in subsequent tests ? What were the variations ?

How many times to did you repeat the test to get an average of all accounts ? 100 ? (this is ideally the minimum) 50? 10 ? once ?

I understand that you may not like what you are seeing but that is (respectfully) not the same as it being incorrect to be seeing it. This kind of reporting is not useful to us because it has no controls, is all variables (and those variables are undefined) and is not based on any methodology that would be used to test something that is based on specific event consequences arising out of a large number of different variables.

I would not expect even two identical aircraft flown by the same person to achieve the same result in two seperate attacks on two identical targets. It's possible, but not likely. Understanding why is important if you want to test it out.

If you ever form an opinion "this isn't fair" and then go out and try to find test results to prove you were cheated, you will probably succeed in finding what you seek, but it will be poor testing and not what we use here to evaluate if something is working or not. Proper testing is done from a perspective of having no opinion at all until a really thorough series of test results is obtained from which to start forming an opinion.

[OLDZEKE]

109f4 vrs brit DD, broke both front main guns.

109f2 vrs brit DD, finaly managed to break 1 front main but you gotta get crash close to do it.

109g6 vrs brit DD, broke both front mains with 30mm.

Could not get a gun to break using the 110C4.

I turned the guns 90* off center so as to get best shot on the rear of the turrents.

This is all distance related, lower the round power the closer you need to be to surpass breakage threshold. So, with hispanos haveing the better/higher power per round they are more likely to get breakage on DD guns due to being able to have the break point power at longer range over axis 20mm.

[bronco69]

109f4 vrs brit DD, broke both front main guns.

109f2 vrs brit DD, finaly managed to break 1 front main but you gotta get crash close to do it.

109g6 vrs brit DD, broke both front mains with 30mm.

Could not get a gun to break using the 110C4.

I turned the guns 90* off center so as to get best shot on the rear of the turrents.

This is all distance related, lower the round power the closer you need to be to surpass breakage threshold. So, with hispanos haveing the better/higher power per round they are more likely to get breakage on DD guns due to being able to have the break point power at longer range over axis 20mm.

so you strafed the guns from behind ?

my testing was all frontal onto guns... aiming onto barrel area

[OLDZEKE]

so you strafed the guns from behind ?

my testing was all frontal onto guns... aiming onto barrel area

To the best of my knowledge the guns barrels on the DDs do not have a DM.

The break points are the gun breach. But that's only from my testing and playing with and against them over the years.

And on each main gun there is a little window beside the gun barrel. It's a opening that will allow a round through the armor from headon to hit the gun breach.

[Thrance]

How fast to the mains really move? If you're able to kill from the rear why does it really matter if you can get behind the gun faster than they can turn to face you.

[rwkeen]

To the best of my knowledge the guns barrels on the DDs do not have a DM.

The break points are the gun breach. But that's only from my testing and playing with and against them over the years.

And on each main gun there is a little window beside the gun barrel. It's a opening that will allow a round through the armor from headon to hit the gun breach.

Unless they have changed the DD damage model in the last few years, which I don't believe they have, then what OldZeke said is correct.

[DOC]

this has been determined to not be a bug but a differance in how some things are modeled in direct comparison because of it being a simulation not a red vs blue fabrication