MP40 Needs to be fixed

[fxmkorp]

By all means give it the dispersion of the Thompson... *laughs*

Why? it's balanced... it would end discussions like this in an instant.

There won't be any serious real life testing by CRS to study and model as accurate as possible infantry weapons in terms of firing, dispersion, range, sound, control-ability and real life accuracy.

Without this serious investigation while keeping making changes to their dispersion model they are just placing themselves in the line of fire to get attacked by both sides.

Not doing so is Unwise at this stage...

I'm for all weapons to be model as most historically and realistic as possible but I know this ain't coming soon, so it's better to balance gameplay at least contributing to a more stable community & gameplay.

Let skill be the factor for now

Edited August 27, 2012 by fxmkorp

[xspiers]

Eats popcorn*

[GOPHUR]

Is there a bug being reported? I see a lot of speculation and no testing reports. Tough for me to go on that.

I'll attempt to decipher the original "report".

Whats up everyone, as we all know if you play axis the MP40 has changed dramatically throughout the years.

Well there are a lot of things that could be changed.

The weapon could have changed. But it hasn't changed since August of 2007. Probably not the "culprit".

Then there's the ammo and belt files. Probably not the belt file since this thing only fires one kind of ammunition. Looks like a 9mm SMG round for the ammo as indicated in the weap file.

Yikes. That file hasn't changed since 2004. Certainly not that one.

That pretty much leaves the animation files.

The Thompson does have greater muzzle climb that the MP40, and the MAS has a little less. Most of the other characteristics are shared. But again, these files haven't changed since February 2010.

We all know the allied smg's are way better (uber) than ours and this is to much,

Pretty subjective. We build most weapons to mimic the real world counterpart as close as possible. That means that your 9mm ammo has different characteristics than the Thompson .45 Cal.

It isn't Halo but we like it. We didn't build WWIIOL to be a RvB match game. We built it to play war.. And us grognards kinda like the differences. Well, at least when we aren't cursing them for letting the other guy win. But that's just talk.

I remember you used to be able to shoot the mp40 without this huge recoil from it as well as used to be able to snipe with it (shoot far away, like allied smg's do).

Hmm.

But now the gameplay is horrible with the smg, it kicks like a mule which is complete bs because there are plenty of videos online showing the mp40 hardly had a kick to it in real life.

Ah the online video. You can see pretty much anything you want in one of those including how there is no recoil firing a 70 year old SMG. Most of the dispersion doesn't come from the gun. We have all that historically modelled with the weapon and ammo files.

Bottom line is that firing on a range is not in any way the same as a guy firing after walking 3 days and sleeping in a hole who woke up this morning with a hot grenade in his bead and the sound of enemy rifles for breakfast.

We can argue this forever but at the end of the day if you want to invite me to the range to shoot these three weapons side by side I'd be more than happy to reevaluate our decisions. I've personally only fire one of them. And it kicks like a son of a *****.

The Mp40 bullets are EXTREMELY WEAK and you need to pump a whole clip into an enemy just to kill them.

Bullsh. I can kill EI with one bullet all day long. That's testing not love fire and your sit rep may affect your observed results.

As to weak, you provide the penetration tables and other ammo data and I'll show you mine. Firebugs is right that the BC is off but that's not going to have a massive impact on our fighting and is universal for all.

The Allied smg is way to fast, accurate, looks to have very little recoil and can shoot from very far away unlike ours and we need a little balance here (Did I forget to mention their bullets do alot more damage than ours). I'm sick of using the MP40 at a small distance and having bullets shoot around my enemy as if I was using the AK47 in full auto in the old school counter strike days (basically shoots all around the enemy). I'm realistic and know any changed soon will only be in my dreams but one can only hope to get back the smg like it used to be.

Good news! It's exactly like it used to be!

/sarcasm

There is something in what you say though. You can dramatically increase your dispersion by your play style. The longer you aim for instance the worse it will get. Wounded or tired will also make it worse.

I think you might benefit from spending some time on the range and re familiarizing yourself with a few of those mechanics. Might help.

By the way a Luger thread will soon follow some other time. If anyone remembers the lugar back in the day then you know what I'm talking about.

Sweet. I love these threads. For the next one, try a little empirical evidence to support your argument. It makes it more fun for us all.

Edited September 5, 2012 by GOPHUR

[GOPHUR]

Give us the same firing and dispersion of the tommy on the mp 40 and we will all be happy and it will be balance!

End this argument pls

That's one answer. Just not an answer I like. We did that with the mortars and I can see the benefit. It's more balanced but underneath just not as cool. That'd be like playing football with identical robots but the difference was just the minds behind... OK bad example cause that would be cool.

