Why is impossible to kill a frontally sherman at 400m with a panzer 4G In the turret?

[fxmmauser]

The last tier Main Battle tanks are for:

French - Sherman M4A2 vs Germany - Panzer 4G

The Panzer IV G can't kill a sherman gunner at 400m frontally in the turret or degun him or shoot at the turret ring penetrating and immobilizing the gun.

But a sherman can easily take out the gunner of Panzer IVG and its driver frontally and blow its engine off at the same distance.

CRS should play Axis more often for once, because its way unbalanced and please prove me wrong. I have played both sides and a sherman is an Ezmode tank compared to what axis have. The few times I played allied I felt like I was cheating I killed axis tanks with such ease compared to what you must do on axis tanks.

Please revised and retest the sherman damage models or allow free accounts to make missions to test it.

It's far more realistic that sherman tanks in europe faced the Panzer IV H or at least give us some rounds of Panzergranate 40.

The Sherman APHE round is too good at short, medium and long ranges it easily penetrates a tank and flames it and the amount they have is equivalent to infinite on the battlefield.

There are many war reports that in most engagements of axis panzers with allied shermans , PZ IV were able to destroy douzens of sherman while just loosing one or two.

[DeusWolf]

Agree 100% about this specific situation.

[kamel]

Umm. Pardon?

The Pz4 was pretty much on a level with the sherman. Slightly better gun offset by slightly inferior armour and speed.

Typical engagements were typically won by the one who shot and hit first, which on a defensive type battle, greatly favours the defenders.

If you can't kill a sherman frontally with the pz4g, then you're doing something wrong. It's not exactly hard so long as you avoid the mantlet and any highly sloped areas.

Hell, its possible to kill them frontally with a pak38 in the hands of an expert.

Lastly, please provide links to said 'battle reports'... because methinks you've been watching too much history channel. All the official reports I've seen place the PanzerIV either on a level, or slightly worse than the Vanilla sherman in every way except the gun... and I'm not aware of any kind of meeting engagement where a force of panzer 4's took out 'dozens' of shermans in exchange for one or two. Hell, they rarely did that well even against the russians.

The pzIVG? Why? You already basically have one minus the L48 gun. There is basically no difference.

Lastly, have you noticed the stats? This campaign m4a2 vs pz4g is almost exactly equal. There is 0.02 difference.

Why would CRS screw up something that is already pretty perfectly balanced?

[su]

dont mean to be a thorn in your axis side but the pz 4g is vastly inferior as far as armor goes i mean they have the same amount of hull armor but look at the slope on the shermans front almost 60* compared to the pz 4s ~50mm at roughly 90* and m4a2s had ~64mm of hull armor so its really around ~100mm once you account for the slope and a pz 4g 75mm gun could only penetrate 100mm of armor at ~30* while the sherman does considerably worse around 90mm at a 90* slope at dangerously close ranges and as far as turrets go the shermans turret will bounce 75s 90% of the time because it was designed to do so any german armor will succeed at long distances thus is why they designed the armor plating so flat because when the enemy fired the round at the pz 4/tiger the round had a high chance of bouncing because gravity pulled it down and when it pulled the round down it put the armor at more of a slope thus the shermans sloped armor acts completely opposite, it basically becomes flat and useless when a round is fired from a long distance the way gravity handles it it directs the armor piercing cap more toward the plate it is going through thus making it more effective, but at close ranges the cap is almost useless when fired at a shermans front because of its slope that is the way it was designed and that is the way it works, and that is why you think pz 4g is underpowered against the sherman, you are not using it right, that is all.

[fxmmauser]

Umm. Pardon?

The Pz4 was pretty much on a level with the sherman. Slightly better gun offset by slightly inferior armour and speed.

If you can't kill a sherman frontally with the pz4g, then you're doing something wrong. It's not exactly hard so long as you avoid the mantlet and any highly sloped areas.

Let me see if I get what you saying you telling me that it isn't hard to kill a sherman frontally if I avoid the sloped areas and the mantlet... Well the most sloped area on a sherman is the entire front if you add the turret mantlet there isn't much to shoot at ?!.. Did I understood that correctly you are basically saying I can't kill a sherman frontally unless he turns his turret so I could hit his side of the turret...

So the Sherman has also a slightly slopped armor something that a PZ IV does not have. If you face a sherman from a slightly higher terrain slightly diagonal you are pretty much invincible has sherman.

Pretty sure red means high level of armor. That is a huge difference...

