public bug tracker

[saintj]

I have suggested this in the past, but with all the problems we are having now, I think this would be a really good idea:

- Players would know if a problem is being addressed.

- Possible workarounds.

- No more 50 messages on forum saying the same thing.

[expatpom]

I have suggested this in the past, but with all the problems we are having now, I think this would be a really good idea:

- Players would know if a problem is being addressed.

- Possible workarounds.

- No more 50 messages on forum saying the same thing.

Excellent idea , especially at this moment in time with all the issues both on PC and Mac.

Open up the transparency a bit at this difficult time and the playerbase will be sympathetic and the anger level might subside.

[macalex]

"...but with all the problems we are having now ..."

The latest production update says "the game is running smoothly".

[saintj]

... and we all want maca's anger level to go down a bit

Seriously CRS, if you like the idea and the problem is "no man power to do it", I am sure we can arrange something.

Edit: I'm also seeing a lot of disappointment of mac users (squadies) not only because they cant play, but mainly because they are not getting enough feedback. And this can help.

Edited January 5, 2012 by saintj

[DOC]

this is as public as we can make the process

we cannot give you access to our project database, much less the ability to alter it

we can't run and effectively manage a different one in addition either, that is "public" unlike our internal one, which is not public

[fxmmauser]

this is as public as we can make the process

we cannot give you access to our project database, much less the ability to alter it

we can't run and effectively manage a different one in addition either, that is "public" unlike our internal one, which is not public

Can't we get a list of Open Bug Tickets in the testing forums?

This would help reduce multiple posts about one subject or opening topics about a issue that is already reported and trying to be fixed.

This could also encourage players to post more bugs because some might think a bug is already ticketed when it isn't.

It would also save time when CRS staff replies to a post saying that a specific bug is already ticket, providing the community with this knowledge would also increase their ability to provide that informations to other players.

Other testing forum feedback:

-Testing Forum Topic Filters When opening a new topic there would be a selection box with feedback, Request for content, General bug, Terrain bug (since there are so many of them), then when inside the testing forum you could select check-boxes with the previous options and they would work like a filter.

- System Specs Signature every player would have a new short spot for a new signature where he could insert his PC specs this would help alot with posting multiple times the specs when trying to track a bug on the forum, it could be insert on field on account options and the forum would sort the visualization.

- CRS Seen Icon A new Auto-icon when a CRS staff opens/enter or marks as seen a specific topic, this would make players know that the developers have seen that topic and would decrease the need for posting just to move the topic to the top.

Out and ingame testing improvements:

-Auto Crash Report Creation Automatically after each crash create a crash report in a crash folder that won't delete unless the user manually deletes it.

- Send Report Pop Up After each crash and when the player attempts to login opens a pop up with the crash report and textbox to insert comments and more information that is required to fill in order to send the report, if the user clicks on cancel the report is not send and the game launches.

- Report Bug Print Scrn When reporting a bug after pressing enter the game makes a print screen and sends a picture grouped with the bug description.

- Terrain Bug .Report Option Specific option on .report Terrain bug( when a building is floating, or not stick to the terrain, a cp is not visible, tree inside a cp....)

Edited January 6, 2012 by fxmmauser

[expatpom]

Why the secrecy?

Transparency is the key Doc, and seeing a news item posted on the main website that basically said the game is running smoothly sent a lot of folks rightly over the edge.

We are all committed to this concept as you guys are to this game and posting an in-running in play bug report and progress report is not going to lose any more subscribers than what is happening at the moment, Indeed it will probably create the opposite as folks know you guys are aware of the issue and are hard at work.

[company0]

If anything, could we try to create a more detailed in-game bug report tool besides .report? Something that automatically takes a screenshot, reports your location, computer stats, information going in and out, spawn in data etc? Something like an in-game "Bug" tab that would let you respond to any issues, much like with the ticket system.

