Feedback - Gunsight Changes

[GOPHUR]

Please use this thread for feedback on the gunsight changes.

Gunsights:

The beta team under the direction of BLOO has been doing research on improving the gunsights in many of our vehicles. The first part of that work is complete and ready for testing. Our sincerest gratitude for the devotion these players have to making our game better. Thank you.

- Daimler Mk.I Main gun

- A13 Mk. II Main gun

- A15 Mk. II Main gun

- A15 MK. III Main gun

- Churchill Mk. III Main gun

- Churchill MK. VII Main gun

- Matilda II Main gun

- 6pdr ATG

-

- Panhard 178 Main gun

- R35 Main gun

- H39 Main gun

- S35 Main gun

- B1 bis Main gun

- B1 bis Hull gun

-

- M4A2 Sherman Main gun

- M4A3(76) Sherman Main gun

- M10 Tank Destroyer Main gun

- M1 57mm ATG

- M5A2 76mm ATG

- Stu.G. III Ausf. B Main gun

- Stu.G. III Ausf. G Main gun

-

-

[major0noob]

the us sights are hard to see, and if there's a shadow or dark spot down the sights the lines/numbers are err, overpowered by them.

i have to put my face to the screen just to see them.

[GOPHUR]

Would like more feedback on this issue from multiple players. DOC taking a look today.

[jon8798]

I like the French ones. Characters and lines are sharper, better defined. Just looks much more businesslike overall.

[GOPHUR]

Agree Jon.

There are 4 that we rolled back because they lost the ability of range finding.

[hchris]

Agree Jon.

There are 4 that we rolled back because they lost the ability of range finding.

Which ones? If you can remember I researched and coded all those new gunsights for you so maybe I can remember.

[dm79]

The Stug b's sights are off when you fire HE, looks like they don't match up, the shot goes to the right then down a little.

let me know if you don't see it and i will try and do a video of it.

[GOPHUR]

Which ones? If you can remember I researched and coded all those new gunsights for you so maybe I can remember.

HC!!!

w00t so great to see you. Yeah I didn't really agree with the roll back but the functionality loss was seen as important and I can agree there.

- pak38

- pak40

- 17pdr

- stuart

[GOPHUR]

The Stug b's sights are off when you fire HE, looks like they don't match up, the shot goes to the right then down a little.

let me know if you don't see it and i will try and do a video of it.

Looks OK to me. Maybe HChris will test it for us!

[DOC]

On level ground and perfectly stable ... tests fine. If you're not level and tank is rocking at all, results will vary.

[Sydney]

The Stug b's sights are off when you fire HE, looks like they don't match up, the shot goes to the right then down a little.

let me know if you don't see it and i will try and do a video of it.

I noticed this with the S35 last night. Low and to the right. Much worse inside of 200 meters, better out beyond.

[DOC]

all gunsights have some parralax error at short range because they are outside the axis of the main gun barrel, the shorter the range the more pronounced, the longer the range, the less pronounced, the further to the side (away) from the gun barrel the bigger the differance

[dm79]

From what i can see the HEAT round looks correct if i then fire the HE it looks off to left and down, so much so i have to move my aim point to get it to land right.

Will try and get a video or some screen shots together to show what I'm trying to say, out of interest i dont get it on the 4d with the same gun an ammo.

[dm79]

Just took a look at it again, it seems worse on the Stug b due to the zoom level, in fact all the guns shoot the same from the looks of it none are zeroed on the point of the vertical V and all seem to fly under the right of the aim point.

I have never looked at the flight of the shells much in the past and done it on feel, go higher if the landing shot is short and go lower if its long, now i have started looking at the flight and the aim point it all feels strange and not lined up. Should the shot land at the tip of the V at any range?

What is parralax?

[jg53]

Should the shot land at the tip of the V at any range?

What is parralax?

The gun barrel sits to the right of the optic. Think of it like a triangle.

Point A is the target

Point B is the gun

point C is the optic

In between the line B-C and the point A, there is some lateral distance between B-A (trajectory), and C-A (line of sight thru optic) until they reach point A and converge.

If you continue drawing past point A, the convergence point, the two lines will continue to drift farther and farther apart. You can see the same effect by setting a H87's convergence as low as it will go. The guns start spread out, converge at a point, cross, and spread back out further and further as they go.