PZ IV H - has a number of improvements, first they took out the gunner slit the spot that all allied tanks always aim for.. a Stuart, a Daimler and I think Pan can easily take out a PZ IV G frontally (I have always done it many times).

The PZ IV H had better armor including track side skirts and the Turret had improved armor with a space between the original turret armor and added.

Typical engagements were typically won by the one who shot and hit first, which on a defensive type battle, greatly favours the defenders.

You talk about the first shot deciding who won, well I have done multiple first shots(this mean I done the first 2 shots or+) over 5 years on sherman tanks just a couple of days ago I had 4 first shots frontally on turret and front, nothing happen no kill but then he on his first shot hit me on turret and I'm dead. I guess statement is true to one side.

Hell, its possible to kill them frontally with a pak38 in the hands of an expert.

Yeah I done it a couple of days ago, what did it took? luck and a rookie sherman after hitting multiple times the turret at a real close range 100m>x

the sherman blew up probably the round bounced from the back of the turret and hit the ammo storage.

Lastly, please provide links to said 'battle reports'... because methinks you've been watching too much history channel. All the official reports I've seen place the Panzer IV either on a level, or slightly worse than the Vanilla sherman in every way except the gun... and I'm not aware of any kind of meeting engagement where a force of panzer 4's took out 'dozens' of shermans in exchange for one or two. Hell, they rarely did that well even against the russians.

"On the afternoon of June 11th of 1944, the 8th Company of the 12th SS Panzer Regiment (12th SS Panzer Division "Hitlerjugend")counterattacked the attempt by Canadian 6th Armored Regiment (along with support units) to capture the area of Le Mesnil-Patry. The 12th SS Panzer Regiment commanded by SS-Obersturmfuehrer Hans Siegel destroyed some 37 Shermans, while losing 2 Panzer IVs and forcing Canadians to retreat."

http://www.achtungpanzer.com/panzerkampfwagen-iv.htm

Lastly, have you noticed the stats? This campaign m4a2 vs pz4g is almost exactly equal. There is 0.02 difference.

Why would CRS screw up something that is already pretty perfectly balanced?

The 0.02 difference happens because axis are win the campaign there are many allied tanks that do not know how to play has a sherman or play a tank globally.

If you happen to find a good allied tanker and you have a PZ IV G you will see the unbalance.

Just log on both sides and count the number of green tags/low ranked or check the names on CSR that are driving shermans check their K/D if its inferior to 1 then he doesn't know how to play.

The pzIVG? Why? You already basically have one minus the L48 gun. There is basically no difference.

Gun:

7.5cm KwK 40 L / 43 had 96mm at 100m

7.5cm KwK 40 L / 48 had 106mm at 100m

This may seem few but I think it actually can do a huge deal the m10 turret has a frontal protection of around 116mm(with º), It's also easier to kill a sherman has a STUG G than a Panzer IV G so in my experience the STUG G gun is way better than a PZ IV G one.

The Sherman Gun also uses APHE, the shell looses less mm at long distances and I'm pretty sure ingame it generates more shrapnel/spall than the AP round which makes it more deadly for the crew even with no penetration.

-The panzer IV H was also the most produced of the PZ IVs and I don't know if it's included the conversions from previous models.

Edited April 28, 2012 by fxmmauser

[Tigger6]

Pak38 can take the Sherman out frontally at 500m with a single shot, just need to know where you want to hit. I suppose the 4g gun has at least the same penetration.

[fxmmauser]

Pak38 can take the Sherman out frontally at 500m with a single shot' date=' just need to know where you want to hit. I suppose the 4g gun has at least the same penetration.[/quote']

Never seen or was able with 50mm atg to take out a sherman frontally at 500m and if you can't take out the gunner it doesn't count...

[Tigger6]

Never seen or was able with 50mm atg to take out a sherman frontally at 500m and if you can't take out the gunner it doesn't count...

Well, how is that my fault? If I can do it, anyone can. Sure, it's a bit tough to find the location without the training server, but it wasn't always down... (And it's a kill of all useful crew members)

[kamel]

Let me see if I get what you saying you telling me that it isn't hard to kill a sherman frontally if I avoid the sloped areas and the mantlet... Well the most sloped area on a sherman is the entire front if you add the turret mantlet there isn't much to shoot at ?!.. Did I understood that correctly you are basically saying I can't kill a sherman frontally unless he turns his turret so I could hit his side of the turret...

