Dispersion way off on American Thompson

[frogdeth]

I understand that recoil is an issue but that is no reason why the first shot out of the muzzle is flying 30 degrees or more off-center at ranges under 20m. The rest of the shots are no better. In fact, the dispersion is so bad that it's actually funny. I could conceivably hit aircraft while aiming at the ground.

This is particularly interesting when compared to the British Thompson in the live-game. It also has massive recoil but it's dispersion is low, meaning it's shots start on center but rapidly pull straight up. This new beta American Thompson just sprays in completely random directions, up, down, left, right - it's a roll of this dice with this thing. That can't be right, can it?

[fxmmauser]

The mp40 has the same problem if you compare them both, dispersion in this game looks very unrealistic.

Please set all smgs to shoot the same has the UK smg and only change it if there is any real comparable study done about them.

[DOC]

Some controlled testing between the live and beta versions with the results of direct and identical comparison would be useful, as we didn't make any deliberate change to any of the SMGs. As far as we are concerned they should be exactly the same in beta as they are in the live game, so we didn't test them to see what is different about them. We don't generally test what we don't change. We're really busy testing the hundreds of things we did change.

If you had produced clear results of a controlled test showing this huge change however ... we'd definately have gone "wtf?" and jumped into the code to find it, no matter what else we were doing at the time.

LATE EDIT:

just tested in latest beta build. Not seeing it. Both the American and British Thompsons are the same. Dispersion not as you describe.

[GOPHUR]

Yup.

Same ammo, dispersion, animation and weapon data. What you're likely seeing here is the randomizer kicking in and not having balanced that against enough time on the range with both.

[Tigger6]

I spent literally hours testing SMGs in live and beta, because there is a large number of reports concerning SMG accuracy, in particular the MP40 being significantly inferior to other SMGs.

I tested them at 50 and 100 meters, usually average of 100 shots at either target or clones. (Line up 20 clones on the testing range and shoot at them from 100m, one bullet per clone and count how many you kill)

My results are that single shot, the accuracy is virtually identical. Single shot accuracy is Thompson < MP40 <= MAS38, burst fire Thompson < MP40 = MAS38. Lethality seems to be MAS38 < MP40 < Thompson (not sure about this, hard to do controlled testing). But the differences are overall miniscule.

It is true that sometimes the dispersion is way off- you hit the target at 100m with 4 rounds of 5 let's say, but every 20th round goes so much off it hits the next target. This is not correlated with apparent recoil and it thus looks quite strange.

[DOC]

the point however, of the testing forums and reporting in this forum is ... is to identify what is different/changed/broken in direct comparison to the previous LIVE already in release version so that we can use those reports to get the not live still being changed and tested and changed again version ready for release

this is called "replication of current functionality" in terms of the dev. process: because part of beta testing is to ensure that things which weren't changed work as they did before, to ensure that something that was worked on elsewhere in the code didn't change something that wasn't supposed to have changed

if we start getting reports that "something is wrong" or "obviously changed" (or similar) and we spend time to check it didn't change, or why it did, etc., when in fact what the report was saying was "I don't like it" you can see how this will waste valuable time checking something that looked like a report that it was broken between versions when in fact it is exactly the same

please save the "I don't like it" when it hasn't changed between live and beta, to the regular forums and keep our only testing forum focussed on validating what changed in testing and needs to be tested more because it is different than it used to be, that's where our energies have to go in testing or we can never reach release

hope you understand why we need to make these kind of distinctions because we really are under enormous pressure to ge a ton of stuff done, but we only have so many eyes to scan it all with, where "so many" = not very many at all

[GOPHUR]

"It is true that sometimes the dispersion is way off- you hit the target at 100m with 4 rounds of 5 let's say, but every 20th round goes so much off it hits the next target. This is not correlated with apparent recoil and it thus looks quite strange."

Roger that. There is a randomizer that will throw added dispersion at rounds. On SMGs it does kick the rounds out. It is a multiplier so it will definatley show what you describe. This is essentially coded to make up for real world action that is missing in an FPS which at it's base is a rail shooter.

I'd also add that 100m is stretching it for effective rang on a weapon like this. And by stretching it I mean ridiculous. Yeah I know there are web sites out there that will tell you an mp40 has an effective range of 200m. 2 football fields. 600 feet. No way.

