AO system is bugged.

[delems]

Place a hard cap on a town, then bounce flags; and it magically like a fairy becomes a soft cap?

Please fix this bug, isn't a hard cap always a hard cap?

[GOPHUR]

You know I need a better example than that.

[delems]

What is so hard to see. With 2 AOs, one can be a hard cap and one can be a soft cap... but...

place 1 AO hard cap, bounce the flags. The system now sees it as a soft cap instead of a hard cap that it was, thus, you can not place the second AO as a soft cap.

This exactly happened to us, we had 2 AO limit, first AO was a hard cap, that we bounced flags to, then we couldn't place the 2nd AO as the system said we already had a soft cap (which it wasn't). Since the bounced town took hours to resolve we could not ever place the real soft cap we needed to place.

[dijk]

Are you sure the OIC isn't trying to switch AO's while having bounced flags?

The town without flags will only still count as hard AO if you do nothing else - meaning it will let you keep two towns with AO's without flags in it - only if you keep them as they are - if you currently have a softcap and you bounce flags from the other AO the system used to allow to keep the AO's, both without flags.

If you switch AO's, even if not the one that was bounced, if you try to set one more AO or if you take one AO out, the system will for all intents and purposes reread the one that is kept, even if it was bounced as a current softcap.

At least it used to be this way a couple of years back, I think. Memory is sketchy, might have been a timer.

[delems]

We hadn't placed the soft cap AO yet, we were about to. We had a hard cap AO and were getting ready to place the soft cap AO; then we bounced the flags just prior to placing the soft cap.

After the flags were bounced we tried to place the second AO, and it said we couldn't because we already had a soft cap.

[dijk]

We hadn't placed the soft cap AO yet, we were about to. We had a hard cap AO and were getting ready to place the soft cap AO; then we bounced the flags just prior to placing the soft cap.

After the flags were bounced we tried to place the second AO, and it said we couldn't because we already had a soft cap.

As I explained above, it's not a bug then. If you had placed the softcap before the flags were booted, the system wold've allowed you to keep both AO's without demanding you take one down on the account they're both softcaps (which is hardcoded), although I think if the timers on the depots hadn't ended it still would.

Since the AO that was a hardcap, had the flags booted before the second AO was on the way (again, the time the ao is on the way I'm not sure, it may be the time the box glows but I think it's the time the depots activate), system then won't allow you to place second AO unless it's a hardcap.

It will check itsel and see. We have 1 AO - yes, does it have flags on it - no - the second AO must.

Its been that way since I can remember.

[delems]

My point is, it is a bug. A hard cap AO should remain a hard cap AO even if you bounce the flags. The AO was placed with flags in town, thus it is a hard cap AO. AOs shouldn't just change in the middle of their existence.

It was a hard AO, it should remain a hard AO. So, to me it is a bug.

[narg]

Place a hard cap on a town, then bounce flags; and it magically like a fairy becomes a soft cap?

Please fix this bug, isn't a hard cap always a hard cap?

Doc has explained this to us before. We lodged complaints but the thing is is that the system cannot tell the difference between what was just a hard cap and now is a flagless town and an actual softcap. System only identifies if a flag is or is not present

[delems]

Set a flag somewhere when AO is placed; then check it later; BOOL AOisHard; if AOtown has flags AOisHard=TRUE else AOisHard=FALSE; Then, every time the system looks at an on board AO it just checks the flag. This way, it won't matter if flags are moved out or flags are moved in, the AO stays the way it was placed.

Though, thinking through this a bit more; soft cap AOs should become hard cap AOs if flags move in. So, on AO check add one more line before the actual check.... if !AOisHard and flags are in town then AOisHard=TRUE; This will allow for hard caps to remain hard caps even if flags are bounced, but soft caps to become hard caps if flags are moved in.

See, not that hard to figure out or do; heck, I even wrote most the code for you.

[GOPHUR]

I propose getting rid of softcaps all together.

Rule: If a town is frontline, empty (no brigade) and unsupported (no friendly brigade within 1 link) then an enemy brigade may move into and claim ownership of that town without the need to place an AO.

There may need to be movement penalties associated with that.

Thoughts?