[jwilly]

a list of Open Bug Tickets (...) would help reduce multiple posts about one subject or opening topics about a issue that is already reported and trying to be fixed.

Back when I helped manage the open forums, my experience was that those players who would make use of this kind of list were already aware of what topics had been posted-about recently, and therefore didn't need the considerable extra work that maintaining a formal list would require.

Because much development work isn't part of the open discussion, it wouldn't work to just extract the internal database to a public list.

-Testing Forum Topic Filters

More effort than the requisite tool-coding and support time would justify. Coded systems like this generally end up being too restrictive. Better to just free-form-describe what you want to communicate, and the time that would be required to code and support the tool can better be used to actually develop the game.

- System Specs Signature

The open forums already provide for a stored sig. Just use it.

- CRS Seen Icon

CRS reviews reports when it's helpful to do so and when time is available.

...would decrease the need for posting just to move the topic to the top.

"Bumping" almost always is dysfunctional in a testing forum. Development prioritization isn't based on who shouts the loudest or bumps most often.

***

There's absolutely an appreciation of everyone's interest in providing more and better information to aid in the development process. It doesn't work, though, to create complex tools for that process that take more resources to build, maintain and use than the benefits they deliver. Of course it wouldn't be up to me to make the call as to where that threshold would be, but CRS personnel have made such responses in the past to prior suggestions along the same lines.

Edited January 6, 2012 by jwilly

[saintj]

this is as public as we can make the process

we cannot give you access to our project database, much less the ability to alter it

we can't run and effectively manage a different one in addition either, that is "public" unlike our internal one, which is not public

I wasn't thinking in make the process more public (that would be good too, but that is another issue). I was thinking more along the line of improving what we have now.

I also understand you concern about resources. Managing 2 bug trackers is not good. Bet lets see what happens now:

1) Player gets an error (in the worst case a blocker, like mac users are having).

2) Player goes to forum and writes a new thread (or post in one if there is one recent enough).

3) Someone in CRS reads all messages, tries to figure out if it is an existing bug or new and reports in internal bug report. (I am guessing here, but I also bet that several rats will read the same messages).

4) Player has no feedback on status of bug (usually the case) and posts a message in forum (if he still cares, otherwise he will simply leave).

5) If the post is angry enough, MM gets up from her chair, goes to dev room and asks what is the status on that error and replies on forum.

I think that having a second bug tracker would help a lot in public relations with your paying customers and it might also save you some work. Less repeated messages to read on forums. Less informal feedback necessary. And usually in this kind of systems, users tend to help a bit by directing fellow players to existing bug reports.

This is just my opinion, of course. You will know best if an investment in this is worth the client satisfaction it might bring.

[fxmmauser]

Back when I helped manage the open forums, my experience was that those players who would make use of this kind of list were already aware of what topics had been posted-about recently, and therefore didn't need the considerable extra work that maintaining a formal list would require.

Because much development work isn't part of the open discussion, it wouldn't work to just extract the internal database to a public list.

The problem with experience players and WW2ol long time supporters is that they lack inexperience experience XD, I mean you don't know what is to start playing this game today and see a wide range of bugs and since there isn't any easy access info about current bugs and because you haven't kept a daily track of new topics in testing forum for 10 years you have no way knowing if a bug is already known.

-Testing Forum Topic Filters

More effort than the requisite tool-coding and support time would justify. Coded systems like this generally end up being too restrictive. Better to just free-form-describe what you want to communicate, and the time that would be required to code and support the tool can better be used to actually develop the game.

This is not hard implementing since it's a optional field, it would also improve tracking bugs in testing forum sometimes requests, bugs, feedback get mixed in this forum, there will be always bugs that are easier to fix they just need to be reported, having a filter to only see this bugs would increase production while actually saving Dev time.

- System Specs Signature

The open forums already provide for a stored sig. Just use it.