Pretty sure red means high level of armor. That is a huge difference...

Those colours don't represent any particular thickness. Yes, much of the front is sloped, some isn't.

Figures for armour thickness are easily available. As are calculators for slope modifiers.

You are being overly simplistic.

So the Sherman has also a slightly slopped armor something that a PZ IV does not have. If you face a sherman from a slightly higher terrain slightly diagonal you are pretty much invincible has sherman.

If the sherman is higher, yes, it is going to be VERY hard to penetrate through the hull. Such is the benefit of sloped armour.

PZ IV H - has a number of improvements' date=' first they took out the [b']gunner slit the spot that all allied tanks always aim for.. a Stuart, a Daimler and I think Pan can easily take out a PZ IV G frontally (I have always done it many times).

The gunner viewport was unchanged. Side superstructure vison ports were deleted. [not modelled at all in game so makes no diff] The frontal turret armour is only 50mm. Anything but a panhard, h38, or r35 can penetrate it out to 500m or so anyway.

The PZ IV H had better armor including track side skirts and the Turret had improved armor with a space between the original turret armor and added.

No, it didn't. They added some to the turret top, making the roof 16mm or so thick... which the pz4g in game already has. Front remained the same at 50+30mm hull/superstructure front. turret at 50mm.

Most changes were cosmetic, or to things the game doesn't model.

Shurtzen were added to nearly ALL german tanks late in the war... it wasn't something special for the pz4. Nor does it really fit with the Tier 2 introduction date... in fact, they barely fit Tier 3.

You talk about the first shot deciding who won, well I have done multiple first shots(this mean I done the first 2 shots or+) over 5 years on sherman tanks just a couple of days ago I had 4 first shots frontally on turret and front, nothing happen no kill but then he on his first shot hit me on turret and I'm dead. I guess statement is true to one side.

Then you need to figure out what you're doing wrong. Since many panzer drivers do just fine.

Sure as eggs, I rarely survive multiple hits.

"On the afternoon of June 11th of 1944, the 8th Company of the 12th SS Panzer Regiment (12th SS Panzer Division "Hitlerjugend")counterattacked the attempt by Canadian 6th Armored Regiment (along with support units) to capture the area of Le Mesnil-Patry. The 12th SS Panzer Regiment commanded by SS-Obersturmfuehrer Hans Siegel destroyed some 37 Shermans, while losing 2 Panzer IVs and forcing Canadians to retreat."

http://www.achtungpanzer.com/panzerkampfwagen-iv.htm

It's very important to read the proper battle synopsis rather than the tiny report you posted... an ambush rarely comes out well for the ambushee. Thus the disparate casualties, rather than any qualitative difference between the tanks.

On the afternoon of Sunday 11 June, 'B' Squadron of the 1st Hussars suffered heavy losses following an abortive attack with The Queen's Own Rifles of Canada on the hamlet of Le Mesnil Patry, North-West of Caen. The attack was due to be launched in the early hours of 12 June but the information was received early on 11 June that the attack had been advanced so the Canadian forces set off at 2:30 PM.[5][6] The Canadian column advanced with B Squadron of the 1st Hussars in the lead, with men of D Company of the Queen's Own Rifles riding on the 1st Hussars's tanks.[6] Panzergrenadiers and tanks of the 12th SS Panzer Division were able to ambush the tanks of 'B' Squadron in a grain field near Le Mesnil Patry in part due to intelligence gleaned from the Hussars' radio traffic after capturing wireless codes from a destroyed Canadian tank on 9 June. After the ambush started men were flung from the tanks that they were riding as the tanks caught fire or exploded, destroying twenty.[7] The commander of the section of the Queen's Own Rifles (Major Elliot Dalton) was wounded in the leg by mortar fire.[7] The commander of the lead element of the Hussars, Lieutenant Colonel Colwell, ordered that the lead element retreat but the order was not heard. Using Panzerfausts, Panzerschrecks and anti-tank guns, the German forces were able to destroy 51 Shermans (all but two of their tanks) and inflict 61 killed or missing, 2 wounded and 11 captured on the vanguard of the 1st Hussars. All of the squadron's officers and all but three of their non-commissioned officers were lost in the fighting. The Queen's Own Rifles suffered 55 killed, 33 wounded and 11 taken prisoner during the attack.[6] An English newspaper called it the modern equivalent of the Charge of the Light Brigade.[7]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Le_Mesnil-Patry

0.02 difference happens because axis are win the campaign there are many allied tanks that do not know how to play has a sherman or play a tank globally.