[petie]

Yeah that sounds good Gpohur

Maybe make the movement penalty similar to what a softcap would be now.

30mins average for cap

10 mins radios hot

10 mins for bunker cappable

10 mins or so to cap CP's

30 Mins, plus movement times as normal, 60 mins for frontline

So once flag moved in, then would get 90 minute timer before can move again

[delems]

I don't think that will work; one will never be able to really break out or extend to the flanks. You know neither side is going to push 2 flags by themselves out to a flank, so without soft caps the game will boil down to a simple attrition in the center of the map. Very boring.

Flags pretty much have to move 2 at a time; it is very hard for a single flag to do much at a flank or break out, thus, nothing will happen.

There will be no wars any more in the S at Jarny or between Etain and Metz; both sides rarely put any flags down there; no flag, no action. Also, the N and KM/Navy will never see action as they can't move to non docks towns. Both N and S flanks will be completely dead. Again, boring static center play stacked flagged attrition.

If you want to remove soft caps; then you have to give more flags on the map, ala squad Battalion flags, which is the answer to so many structural problems this game has atm, excluding bugs. If you don't go with squad battalion flags then the only other way is to take the 2 INF flags, add the supply up, and make 3 INF flags out of them, more flags means both sides will extend the flanks more.

In summary, eliminating soft caps would not work at all imo.

PS lots of other issues too, no way for newbs to earn rank, can't practice on AI. No more warm town battles or para battles or no mans battles; in addition to buffering AFs etc. Also, some times people like to just chill out with a soft cap or too, get away from the town fighting. Just don't think it would work at all.

[bigrow]

I propose getting rid of softcaps all together.

Rule: If a town is frontline, empty (no brigade) and unsupported (no friendly brigade within 1 link) then an enemy brigade may move into and claim ownership of that town without the need to place an AO.

There may need to be movement penalties associated with that.

Thoughts?

While i strongly disagree with just about every word of delems post and i would REALLY like to see the back of softcapping, i did come across a problem with your idea.

The zees have several towns without a dock or AF. To prevent your enemy from capping one of these towns you could easily move your own flag away(more than 1 link), changing the target from a 'no mans land' town, to a softcap, meaning no flag can move there except an army unit ie it couldnt now be capped(we don't want to require army flags to move the zees do we?). I spent last night trying to think of a work-around that would allow navy flags to fight over these towns, WITHOUT letting navy/air flags softcap on the flanks as we see today....but i couldn't come up with a good solution that wouldn't require alot of extra rules and coding(i assume that's important).

Still, how about this:

AOs on towns more than 1 link from any friendly flag, can only be completed upon the moving in of a flag. So a no mans land AO can be as normal. Some softcapping can still be done, in the form of a navy/air/para push. But only within the range of a port(not so much AFs, as they would likely still be frontline), or if one side commits army flags and the other side doesn't.

To give an example...

Allies are in Dun with a navy flag.

Axis are in Verdun with a navy flag.

Allies cap consevoye under no mans land rules but can't move in.

Allies AO Verdun and cap all CPs, navy flag must move in within 10 minutes or Verdun reverts to axis.

Allies can then cap Etain and Fresnes, but to push any further they MUST use an army flag, because they can't move into Etain without first owning Spincourt and Jarny(making it a buffered AF).

I think this would limit useless softcapping we see today and stop either side softcapping too far(if they commit army flags then fine imo), while still retaining some sense of pressure on the flanks. As a result increasing the value of some towns while also introducing some new tactical plays.

[bigrow]

Off topic...

Delems have you ever posted a full thoery of you 'squad flags'? I really don't see them working but i am interested to see if you have thought of something that i haven't. I'd suggest the barracks for that thread if you haven't already.

[delems]

Simply disagreeing is way to easy, need some data behind it.

I have presented many facts as to why soft caps shouldn't be eliminated, and if they are, it will imo completely ruin the game. But, if you think any of my reasons are flawed, please present valid data that shows why.

One should also define what a soft cap is; my definition is a town that has no enemy flag in or adjacent to it. Towns w/o flags; but have flags adjacent are warm caps imo, and not soft caps.