(free trials don't have the option for signature when I'm subscriber I won't be spending time on the forums, I don't think for those players that have a personalized signature will be willing to give part of their signature to help CRS track bugs)

- CRS Seen Icon

CRS reviews reports when it's helpful to do so and when time is available.

"Bumping" almost always is dysfunctional in a testing forum. Development prioritization isn't based on who shouts the loudest or bumps most often.

??? I know bumping is dysfunctional thats why I'm requesting a CRS seen icon

There are topics about bug reports that have player discussion and are affecting a wide range of players but there is no reply from any Dev, from a player/user position you don't know if CRS has seen that topic, if they are avoiding, if they trying to replicate .... with this icon players you would at least know CRS staff have seen the topic.

Edited January 6, 2012 by fxmmauser

[DOC]

there's no secrecy

there's just a couple of us here, that's all, and we're seriously busy all the time

[expatpom]

Hey Doc,

We all know that you are seriously busy, hence a public bug tracking tool/page would actually free up some of your wasted time from sifting through the forums responding to duplicated issues and fire fighting.

And the anger level meter could also be turned down a notch or two from us guys as we will always know the status of any bug reported or not.

Edited January 6, 2012 by expatpom

[jwilly]

you don't know if CRS has seen that topic, has read it,

If you've posted about it in the Bugs forum, Gophur and/or Doc will read it when they have a chance to get to the forum. Everything is seen and read.

if they are avoiding,

"Avoiding"? It's the producer's job to prioritize issues, because they can't all be tackled at the same time. Obviously the resources couldn't exist for that, and it wouldn't make technical sense anyway because some issues are technically dependent on other issues or other ongoing work.

CRS doesn't "avoid" issues, if you mean something different from assigning a priority level or determining that something being reported isn't a bug, or is a request for a design change instead of a bug report.

if they trying to replicate

A producer has to be able to replicate to assign an issue to a coder. You must have seen Gophur's posts in which he asks for a step by step replication process. If CRS needs replication info, they ask for it.

Edited January 7, 2012 by jwilly

[fxmmauser]

If you've posted about it in the Bugs forum' date=' Gophur and/or Doc will read it when they have a chance to get to the forum. [u']Everything is seen and read.

"Avoiding"? It's the producer's job to prioritize issues, because they can't all be tackled at the same time. Obviously the resources couldn't exist for that, and it wouldn't make technical sense anyway because some issues are technically dependent on other issues or other ongoing work.

There is no way to know if they seen it, they say there are too busy so its right to assume they can miss some topics, I have seen unanswered/uncommented topics with questions about bugs/problems .

Public Bug/issues tracking is something that is actually common on online games, this will actually be positive for the development of the game and community support.

Can't MM get that info and insert on a sticky topic maybe even locked?

[legear]

there's no secrecy

there's just a couple of us here, that's all, and we're seriously busy all the time

hire more? Some of us pay 17.99 a month, and expect a quality product. you guys do amazing things, just too few of you. I honestly cant believe there are still people playing after the terrible couple of months there has been. i know people were sick, and the holidays, and ect ect.... but this is business, and i pay money for services rendered. Crs has always had terrible customer service, and at times are rude, and belittle the playerbase (which are a bunch of winey B****) too, but come one, Im done paying for you to test and fix your product.

[fxmmauser]

hire more? Some of us pay 17.99 a month' date=' and expect a quality product. you guys do amazing things, just too few of you. I honestly cant believe there are still people playing after the terrible couple of months there has been. i know people were sick, and the holidays, and ect ect.... but this is business, and i pay money for services rendered. Crs has always had terrible customer service, and at times are rude, and belittle the playerbase (which are a bunch of winey B****) too, but come one, Im done paying for you to test and fix your product.[/quote']

True.

If CRS was smart or would like to innovate, they would create a program for volunteers to do 3D modelling for the game there are millions of people online that can program, create 3D model and know how to record and implement new sounds effects.

