Heres a bug report: Invinceable players, aimbots, and unlimited supply

[mikerahl]

So alot of us have noticed that you upgraded the allied tanks, and changed their hitspots, thats cool, I can live with that.

What I can't live with is unlooading 5 bullets in someones face, them getting up and shooting me afterwards.

I can't live with eis who are shot dead on with an ATR(I even see blood splatter) and keep running like nothing happened.

Or the fact that apparently im able to be shot through solid walls by small arms fire, or the fact that im shot in the face by a RIFLEMAN from about 300m away without even aiming, and me sprinting(this has happened about 10 times already today)

Or unloading entire loads of riflegrenades into apparently invinceable enemy troops.

I can't even BEGIN to go into the fact that the allies seem to have instantly available unlimited amounts of supplies since the start of bloody battles...

If all of these things were occuring once, or occassionally, i would just say it was coincidence, or luck, or latency.

But when these things have been happening repeatedly several nights in a row, I cannot blame lag. Sure, go ahead and say I suck at this game, but karma is gonna bite you in the ass someday for lying to a pagan, cause while im not the BEST player by any means, Im fairly sure its physically impossible to do many of these things without exploiting, aimbotting, or outright cheating.

And I dont play with cheaters.

Edited March 22, 2012 by mikerahl

[scarrow]

Believe me mate its entirely possible. Certainly there are times you die to bugs. I`ve been playing since last july and my k/d sucks. Many many times I die and go wtf but its usually on reflection and checking your stats an oh I see moment.

The vet players are bloody good many been playing since 1st day release and many will if you ask nicely help you as well.

So I feel the rage mate we think we doing the right thing etc and boom dead.

My advice try hanging back a bit and watch things progress dont try to get kills try to improve your time on mission without dying and watch everything around you.

Other advice is join a squad if you aint in one and if you are move because they dont seem to be helping you much.

So basically your not alone alot of us die alot but its fun to.

S!

[expatpom]

You could change the mentions of 'allied' into 'axis' in the original post and it would still apply, believe you me its not a one sided argument especially on game play which is what the issue is.

The issues you mention are the same on the other side.

[GOPHUR]

So alot of us have noticed that you upgraded the allied tanks' date=' and changed their hitspots, thats cool, I can live with that.[/quote']

Then a lot of you need to take off the tin foil hats. There is no such thing as a "hit spot" in our damage model.

Now that we have that cleared up let's see if we can address some actual issues.

What I can't live with is unlooading 5 bullets in someones face, them getting up and shooting me afterwards.

I can't live with eis who are shot dead on with an ATR(I even see blood splatter) and keep running like nothing happened.

There are two things possible here and neither of them is cheating. The most likely thing is that the target has not yet recieved the information that you killed him. This can be because his connection is slow (which means he started running a while ago and you're just now seeing it, or that your connection is slow (and he hasn't realized he's dead yet). This one is internet lag and to combat it we kick people off of our connections pretty strongly (see all the posts about people getting disco form the host).

The other option is that the host did something funky and sent the packet to the wrong guy. Pretty rare so probably not what you are describing here. Note that you see the blood because you pulled the trigger not because the target received the hit.

Or the fact that apparently im able to be shot through solid walls by small arms fire,

In 10 years no one has ever reproduced this. I imagineit can happen if the shooters frame rate is low enough but I've not been able to replicate it. Give me a replication method and I'll gladly fix it. I'll probably even immortalize you in the WWIIOL terrain with a monument. I roll like that.

or the fact that im shot in the face by a RIFLEMAN from about 300m away without even aiming, and me sprinting(this has happened about 10 times already today)

I'd say replicate that but he, yeah, KILLER can make that shot. I know you thik it's an aim bit. OK go get one and show me how to use it and your success at it and the monument of immortality awaits. Maybe you'll succeed where I've failed. I'd love for that to happen.

Or unloading entire loads of riflegrenades into apparently invinceable enemy troops.

Can happen. Grenade kill radius is pretty small and the FoV and distance in game can mess with perceptions. Best thing to do is try the beta server. Here's me killing clones:

That's 50 clones in a ~6m circle. Most dead. Those rays are the pieces of shrapnel big enough to kill a man. The others we don't calculate. Concussion at that distance can do a lot. Now also note these are clones, not real troopers so they do die easier, but not much.

Maybe not miilitary grade but it's not a hit bubble either.