If you happen to find a good allied tanker and you have a PZ IV G you will see the unbalance.

Just log on both sides and count the number of green tags/low ranked or check the names on CSR that are driving shermans check their K/D if its inferior to 1 then he doesn't know how to play.

Historical K/d ratio is almost identical.

So only noobs play allied? I never knew... or is it that playing Axis automatically makes you uber? ;-)

Gun:

7.5cm KwK 40 L / 43 had 96mm at 100m

7.5cm KwK 40 L / 48 had 106mm at 100m

This may seem few but I think it actually can do a huge deal the m10 turret has a frontal protection of around 116mm(with º), It's also easier to kill a sherman has a STUG G than a Panzer IV G so in my experience the STUG G gun is way better than a PZ IV G one.

The Sherman Gun also uses APHE, the shell looses less mm at long distances and I'm pretty sure ingame it generates more shrapnel/spall than the AP round which makes it more deadly for the crew even with no penetration.

-The panzer IV H was also the most produced of the PZ IVs and I don't know if it's included the conversions from previous models.

Umm, the lowest I've ever seen quoted for the L43 is 99mm @ 100m.

The 75mm sherman, M10's 76mm and the 76mm AT gun all fire APHE... as does every german gun/tank with a calibre 37mm and above.

APHE is king as far as post penetration goes.

So. In summary.

Sherman and pz4g are almost perfectly balanced currently.

In RL there was little difference between the two in terms of combat power.

But you advocate for a [ever so marginally] better Pz4... because you suck more than the average player? ;-)

Edited April 28, 2012 by kamel

[fxmmauser]

This thread was posted to see if I'm the only guy who has been having this problems... Not to flame.

I always struggle on the difficulty to kill a sherman frontally in vary of guns and vehicles despite having usually an upper advantage.

Those colours don't represent any particular thickness. Yes, much of the front is sloped, some isn't.

...

You are being overly simplistic.

This game ballistic system is not perfect might be the most realistic out there amongst games but it doesn't make it realistic, especially when most research, values and calculations are unknown.

The gunner viewport was changed and improved my bad it wasn't taken out, the glancis was also improve.

Shurtzen were added to nearly ALL german tanks late in the war... it wasn't something special for the pz4. Nor does it really fit with the Tier 2 introduction date... in fact, they barely fit Tier 3.

Tier doesn't have no current connection with the date of vehicles or weapons ingame like m10, M4A2, M4A3, G43, Rapts...

It's very important to read the proper battle synopsis rather than the tiny report you posted... an ambush rarely comes out well for the ambushee. Thus the disparate casualties, rather than any qualitative difference between the tanks.

Using Panzerfausts, Panzerschrecks and anti-tank guns, the German forces were able to destroy 51 Shermans (all but two of their tanks) and inflict 61 killed or missing, 2 wounded and 11 captured on the vanguard of the 1st Hussars. All of the squadron's officers and all but three of their non-commissioned officers were lost in the fighting. The Queen's Own Rifles suffered 55 killed, 33 wounded and 11 taken prisoner during the attack.[6] An English newspaper called it the modern equivalent of the Charge of the Light Brigade.[7]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Le_Mesnil-Patry

They mention 51 sherman were lost from anti tank guns, panzershreks, panzerfausts and armor. They do not discriminate which casualties were done by so 34 kills from only Panzer IV still makes sense, it seems like that report is allied and no german reports are mention. Also the links from that battle are mostly nonsense, wikipedia is not the most credible source, the quote from a book on the german side would be trustworthy.

Again on the battle report that I quoted the actual field commanders names are mention, seems to have been taken from an axis panzer after report action.

So. In summary.

Sherman and pz4g are almost perfectly balanced currently.

In RL there was little difference between the two in terms of combat power.

If I'm not wrong the round that the sherman uses in this game is the M61A1 APC -> if it penetrates you are pretty much dead.

It's only balanced if you just played allied and you don't know what it takes to bring down a sherman from it includes alot of text based communication, flanking, drawing attention...

In one week I had 3 incidents at close range 150m-10m engaging sherman tanks the problem is that I always had problems with this tank since I start playing, I also do alot of tanking and combat and usually end with 800-1000 kills per campaign so in theory I would come across more situations than players who just do around 100's kill per campaign.

In summary you said:

The panzer IV H has better armor and a better gun and according to a report where shermans engage a division with panzer IV there were a total of 51 sherman tanks lost.