Many of them would work for free if there was some kind of letter of recommendation from CRS like "The user has shown to be capable of doing (this) under this (time of develpoment) and delivering it, fulling all objectives of the contract... Sign "Dev").

There could also be a form of payment to those volunteers but only if CRS made a profit of X for X months, this way CRS would have no costs of production unless they are making enough profit.

It would also be easier to contract new staff if this program was in place since they would have more experience on working with the game.

[GOPHUR]

True.

If CRS was smart or would like to innovate, they would create a program for volunteers to do 3D modelling for the game there are millions of people online that can program, create 3D model and know how to record and implement new sounds effects.

Many of them would work for free if there was some kind of letter of recommendation from CRS like "The user has shown to be capable of doing (this) under this (time of develpoment) and delivering it, fulling all objectives of the contract... Sign "Dev").

There could also be a form of payment to those volunteers but only if CRS made a profit of X for X months, this way CRS would have no costs of production unless they are making enough profit.

It would also be easier to contract new staff if this program was in place since they would have more experience on working with the game.

If modelling were a bottleneck it might be a good idea. It isn't.

[fxmmauser]

If modelling were a bottleneck it might be a good idea. It isn't.

The game needs badly a remodel:

- All atgs and a good portion of tanks,

- All ships and transport planes

- New textures that are in line with new bushes and trees

- Some houses need to revamp since some windows begin at the knee or even lower for the player so weapons can't deploy

- The game needs more LODs

- More efficient trees and bushes

- The game could also use some more weapons and tanks like the mg42, sten sub and Panther.

All with the min polygon versus max visual quality while staying the most historic has possible, historic research could be given by CRS ideally or standing on the hands of the community.

So GOPHUR you are saying that you can do all of this in one year with no costs while staying the most efficiency as possible and historical ?

I know the main problem is actually programing those models and implementing in the world but having them would decrease the production time globally. Plus there are more stuff the community could do new menus, new loading screens, there should always have an ongoing contest for best pictures and videos with no time table(for marketing & upload in the website)

I say this with no disrespect I fear for WW2OL when it's finally close to have a real success, with that new game coming out that will directly attack this game and having seen open-source projects and modding communities that work for free while producing more than normal companies do.

Everyone knows that the future for keeping a game alive and competitive is on making the community produce more content.

Edited January 10, 2012 by fxmmauser

[fxmmauser]

But back on public bug tracker and open live tickets.

This will only bring the community together, I don't think CRS thinks that hiding the knowledge of bugs away from the community and letting players to have to experience those bugs with no knowledge of them makes CRS look better..

Make yourself closer to the community, CRS has RATs chats, Updates weekly their website, are active on the forums daily, can be seen playing the game, sometimes even makes use of downfall viral videos.. Public bug tracker will only be one step towards a closer and more stable community.

Have you guys forgot the role of the "community" on hammering the damage model bug on atgs?

Don't ask yourselves what you can do for the community

Instead

Ask the community what they can do for you

Sincerely

Fxm

[DOC]

So GOPHUR you are saying that you can do all of this in one year with no costs while staying the most efficiency as possible and historical ?

No he isn't saying that, you are.

[fxmmauser]

No he isn't saying that' date=' you are.[/quote']

Wow, Nice one you got me there, Good Job DOC! you did amazing job on 1.33 hope you keep doing what you did.

I'm sorry I only wanted the best for the game, was trying to see if there was something else the community could do to help this game, like the writer of this topic just wanted to decrease your workload on the forums and make it more efficient.

I'm from Europe we have a saying here "The customer is always right", I sometimes forget USA is another world and there isn't any closer to that over there

[MOTORMOUTH]

Ok this thread has reached it's end.

We do appreciate the offers of help. Please trust us when we say that if we could take advantage of them with the hope of any benefits, we most certainly would. It would be silly to reject offers simply to be stubborn or cagey. There are valid reasons.

If and when we get to a point where community input can be accepted, you'll be among the first to hear about it.