I can't even BEGIN to go into the fact that the allies seem to have instantly available unlimited amounts of supplies since the start of bloody battles...

Of course you can't. I can't lay Easter Eggs. Whatchagonnado.

If all of these things were occuring once, or occassionally, i would just say it was coincidence, or luck, or latency.

But when these things have been happening repeatedly several nights in a row, I cannot blame lag. Sure, go ahead and say I suck at this game, but karma is gonna bite you in the ass someday for lying to a pagan, cause while im not the BEST player by any means, Im fairly sure its physically impossible to do many of these things without exploiting, aimbotting, or outright cheating.

No lying here. I can't explain your experience any more than I can lay those eggs. I can say that I do a LOT of testing to try and replicate issues and almost every issue I've replicated I've seen fixed. I'd actually say every but I know there's a couple that are still dogging me.

Now I haven;t replicated them all but I've tried. And unless it is replicated it is a myth. Some myths are real but I don't believe in myths.

So inclosing, two things.

First know that I respect and understand your frustration. Nothing you mentioned in this post is something that I would allow to exist in my game world given the option.

Secondly, help me have the option. Try and figure out what is happening in these situations. You don't have to. It's fair for you to rant when you're frustrated. I get that. But at the end of the day I can't fix rants. I can only fix bugs. And bugs have to be replicated. If you can give me a lead you'll find I'm one helluva bug hunter.

And I dont play with cheaters.

Not nearly as often as you think you do I'd bet.

[GOPHUR]

I typed all that out! All that testing!

You could at least call me something unpleasant. A little snark would do fine thank you very much.

[Stu]

I typed all that out! All that testing!

You could at least call me something unpleasant. A little snark would do fine thank you very much.

You look like a moldy hamster.

[Wingit]

HeHeHe!

gopher,

When I read the initial post, my mind condensed it into:

"Waaaaaah, waaaaah! Aimbotscheatsbiasnerfed Waaaaah! etc.etc."

I would suspect that your measured, technical, polite response has either sent him back to the nursery until he/she/it grows up.

Or, he/she/it is too busy trying to replicate all the so-called problems to waste time getting back to you.

Either way, yours was a brilliant response to a wild and inaccurate statement.

p.s. nearly 300 views. Just think of how many you've helped.

Edited April 6, 2012 by Wingit

[GOPHUR]

"p.s. nearly 300 views. Just think of how many you've helped."

Well that's certainly better than being called a mouldy hamster! Looking at you STU!!!

[pinche]

Love the video and the explanation and the vehicle diagrams.

Gophur,

Are the composite diagrams of the vehicles displayed anywhere (wiki's etc) Or are they not meant for non-rat consumption? If they are public, can you point me in the direction of where I could find them?

Thanks

George "Pinche" Conley

Then a lot of you need to take off the tin foil hats. There is no such thing as a "hit spot" in our damage model.

Now that we have that cleared up let's see if we can address some actual issues.

[fivr6]

iv had similer issues which i put down to lag most of the time.

today me and another guy have had 3 incidents with the same lw pilot

1st 1 was me getting into a turn fight in a spit vb and watching a 109 stroll in behind me and just keep pulling tighter and tighter till he nailed me. that might well be me being crap but i was under the impression no 109 will out turn a vb?

2nd and 3rd incident was me and the other guy both having head on shots with bofors from sub 100 meters both with no effect. that couldnt be lag because both of us (at different times) had zero deflection shots literally shooting him in the face.

im not naming him because it might be explained away but it does feel fishy

any suggestions what was goin on?

[rwkeen]

Gophur, did you know since your name has changed to lowercase on the forums whenever you post it no longer appears in the Dev Tracker forum!

[reddog]

Gophur' date=' did you know since your name has changed to lowercase on the forums whenever you post it no longer appears in the Dev Tracker forum![/quote']

I noticed that too, but Suspect MotorMouth is dropping Easter Egg's on Gopher.

S!

Edited April 12, 2012 by Reddog

[fivr6]

re being shot through a wall

people clip through walls all the time i killed a elmg the other day by shooting his foot that was sticking through the wall.

i died today to an lmg when i was lying down behind a wall i guess my arm was poking through. its there i know about it and try to play around it

[peegee77]

This one is internet lag and to combat it we kick people off of our connections pretty strongly (see all the posts about people getting disco form the host).