But you advocate for a [ever so marginally] better Pz4... because you suck more than the average player? ;-)

Coming from a player which KD is 2,09 with only 113 kills and which his worst unit is a sherman tank. I can understand why you think the sherman is balanced

Considering that I have been alot busy lately jumped on half of the campaign, using a free account which my best tank is PZIVG, with no ability to create missions and still my best unit is a PZIVG and manage to do 1.059 killls at a K/D 2,72 , there is no need to add much more

Edited April 29, 2012 by fxmmauser

[kamel]

This thread was posted to see if I'm the only guy who has been having this problems... Not to flame.

You might notice your lack of support.

The gunner viewport was changed and improved my bad it wasn't taken out, the glancis was also improve.

But not in any way that affects armour values in game.

Tier doesn't have no current connection with the date of vehicles or weapons ingame like m10' date=' M4A2, M4A3, G43, Rapts...[/quote']

Year of introduction is the primary qualifier, modified by balance issues. With vehicles, In general, they match years pretty well until the last tier.

They mention 51 sherman were lost from anti tank guns, panzershreks, panzerfausts and armor. They do not discriminate which casualties were done by so 34 kills from only Panzer IV still makes sense, it seems like that report is allied and no german reports are mention. Also the links from that battle are mostly nonsense, wikipedia is not the most credible source, the quote from a book on the german side would be trustworthy.

Again on the battle report that I quoted the actual field commanders names are mention, seems to have been taken from an axis panzer after report action.

Feel free to add a quote from a 'german book'. That quote comes from Jentz. Who isn't German. Nor is his book.

He and his company may well have destroyed 37 shermans... but it still doesn't change the fact that it was a rather well organised AMBUSH. Which is hardly a test of relative vehicle capabilities.

If I'm not wrong the round that the sherman uses in this game is the M61A1 APC -> if it penetrates you are pretty much dead.

and the germans gear uses PZgr39. Which likewise, uses an APHE round that makes a nasty internal mess.

It's only balanced if you just played allied and you don't know what it takes to bring down a sherman from it includes alot of text based communication' date=' flanking, drawing attention...[/quote']

You still haven't explained how/why the stats show the pz4g is maintaining an almost perfect K/d ratio with the Sherman, both in this campaign, and historically. If there was disparity quality wise, then it would show.

The panzer IV H has better armor and a better gun and according to a report where shermans engage a division with panzer IV there were a total of 51 sherman tanks lost.

In an AMBUSH. Buy a dictionary.

Coming from a player which KD is 2,09 with only 113 kills and which his worst unit is a sherman tank. I can understand why you think the sherman is balanced

Considering that I have been alot busy lately jumped on half of the campaign, using a free account which my best tank is PZIVG, with no ability to create missions and still my best unit is a PZIVG and manage to do 1.059 killls at a K/D 2,72 , there is no need to add much more

Blah blah blah. I've been playing this game for ten years. I don't use 'tanks' much any more.. I prefer HARD units. Like the waccy laffy or M10.

[smythes]

They do not discriminate which casualties were done by so 34 kills from only Panzer IV still makes sense' date=' it seems like that report is allied and no german reports are mention...[/quote']

Why?

Are you suggesting after the battle the Germans would have dashed out and done a quick review of the casualties inflicted e.g. even a report by a german unit would not be 100% accurate. E.g. they had the time and energy to apportion their kills????

You ask someone about a common day to day event and everyone will have a different perspective, grasp of the facts, let alone it being combat where stuff really gets confusing quick...

Yes?

The detail you ask for over contested ground let alone from a battle is very very very rare to find...

Also the links from that battle are mostly nonsense, wikipedia is not the most credible source, the quote from a book on the german side would be trustworthy.

If you are suspect of Wiki history(there are actuslly some very well written articles online) ....Here is the quote from "Victory in the West", the official history, about this incident, where the attack by the 6th Canadian started off well but passing through Mesnil Patry:

"..they emerged [and] they found enemy tanks and enemy anti-tank guns waiting for them in position across their front and others opened fire on the Canadians from..their left front..and..on their right."

Ellis, L.F. Victory in the West Volume I The Battle for Normandy London (1962) p. 253.

The Regiment also lost 37 tanks according to this official history and the italics are mine pointing out the ambush aspect that of this engagement which shows that it is hardly a fair use of historical evidcence if you want to start suggesting a ratio of PZ IV to Sherman kills as if it were going to be more than a 1 to 1 basis.