[fxmkorp]

That's one answer. Just not an answer I like. We did that with the mortars and I can see the benefit. It's more balanced but underneath just not as cool. That'd be like playing football with identical robots but the difference was just the minds behind... OK bad example cause that would be cool.

MP 40 is not cool at the present time, first the soldier grabs the mp40 incorrectly, historical the second hand would grab the magazine housing when firing from crouch and standing position, if you want to make it cooler revamp the audio from single and continuous fire, revamp the visuals and how its grab and add he 200m sight.

The wild shots I already cover are really unrealistic and have no visual feedback.

CRS already stated that they weren't able to link the visual gun fire with the actual place the gun is aiming like RO.

If you play online with MP 40 constantly, shooting with not full green bar, wounded, or going sideways you should see it, I know I see it and I'm sure this topics will still keeping being created.

Gophur does CRS have the luxury of keeping being attacked and flamed about many aspects including this one? Forums is just a small minority of the player base you should see ingame...

This is a PVP game gives us fair competition, if the dispersion model of the tommy is given to all smg while keeping the individual ballistics like bullet drop and joules it would be a more friendly, easy and fair solution to everyone.

Edited September 6, 2012 by fxmkorp

[rule303]

As someone who has experience with firearms and ballistics, I can tell you this much: ALL SMG's are underpowered and do not perform like the real things.

-Recoil too high. They fire low powered cartridges from a heavy system. They have next to no kick as a result, even from the hip. You could easily land 3 shot bursts all on target out to 50-100m without having to make adjustments to firing.

-Damage too low. For the short ranges they are used in, all SMGs would be capable of doing just as much damage as battle rifles, due to their heavy calibre. It's just they have less penetration and velocity at range, but out to 25-50m 1 shot from a .45, a 9mm or even a 7.62 louge should be more than enough to kill. It has a lot of kinetic energy due to mass of the bullet and high caliber.

-Spread to high. Bullets do not spread that much at short range or even long range due to their high velocity, regardless of the weight of the round. There is not enough time in the air until about 100-150m (for low velocity pistol cartridges) at the minimum for wind resistance, air resistance, spin etc to make the bullet fly off where it was pointed.

-Single shot accuracy. Out to about 100-150m the single shot accuracy (with maybe the exception of the MAS38) of the SMGs should be dead on accurate. All soldiers zeroed their weapons before going into combat and there is little bullet drop until this range and thus the shots should be dead on accurate, plus as mentioned before the bullet does not get knocked off target at all, as it already reaches the target before environmental effects come into play.

-Recoil pattern. SMG's should not have the random recoil patterns they currently do. They do not jump everywhere - they stay on target for the most part in fully automatic. The MAS38 should have pretty much zero recoil firing fully automatic, same as the Thompson and the MP40. And the recoil pattern should not be random, but going slightly upwards and to the right (the ejection cycle on these guns is to the right and thus throws the weapon that way.)

As for the point of the MP40 being held incorrectly - not true. They hold the weapon right - left hand goes behind the magazine housing and that was how they were trained as holding the magazine in fully automatic fire could result in pulling it out slightly, resulting in misfeeds (bolt doesn't grab the next cartridge in the magazine and shove it into the chamber.) German soldiers hold it correct in game.

I am under the impression you want cool, which in Battleground Europe is generally associated with extreme realism that you can't find anywhere else. If that is what you want, then the 'cool' thing to do would be such changes mentioned. I for one have used all four different SMGs in game, and they do not whatsoever perform like the real thing. This is coming from a firearms trainer in the AAFC and also someone who has experience in historical weapons systems, including all four of the SMGs and several other weapons you'd find in Battleground Europe.

Edited September 7, 2012 by rule303

[fxmkorp]

As for the point of the MP40 being held incorrectly - not true. They hold the weapon right - left hand goes behind the magazine housing and that was how they were trained as holding the magazine in fully automatic fire could result in pulling it out slightly, resulting in misfeeds (bolt doesn't grab the next cartridge in the magazine and shove it into the chamber.) German soldiers hold it correct in game.

Not really, go check the topic on the heroes & generals forums about the way they hold the MP40 cuz they busted your argument, they change it 3 times.

There are training videos showing Germans soldiers holding with the left hand the magazine housing they were trained to do so and all combat footage pictures even on the front line 99% or 100% of the cases are holding the MP 40 by the magazine housing. ( if you have footage of they holding otherwise beyond the prone position please share)

The misconceptions is due to the post war investigators and historians that misinterpreted holding the MP 40 on the magazine which jammed the weapon instead of holding the magazine housing that makes part of the gun and probably even makes the feed more stable.

Edited September 7, 2012 by fxmkorp

[fxmkorp]

http://forum.heroesandgenerals.com/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=560&hilit=mp40&start=20

[gsc]

Gophur, tbh something did change w the mp40 some years ago.