First, this is meant to be helpful and not having a go. We all want to nail these problems. But I don't believe people get kicked for laggy connections. I suspect that the server will tolerate a "silence" from the client of between 2 and 5 seconds... and an awful lot can happen in that time.

I guess you are in a difficult place. You have a server in a single geographical location serving the whole world, so latency will be an issue. And you need more players, so you don't want to tick them off with frequent disconnects. But tolerating such a long period of silence from the client causes... how shall I say it... all sorts of problems.

[fxmmauser]

...

This both for gophur and mikerahl all of this things happen and have a source most of the points brought up are not well explain or a little inaccurate.

But unfortunately the game systems still promote this kind of hate and sometimes CRS staff avoids or it's not direct enough replying in an adult serious and sincere way (sometimes when it does like the last open letter from doc may take time to happen)

Red = serious issue;

Dark Orange = poor or bad implementation;

About Allied tank spots:

S35 sap spot

Not sure if he is referring to the s35 the satchel spot between the side bumps, pre-1.32 this would almost 100% blow the tank after 1.32 a couple of players including myself notice it would now more often stay on white smoke it could almost always be destroyed with a second satchel... this is also a harder sap spot because it's not just in the middle I believe it has to be alittle up.

There are a couple of other game systems and implementations that can lead to this:

- The HEAT on PZ IV D and Stug B sometimes do not detonate there is no feedback from it ingame, it falls often to the HEAT to be able to kill a char and the heavy french tanks on first tiers.

- The changes on detracking tanks 20mm and 37mm can't detrack most of allied tanks or are too difficult to do so.

- The obscure ballistic system there is no context when you fail or succeed it's a great concept, it's fun, engaging, refreshing, adds a little of luck and randomness but the real ballistic advertise is never truly seen or understood by the player, that's what we need to have access post sortie of some basic calculations and a the visual damage model with the player hits.

- The engine on/off hit - can lead players into thinking that hitting a tank with his engine and seeing it on flames will mean it will always do so if his engine is off.

- The enginner HE satchel - the latest changes to give the engineer a HE might lead new players into think that a HIGH explosive is effective agaisnt tanks, it should mention in the enginner spawn screen HE - High explosive (not anti tank).

Multiple Hits no Kills and hits through solid walls by small arms fire (1.34 Serious Lag issues)

This happens due to the changes on the transmission of packages between players, the lag it's unprecedented at least on my 6 years of playing, just the other day I hit 3 times an EI on torso I received his information on his shot on my PC I died and he was still standing I despawn scored kill but thought he was still alive, I had in fact really killed him that was a 5+ second kill, I also was getting shot multiple times but just dieing after I had reach the safety of some walls.

- Possible torrent (packet loss) exploit:

I once was playing unaware that I had active torrents, when downloading files from servers there is usually no packet loss only higher ping but when downloading torrents you can artificially increase packet loss at least on my pc, in this case my Death took longer to occur usually for a couple of seconds which allowed me to kill more players.

Live situation: I once encounter an allied player receive multiple hits from teammates and alot from myself and he still lived, I had shot and hit him but then he got me I died, I respawned with lmg and was still able to to hit him multiple times after around 20 secs he died that problably totals 60 secs of not receiving the packet with his death.

- Hitting in your game and hitting on the other player game

About hitting enemies players on your game for what I understand from CRS previous statements is:

If you hit an enemy on your PC seeing his blood splatter and you are still alive it means you really hit him the consequences of that hit will only be seen by you when the packets arrived to the other player and he transmits his packets to you.

This also means if you shoot at the tracks of a floating tank in your game it will detrack him.

I believe CRS is too kind against players with packet loss...

shot in the face by a RIFLEMAN from about 300m away without even aiming, and me sprinting

Just the other day I made a 11 kill rtb rifleman 9 of those kills were done at between 250-400m with sprinting eis going in different directions the rest was done 50m or less with ei aware of my position.

How can you know he hit you in the face and did not aim? Torso hits can kill with one shot which is easier.

If you want to survive more often just run on bush lines not on open ground/plains avoid running at the same speed and direction, do zigzagging when you underfire or when you know the enemy saw you do full and half zigzags in a diagonal but almost frontal towards your enemy use bushline if possible, Only sprint horizontally from prone to prone between cover never use camo because the player will see you stopping there.

(Know your enemy, Make the enemy believe they know what you are doing and then exploit it)

Some people think sprinting horizontally to an enemy rifleman is hard to hit, it's actually very easy you just have to shoot more in front of him.