[DOC]

I've shot a Thompson and at 25 yards, unless you are well versed in controlling the dispersion, it can be quite alarming how much there is. I'd say it was effective to 50 yards if you were very good with it (and in game everyone is I guess an expert) but bursts had to be kept short and very controlled.

100 yards ? Yeah it can kill of course but accuracy isn't going to be great at all. Single fire it could be described as an extremely poor rifle but we don't have select fire so you're stuck doing 2 and 3 round bursts at best.

Once that bolt starts slamming back, well you're about done accuracy wise over anything longer than 25 yards.

The other 2 SMGs are worse rifles than the Thompson because they have shorter barrels and less weight.

Most of what players think is escessive is while the gun is NOT AIMED and given how much and how wide is the variety of results a lot of shooters will get "from the hip" in real life with these guns, I don't think it's unaccepatable at all. In real life most shooters would not manage the accuracy the average player can with the guns in question IN THE GAME.

In AIMED stance in game, all the SMGs are very good at 25-50 yards. In reality maybe too good, but that's again an arguable statement and will probably be argued until the end of time.

If you can accept the "throws a shot off every so many when unaimed" that we have simply because otherwise it's a rail gun (in the computer game environment) then you'll probably find the rest of the time they are all easy to score killing hits with, and I would hasten to add, easier than in real life.

That is however, just my opinion but I will add I'm not interested in anything but what I think is reasonable; and that covers all the SMGs not this side or that side. I like realism but I want the game to be fun at the same time, and realism for a lot of people isn't fun at all.

I think that's how all of us here at CRS feel to be totally honest. None of us have any interest in one side over the other. If the whole thing doesn't work for everyone, what's the point of doing this at all ?

[Tigger6]

"It is true that sometimes the dispersion is way off- you hit the target at 100m with 4 rounds of 5 let's say, but every 20th round goes so much off it hits the next target. This is not correlated with apparent recoil and it thus looks quite strange."

Roger that. There is a randomizer that will throw added dispersion at rounds. On SMGs it does kick the rounds out. It is a multiplier so it will definatley show what you describe. This is essentially coded to make up for real world action that is missing in an FPS which at it's base is a rail shooter.

I'd also add that 100m is stretching it for effective rang on a weapon like this. And by stretching it I mean ridiculous. Yeah I know there are web sites out there that will tell you an mp40 has an effective range of 200m. 2 football fields. 600 feet. No way.

Oh, I'm not complaining about it, more explaining that I think it is this that surprises people. I would say that all weapons in game are too accurate, or rather, too easy to shoot. I can hit a standing EI at 300m 3 times out of 4 while standing, try that in real life...

[GOPHUR]

Oh' date=' I'm not complaining about it, more explaining that I think it is this that surprises people. I would say that all weapons in game are too accurate, or rather, too easy to shoot. I can hit a standing EI at 300m 3 times out of 4 while standing, try that in real life...[/quote']

I agree. Our troopers are stone cold sharp shooters. Part of that dispersion helps there. It also helps because our damage model for INF is not forgiving. You get shot you are out of the fight.

I watched Rafter playing some new game the other day and he was in a subway and his gun wouldn't fire. The guy shooting him with an SMG finally got scared and backed off down the hall and hid behind a bench. I think Rafter must have taken 6 pounds of lead. Too funny.

Edited November 1, 2011 by GOPHUR

[stdyhand]

On topic, I noticed some wild shots with the Thompson at close ranges too. I first noticed it when I fired one shot at a target from about 20m and the round hit the dirt two feet left of the target. I had this happen a few times, but it didn't happen on the first round every time so I could not replicate it. Furthermore, the iron sights do appear to be slightly off so that could have caused it as well. It wasn't a major issue to me since I don't usually use the SMG except to spray a room full of EI and aiming isn't usually required.

Off topic, I've always said the game should have more players running around with rifles since they were in fact more accurate and likely to kill at long ranges. However since the SMG is relatively accurate out to 50m most players in game use it. I know it would require work but I would actually like to see all of the smg's equally brought down in accuracy at longer ranges to better entice players to use a rifle instead.

Reducing numbers of SMG's is not going to convince new players to choose a rifle instead. It will take them plainly seeing the smg is no good at longer ranges for them to pick up a rifle instead.