So at some point (IDK where), the sight and trajectory converge laterally. Everything prior to that, the shot will land slightly right, every where past that, the shot will land slightly left.

There is also, in the case of StuG's a vertical offset between the gun and optic (optic is a periscope over the top of the vehicle), so there is the same issue at play on a vertical plane, but it can be accounted for and factored in to the range adjustments so it is only really noticed at very close ranges (<200m).

So to answer your questions. 1) Beyond a reasonable range (I'll say 200-300m or so), the elevation component of the trajectory should AVERAGE to the aiming point. The horizontal component will likely always vary, very slightly, as described above.

2) Parallax is basically what I described above. Wikipedia has a good description and especially this picture.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/10/Parallax_Example.svg

What you are experiencing between HEAT and HE and AP ammunition types is that they have different projectile weights, aerodynaimc profiles, and muzzle velocities. Thus, they have different trajectories.

The sight is likely calibrated for HEAT, so everything looks good for it. The HE and AP rounds have different trajectories. I don't know if the rats are capable of modeling a range-setting profile for each ammo type that changes when you change ammo??? That is what would be needed to get all 3 types to impact where the "range setting" is set at various ranges.

edit: You can see the same effect at very long ranges with many other guns. If the sight has only one setting, it is usually for AP, and HE will hit somewhere else, OR there will be dual settings that will account for HE and AP. OOR, the trajectories between the two ammo types are close enough you don't notice a shift (Tiger's main gun, for example).

It's probably less noticeable with the pz4D because the optic is much closer to the gun laterally, and on the same level vertically.

Edited December 24, 2014 by jg53

[dm79]

Thanks for taking the time to explain just need to get my head round i now. I knew about the sighting for heat and ap, he just never looked at where the round goes compared to the landing point.

What range are all the guns set to converge then?

[jg53]

a little visual courtesy of my majestic MS paint skills.

[DOC]

The only thing that can change from the same gun but with different ammo is the trajectory (which affects range up and down) none of the guns is capable of altering side to side (left or right) trajectory of different ammunition from the same gun.

[jg53]

Is it possible to have the range settings be specific to the selected ammo type?

Like the StuG 3b is set up for HEAT as it is currently. Could it be set up so that when you switch ammo types, the range setting changes to what that trajectory would be set for?

Such as:

Select HEAT

Range setting to 1000m

Select HE-- Range automatically corrects to 780m

Select AP-- Range automatically corrects to 830m

Select HEAT-- Range automatically corrects back to 1000m

I pulled those numbers out of thin air, but hopefully you get the jist of what I'm saying. The view angle would not change, it would just calculate the distance the current setting would get the currently selected ammo type.

[DOC]

no it isn't possible

well to be absolutely correct, anything is possible with enough time, money and manpower ... but what it would require is not available to us and I don't know if it ever will be

our gunsights don't adjust "magically" by ammo selection because the real ones didn't so that type of feature was never included in the game engine design as a feature, or even in terms of what would be needed to change it to support that feature

of course what this means is the game engine could be redesigned to do this but we're not in a position to redesign it in that manner at this time, although it's obvious why it would be a good (however unrealistic) idea

as it stands now this issue can be found in the "required skill to do well" chapter of what you need to be better than average at the game. This does make the game one of the more demanding (on the player) of the choices gamers have to make these days, it's original design was to be the most challenging shooter we thought we could get away with.

So I guess we succeeded on that point anyway. It used to be even harder in the early days.

Edited December 26, 2014 by DOC

[jg53]

Understood. I figured that would be the case. Not a high priority, was only curious.

I didn't intend to suggest any "magic". As you can see, 3 numbered drums and the index can be shifted up/down depending on ammo type. That's what I had in mind.

[louloup]

can i say i feel the new french gunsight very good. Congrats

[pachy]

can i say i feel the new french gunsight very good. Congrats

I've tested all the French sights I think confirm they seem to work properly. Congrats to the people involved

[GOPHUR]

Great. Thanks for the testing!

[Poogie]

well maybe the allied are just blind anyway. they couldn't hit a bear in the butt with a bat .