P.S. I'm getting the impression by some of the recent RAT comments (and lack of action) that they are becoming out of touch with this game, the mechanics and how it plays. This saddens me, I will continue to hope for the best.

PS1 Regarding squad flags, no I don't believe I have; (been mulling how to write a paper that is very clear and concise on this, specifically detailed enough to be nearly used as a high level design spec). Basically, it is a battalion flag, that is part of the over all HC TOE structure (meaning seamlessly fits in), but allows squads full LOCAL movement and Rank 3 and above supply control.

[DOC]

It's not being "out of touch" it's not being able to give everyone what they ask for when they ask for things that are not in agreement with each other. Or that cause other negatives they don't consider important but which may well be anyway. Every individual opinion about "how it should be" has to be compared to the collective whole, and the opinions that oppose it, and what would work or not work based on a critical evaluation of positives and negatives including those the original opinion might consider unimportant but still exist despite that. If you "get what you want" it is always because what you want passed this wide range of considerations and represented a feature or aspect of the game that was feasable and desirable after passing through all of those filters. It never ends with "being a good idea" that's simply where it starts. A good idea may well fail other tests it must pass and that doesn't mean it was ignored.

Softcaps are generally very unpopular. For everyone that thinks they should be able to break out a flank and cap their way to the end game because the other side "didn't stop them" there are many many more, who when they see this happen, hate it with enormous venom.

It's really hard to please everyone unless they all think the same, and they do not. We also don't really want to make things more complex than they are now. Most people do not want to read a 300 page manual just to understand the most basic things, and we are aware the game is already far too complex in it's current state.

The trick is to get the functions and gameplay some of this complex stuff offers, and implement it in a way it is more easily understood and enabled.

Again, only those who like a feature will want it, those who don't like it will say the game is broken because of it.

As to the OP, AO's are not broken, the game just doesn't know a softcap now might have been a hard cap 5 minutes ago, it only knows what it is now. You can ask for this to change but I don't think we can do that right now. So it's not broken, it just doesn't work the way you want it to.

I favour Gophurs suggestion because we can probably do that fairly easily, and restrict the ease of it with timers so that it doesn't become too gamey, and more people will be happy than are currently happy about how it works now.

Edited May 3, 2012 by DOC

[swdsman]

Just to add my 2 cents. I personally am in favor of keeping softcaps.

[delems]

====

Softcaps are generally very unpopular. For everyone that thinks they should be able to break out a flank and cap their way to the end game because the other side "didn't stop them" there are many many more, who when they see this happen, hate it with enormous venom.

====

Do you really think it is on the attacker to pause and say; hmm, you didn't cover your South side, would you please move some flags down there so we can attack? Really, like really, you believe it is not the fault of the defender for leaving flanks open? Imo, it absolutely under no circumstance that I can think of is the attackers fault for the defender leaving towns unguarded. That is fully on the defender and they should endure the full consequence.

You can't really believe or expect a side to go, oh; their S is and not defended, but we won't attack there there, can you?

I really hope you look deeper into this and with more thought.

PS maybe disallowing non sister flag stacking would solve the spread/flank problem and partially help a no soft cap type rule, but haven't thought it through.

PS1 Also, adding the supply up in the 2 INF flags and splitting it up into 3 INF flags wold also help as flanks would be covered better.

Edited May 4, 2012 by delems

[GOPHUR]

What is so hard to see. With 2 AOs, one can be a hard cap and one can be a soft cap... but...

place 1 AO hard cap, bounce the flags. The system now sees it as a soft cap instead of a hard cap that it was, thus, you can not place the second AO as a soft cap.

This exactly happened to us, we had 2 AO limit, first AO was a hard cap, that we bounced flags to, then we couldn't place the 2nd AO as the system said we already had a soft cap (which it wasn't). Since the bounced town took hours to resolve we could not ever place the real soft cap we needed to place.

Correct and working as intended. We don't want you placing soft caps when you have one. If the enemy wants to vacate every time you place an AO and give you all soft caps, well, maybe their tactical genius is beyond my ken but we still don't want you actively placing soft caps. At all. We only allow the one because some situations need it to advance the map.

Bottom line if you're asking for MORE soft caps then your falling on deaf ears.