I hate it when people do bad history - it is dangerous.

Edited April 29, 2012 by Smythes

[fxmmauser]

But not in any way that affects armour values in game.

Your are not qualified to answer that.

He and his company may well have destroyed 37 shermans...

but it still doesn't change the fact that it was a rather well organised AMBUSH. Which is hardly a test of relative vehicle capabilities.

I'm repeating what I already said a success ambush means you have to kill with the first shots, the axis done this on that engagement vs shermans but I can't do it on this game vs a sherman tanks. So something is not model right..

There are number of reports from both allied and Axis side mention the sherman efficiency.

and the germans gear uses PZgr39. Which likewise, uses an APHE round that makes a nasty internal mess.

The easiness on which I flame axis tanks when allied is not comparable to axis guns in my experience.

You still haven't explained how/why the stats show the pz4g is maintaining an almost perfect K/d ratio with the Sherman, both in this campaign, and historically. If there was disparity quality wise, then it would show.

Well I believe it has to do that most new axis players are usually serious WW2 gamers and are fed up of being always forced to play allied in 90% of all WW2 games, so it's refreshing to see a game with the axis side. This type of player will be + proactive in learning the game, he usually has already some knowledge of military tactics .... There is also roleplay like loyalty to one side and not given up, this also increase side player retention.

Another thing is that the allied side is more squad based despite having alot of recruits this means most battlefield communication is done by 3rd party software contributing to less text communication ingame which further decreases the Overall K/D, there are good allied players that try to prevent this but it still a big factor in certain campaigns and timezones.

On top of that there is decremental values like high priced monthly subscription, gameplay issues and bugs, system requirements and this will affect the most on not serious gamers especially the mainstream new players that end up playing the allied side.

So in the end there are multiple factors that help increase the Axis K/D but we struggle when we find good players that know to use their equipment.

Blah blah blah. I've been playing this game for ten years. I don't use 'tanks' much any more.. I prefer HARD units. Like the waccy laffy or M10.

That ain't hard try going against a sherman or churchill with a panzer IVG , or kill a rpat incoming to your 6 with a stug g or flaming an m10 from the rear while avoiding parked churchs near him with a 232

[narg]

Those colours don't represent any particular thickness. Yes, much of the front is sloped, some isn't.

Figures for armour thickness are easily available. As are calculators for slope modifiers.

You are being overly simplistic.

If the sherman is higher, yes, it is going to be VERY hard to penetrate through the hull. Such is the benefit of sloped armour.

The gunner viewport was unchanged. Side superstructure vison ports were deleted. [not modelled at all in game so makes no diff] The frontal turret armour is only 50mm. Anything but a panhard, h38, or r35 can penetrate it out to 500m or so anyway.

No, it didn't. They added some to the turret top, making the roof 16mm or so thick... which the pz4g in game already has. Front remained the same at 50+30mm hull/superstructure front. turret at 50mm.

Most changes were cosmetic, or to things the game doesn't model.

Shurtzen were added to nearly ALL german tanks late in the war... it wasn't something special for the pz4. Nor does it really fit with the Tier 2 introduction date... in fact, they barely fit Tier 3.

Then you need to figure out what you're doing wrong. Since many panzer drivers do just fine.

Sure as eggs, I rarely survive multiple hits.

It's very important to read the proper battle synopsis rather than the tiny report you posted... an ambush rarely comes out well for the ambushee. Thus the disparate casualties, rather than any qualitative difference between the tanks.

On the afternoon of Sunday 11 June, 'B' Squadron of the 1st Hussars suffered heavy losses following an abortive attack with The Queen's Own Rifles of Canada on the hamlet of Le Mesnil Patry, North-West of Caen. The attack was due to be launched in the early hours of 12 June but the information was received early on 11 June that the attack had been advanced so the Canadian forces set off at 2:30 PM.[5][6] The Canadian column advanced with B Squadron of the 1st Hussars in the lead, with men of D Company of the Queen's Own Rifles riding on the 1st Hussars's tanks.[6] Panzergrenadiers and tanks of the 12th SS Panzer Division were able to ambush the tanks of 'B' Squadron in a grain field near Le Mesnil Patry in part due to intelligence gleaned from the Hussars' radio traffic after capturing wireless codes from a destroyed Canadian tank on 9 June. After the ambush started men were flung from the tanks that they were riding as the tanks caught fire or exploded, destroying twenty.[7] The commander of the section of the Queen's Own Rifles (Major Elliot Dalton) was wounded in the leg by mortar fire.[7] The commander of the lead element of the Hussars, Lieutenant Colonel Colwell, ordered that the lead element retreat but the order was not heard. Using Panzerfausts, Panzerschrecks and anti-tank guns, the German forces were able to destroy 51 Shermans (all but two of their tanks) and inflict 61 killed or missing, 2 wounded and 11 captured on the vanguard of the 1st Hussars. All of the squadron's officers and all but three of their non-commissioned officers were lost in the fighting. The Queen's Own Rifles suffered 55 killed, 33 wounded and 11 taken prisoner during the attack.[6] An English newspaper called it the modern equivalent of the Charge of the Light Brigade.[7]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Le_Mesnil-Patry