After i started playing and for a while after i got access to the SMG, the mp40 became my favorite weapon, because i figured i could do basically everything with it:

i could snipe out to about 150-200m at the extreme ie. sniping EI off roofs or out of windows if i had to and took carefulo aim / tapping the trigger just once

i could clear a CP and hold my own up close and personal as well, so it was an allround weapon for me

I also remember reading the forums in that timeframe about how spray'n pray the french SMG was at that time, over and over again...

Then some things were adjusted / changed a few years back - the postings about the french smg being more like a shotgun built and operated by blind, uncoordinated preschool children disappeared - but the mp40 was no longer the allround weapon it used to be and it has been like this ever since...

If ou get lucky, lying down, full stamina, no bullets whizzing by you, no bombs going off anywhere near you etcetc, you get the first round where you aim at, most of the time it goes off into the wild blue yonder though - no more niping ei out of windows if you take care to aim and tap, no mor first shot goes where you aim at in general...ive missed prone EI when standing on top of them, aiming square at their back, tapping one round and it hits the floor next to the ei

[marcus33]

Tested offline:

-MP40 and Thompson have approximate same accuracy.

at 20m no difference

at 50m Thompson slightly more accurate (overall bullets closer grouped) but harder to use single shot and hence a few bullets landed out of target (mp40 all bullets within target)

100m and further not tested, unless you have a big screen with high resolution (which I dont) it's anyways down to luck to hit a target at that range, although MP40 sights are easier to to aim with (narrower sight).

-French smg more accurate than both MP40/Thompson at 50m, 20m again the same for all.

Tested in lying down, taking 5 seconds break before/after shot/aim.

Short burst only, always waited til sight was not moving when aiming.

If anyone wants me to i'll upload the screenshots but I feel you axis guys should do some testing and post it yourselves before claiming stuff .

[gsc]

The Animation of the weapon kicks in before the round leaves the barrel - the animation is not a result of the round leaving (or being generated at the tip and simulating the recoil) the barrel, it seems independent and randomized from rounds leaving the barrel (or being simulated...see above)

ie.

You press the trigger (mouse button), randomized animation starts a fraction of a second before round is fired / generated / leaves barrel - round goes wherever randomized recoil animation is pointing the weapon at at that moment...

You will not notice that in a controlled DEV test environment boresighting the weapon when its "fixed" ie recoil turned off and youre just going by the ammo file, the randomized X% dispersion simulating differing ammo qualities and overall accurracy - all would seem in order there i would guess

[marcus33]

The Animation of the weapon kicks in before the round leaves the barrel - the animation is not a result of the round leaving (or being generated at the tip and simulating the recoil) the barrel, it seems independent and randomized from rounds leaving the barrel (or being simulated...see above)

ie.

You press the trigger (mouse button), randomized animation starts a fraction of a second before round is fired / generated / leaves barrel - round goes wherever randomized recoil animation is pointing the weapon at at that moment...

You will not notice that in a controlled DEV test environment boresighting the weapon when its "fixed" ie recoil turned off and youre just going by the ammo file, the randomized X% dispersion simulating differing ammo qualities and overall accurracy - all would seem in order there i would guess

That seems a possibility, however I suppose it would be the same way it's being triggered on all smgs, not only the MP40.

So Thompson or French one should see some difference too but I haven't noticed it in game.

Notice too with 1.32 or 1.33 and server reliability (see lag etc) leading a target has become much more difficult and random. I mostly see that with rifles on 200m+ shots on moving target where the leading distance to the target seems to be never the exact same amount.

That could perceived as an accuracy issue with smg shots at longer distances too if the target is moving.

This animation though seems to be worth looking at, might be not an issue with smgs only, 88 has been reported to have higher dispersion and some tanks to have occasional 'off' shots too that should not occur.

[gsc]

Yeah, thats why im referring to "the weapon" in general, not just the MP40 in particular...

Doesnt matter if you go by the MP40, Thompson, MAS, whatnot, the first round should always go where you were aiming at, no matter if you fire single shot or full auto - the recoil / kickback is nothing more or less than the thrust generated by the expanding gasses in the barrel LEAVING the barrel once the bullet has cleared the barrel - once the bullet has cleared the barrel its independent of it and will not be influenced by barrel movement anymore...obviously

[fxmkorp]

The only thing that was change on smg were the dispersion animations according to CRS, has I said before in this topic and others I made about the same issue is that it could be a laggy animation or the iron sights might be way more displaced from the actual aiming position that the allied SMGs.

[rule303]

I always noticed that from the hip the Thompson groups it's shots a lot more closely than any other SMG's.

The MAS38 and the MP40 both need to be buffed. They are pieces of **** compared to the Tommy Gun. Worse sights, damage nowhere near as high, they disperse their shots more, their accuracy is worse, they recoil more.