Its harder to shoot a zigzagging and moving opponent with a rifle at 50m even if he is straight in front of you than a sprinting ei at 400m.

Or unloading entire loads of riflegrenades into apparently invinceable enemy troops.

I haven't seen this, but I think the bug that made players froze their death animation might help this thinking, players also loose connection to the game and sometimes their character can stay in the world.

I'm pretty sure the axis grenadier can still shoot nades at his feet and survive which is kinda of an exploit.

exploiting, aimbotting, or outright cheating.

Well this is kinda of CRS fault I don't know of any official response on the fact that when you search Battleground europe you can find a hacking service with live pictures showing hacks and saying its not detected ... It does make you wonder.

- Ability to launch game while not fully/half patch

This is a thing that bothers me, I had several patches failed in the past I was still able to launch and play the game with the new patch features missing.

This seems to show that there isn't a checksum when the game is loading to check if it's the same version as the host/server.

Could someone take or modifie the file which handles the foliage?..I don't know.

- No feedback from .report cheat

This is one of those things that really degrades the service quality and keeps fueling the cheating conspiracy.

When I report some cheating I need to know if he was or wasn't cheating, sometimes I have caught people cheating right infront of me reported them and I don't know if any action occur or if I gave enough details there is usually no communication between GMs and Players and that should change.

Unlimited amounts of supplies since the start of bloody battles

Well the first BB axis won hands down it was too easy most allies had given up or were not playing, it wasn't that fun.

In the second BB allies won and scored a lot more than axis, initial in some cases the axis brigade placement favor too much the allies a lot of good axis players had also stop playing due to bugs too so this meant less axis players to attrite the allied supply.

Edited April 13, 2012 by fxmmauser

[peegee77]

Then a lot of you need to take off the tin foil hats. There is no such thing as a "hit spot" in our damage model.

I think we know that there are no "hit spots" as such. Hit spot, sweet spot or whatever is just shorthand for the points on an AFV that are vulnerable to achieve a kill - crew, fuel, ammo or whatever. And these do change, either because something has been deliberately changed or fixed, or as the result of buggy performance. For example, the 38t could originally be killed by an ATR. Then it couldn't. Then we all whinged and moaned so it was changed back again. Now, it is just unreliable for whatever reason. On a recent sortie I was fortunate enough to get shots on three occasions at the 38t, all from about 50m directly behind the vehicle. Each time I aimed at the lower right quarter of the turret rear. The first two tanks blew up immediately. The third one had no effect at all after three shots.

I once was playing unaware that I had active torrents, when downloading files from servers there is usually no packet loss only higher ping but when downloading torrents you can artificially increase packet loss at least on my pc, in this case my Death took longer to occur usually for a couple of seconds which allowed me to kill more players.

I believe CRS is too kind against players with packet loss...

I genuinely believe that 99% of "suspicious" events are simply the result of lag and the way the game works. This is inevitable when the combat is resolved on PC1, passed to the server, then sent to PC2. And at the same time, PC2 is resolving combat and passing it via the server to PC1. There will always be a debate over who did what first. However, I don't believe, for various reasons, that this is the only explanation, and here we have a problem. We want to see these things fixed because they are killing the game. But, we can't say they are exploits because CRS does not allow discussion of exploits (hence my very careful language in my post above). So, we end up chasing bugs that may not be bugs at all. If the server is too kind, or too tolerant with clients that have a high latency or high packet loss, the sort of exploits that can be used are too obvious for me to even have to explain. And I am sure the small minority of cheaters are well aware of them.

[GOPHUR]

Are the composite diagrams of the vehicles displayed anywhere (wiki's etc)

Yeah, I used to keep these on my Gallery site but haven't updated it in a while. I'll put them up temporary here:

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/17278215/Damage%20Model%20Shots.rar

[GOPHUR]

Wow FX that's looks like really good stuff. I'm too busy today to get into it though. Looks like good stuff for a production update too.

Bump me a couple times and I'll get back to this.

[pinche]

Thanks Gophur!!!!

Yeah, I used to keep these on my Gallery site but haven't updated it in a while. I'll put them up temporary here:

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/17278215/Damage%20Model%20Shots.rar

[jwilly]

Wow FX that's looks like really good stuff. I'm too busy today to get into it though. Looks like good stuff for a production update too.

Bump me a couple times and I'll get back to this.

Copied for reference.