Historical K/d ratio is almost identical.

So only noobs play allied? I never knew... or is it that playing Axis automatically makes you uber? ;-)

Umm, the lowest I've ever seen quoted for the L43 is 99mm @ 100m.

The 75mm sherman, M10's 76mm and the 76mm AT gun all fire APHE... as does every german gun/tank with a calibre 37mm and above.

APHE is king as far as post penetration goes.

So. In summary.

Sherman and pz4g are almost perfectly balanced currently.

In RL there was little difference between the two in terms of combat power.

But you advocate for a [ever so marginally] better Pz4... because you suck more than the average player? ;-)

I would gladly trade my aphe 37mm round for a 47mm Or 25mm with better penetration values

[smythes]

I'm repeating what I already said a success ambush means you have to kill with the first shots, the axis done this on that engagement vs shermans but I can't do it on this game vs a sherman tanks. So something is not model right..

HINT:

Something in your model of how you interpret things is not right.

Thats the most econimical way for me to rephrase it without wasteing time on you.

[kamel]

Your are not qualified to answer that.

Actually, I am. since I've done the research. As far as the game is concerned, the only practical difference between a G and a H is the gun. Armour on the REAL H is functionally identical to the game G.

You have yet to show any information that the armour was in any way different... and you won't. Because it wasn't.

I'm repeating what I already said a success ambush means you have to kill with the first shots' date=' the axis done this on that engagement vs shermans but I can't do it on this game vs a sherman tanks. So something is not model right..[/quote']

In said ambush, the ambushers started with shots on both flanks as well as the front. This makes a considerable difference.

There are number of reports from both allied and Axis side mention the sherman efficiency.

and they say?

The easiness on which I flame axis tanks when allied is not comparable to axis guns in my experience.

Then you are a below average tanker... since the average tanker on both sides, are about even, as shown by the stats.

Well I believe it has to do that most new axis players are usually serious WW2 gamers and are fed up of being always forced to play allied in 90% of all WW2 games' date=' so it's refreshing to see a game with the axis side. This type of player will be + proactive in learning the game, he usually has already some knowledge of military tactics .... There is also roleplay like loyalty to one side and not given up, this also increase side player retention.[/quote']

I read this as... Axis players are better players, more intelligent, and more handsome.

Or will be when they get out of puberty.

Honestly. Are you listening to yourself?

Another thing is that the allied side is more squad based despite having alot of recruits this means most battlefield communication is done by 3rd party software contributing to less text communication ingame which further decreases the Overall K/D' date=' there are good allied players that try to prevent this but it still a big factor in certain campaigns and timezones.[/quote']

*cough*bullcrap*cough*

I've seen both sides comms, Axis 'chat' is a cesspit and many largish axis squads refuse to use the official CRS Teamspeak server for fear of 'spies'.

The exact reverse of what you claim is the reality.

I suggest you stop saluting yourself in the mirror for a bit and try doing some research elsewhere than the 'Discovery Channel'.

You are regurgitating some of the worst and lamest propaganda that makes the rounds of the Axis fanbois... and coming up with new stuff so ridiculous that coffee is dripping from sinuses all over the world post reading it.

[david06]

What exactly are you guys alluding to when you say you've killed M4 shermans from the front?

Yes, if you hit a section of the crewman's hatches at the correct angle you can slip a round through there and kill the gunner, though that's not really feasible past very close range. There's no special jujitsu to make the 4G's 75mm penetrate the sloped hull, let alone the mantlet area at medium range in this game.

CRS hasn't published any information about their damage models, there have been many unlisted changes over the years, and nothing is really up for review so it's useless to quote historical sources. There's absolutely no transparency with models, not even a schematic of components for each vehicle; I think those photos are from an old demo/press release.

It's far more realistic that sherman tanks in europe faced the Panzer IV H or at least give us some rounds of Panzergranate 40.

The Sherman APHE round is too good at short, medium and long ranges it easily penetrates a tank and flames it and the amount they have is equivalent to infinite on the battlefield.

There are many war reports that in most engagements of axis panzers with allied shermans , PZ IV were able to destroy douzens of sherman while just loosing one or two.

Do not think of it as a "Panzer IV G". It is an axis tank introduced in tier 2 that's been made to fit whatever mold that CRS has set for it. From past comments they consider the final K/D ratio to be the overriding factor so it's pointless to complain about other aspects, like ease-of-use.

They could put add a pink pather riding a bicycle and if they feel it fits the game then they'll keep it even though it may not be realistic, just like the 1942 tiger vs 1944 shermans, etc.

Edited April 30, 2012 by david06

[Hinfoos]

. As far as the game is concerned' date=' the only [b']practical difference between a G and a H is the gun.

that is all that is needed to survive.

[smythes]

...so it's useless to quote historical sources.

Thanks for your input David06.

I'd say it isn't useless to quote historical sources.

When someone is posting fairy la la stuff a dose of history does no harm, especially when someone trys to say an "event is not an Ambush" when independent historical sources show otherwise.

The OP was misreading history (skimming the surface) and drawing a very fragile conclusion with which to view his perspective in game. If we went with such a conclusion the game would depart even further from the reality it is.

Edited May 1, 2012 by Smythes

[fxmmauser]

The OP is tied to this one http://forums.battlegroundeurope.com/showthread.php?t=391069

in a week there were just with me 3-4 incidents with the sherman vs Panzer IV G, when I had the first shots from short distances.

One of the most successful hit spots on a tank is on the turret ring where the turret meets the hull of the tank, alot of sherman tanks were brought down due to this and axis tankers aimed always for this spot, unfortunately I don't think this is even model here.

I could have rephrased but what I ask is for retesting of the damage models of the sherman there always a lot of complains about it on axis for years and I had a number of problems with them, yes I can always kill them if I hit it on the side but every tank can be killed that way.

I have played on allied a couple of times with both stuart and sherman tanks A2 and I had no difficult with any axis tank a tiger is deadly at a long range but its unbelievable easy to kill if he is at at short or medium distances and almost all Allied AFV can easily flank and can kill every axis tank.. Like the dac, the pan and the stu I done plus 5 et sorties in 2-3mins just by flanking at all speed axis columns with PZ IV G, STUG G and Panzer IIIH ..

....

There is a substantial difference between axis text communication and allied chat text communication .. At least on the last campaign I was in.

Still a big portion of players don't really know how to play the game including some older players, there is still a huge number of tankers that drive with there commanders inside on 1.34 (with RPATs) and then complain about RPATs honestly my tank sorties now include from 1rpat to 14 rpats kia

*I'm pretty sure Ambush doesn't mean the attacker hits the sides means first shots are done by the attacker at a not expected time and place usually from multiple directions.

Edited May 1, 2012 by fxmmauser

[DOC]

This is not a bug report and both vehicles (M4a2 Sherman and Panzer IVg) are functioning within expected parameters.

An opinion that it is wrongly modeled does not constitute a bug condition responsible for it being wrong, and this is a bug reporting forum.

I don't have time for long explanations here, but the posts by Kamel regarding how things are modeled are the most accurate of any in this thread. His understanding is both logical and unbiased and appears to be based on an effort to understand how things really work rather than rely on his imagination. I suggest everyone take it as a good example of how to grasp what happens when you think it is wrong, but don't know for certain why. Research and experience and objective analysis are your very best friends in any such endeavour.

Color coded armor values for example; from CRS released cutaways, are relative only to the vehicle example pictured, green or red (or whatever color) represent relative thickness values ON THAT VEHICLE alone. these colors depict a range and not a specific point value. Red pictured on a PzKw.IVg is not nesssesarily identical to red pictured on an M4a2 Sherman ... each color is drawn from relative values within the vehicle data file for that vehicle at the time the picture is rendered.

The thinnest armor on a PzKw.VIe Tiger tank will be green. The green areas of a Tiger tank are thicker than the green areas on an M10 Wolverine, for example, but they will both render as green when the cutaway is rendered from data.

Edited May 1, 2012 by DOC