Rifle caliber weapons vs scout cars

[sascha]

KQUFqaaiNxo

So this is how my poor 232 got killed by EI this often.

This was the third attempt and starting from the furthest distance. Previous two were at pointblank (insta-flame after a few rounds) and at 40m - using the "origin-marker" from my own FRU as measurement.

Here's the 40m test:

bhMLJeG75d0

Couple of points here:

Seems to work reliably up to 40 or 50 meters. As you can see, my first shots at longer range only made the engine smoke white (radiator hit?), but I can't be sure if it was the distance or just me not hitting the sweet spot.

According to the info on the wwiionline-wiki, the rear hull of the 232 is 10mm thick @20°. Not sure if the LMG should penetrate this easily. If it can, I can see why it would flame the 232 (tracer ammo going through gasoline).

We also did some shooting on the Pan and the only kill-spot we could find after 10 minutes of hammering away at it were the driver slits on both sides. Weirdly enough, the MG34 killed the driver every time from point-blank, but the 98k did not. Which is kinda odd, considering that they both fire 8mm Mauser. Again: Could've been the rifle shooter not hitting the "sweet spot" - but he was at point-blank-range and it's kinda hard to miss the black slit from there.

*shrug*


S.

[lipton]

Was wondering what you were shooting at in the first video.

Sight picture is so crappy, I couldn't see the 232 lol

I got killed in a Vick the other day... by a rifle. Oh well... it happens

Edited June 24, 2016 by lipton

[sascha]

LOL.. yeah.. you really gotta watch the longer range clip in full screen... otherwise it's hard to see what I'm aiming at.

It also demonstrates the insanely overdone muzzle-flashes in this game. Not sure about the Bren, but the MG34 suffers from this just as much as the French LMG. I would guess the Bren is no better (haven't used it in a while). BAR is also quite horrible.

That said: I do wonder if a rifle caliber bullet should be able to do damage like that to an armor-plate at anything but pointblank. 10mm@20° is like, what? 12 or 13mm effectively? That's not phenomenal, but it ain't cardboard or sheet metal, either. After all: Vehicles like the 232, the Pan or the DAC were designed to keep rifle caliber bullets out. Which the Pan clearly seems to reflect in this game (kill spot is an opening in the armor) while the 232 doesn't.

And yes: I know that the Pan has higher "maximum" armor thickness. But that's about all I could find out about its armor - haven't found a table with detailed thicknesses/angles for specific areas of the vehicle.

S.

[Tigger6]

Someone's got a thread about this- all ground rifle weapons fire AP ammo, which is causing this. Some of the cruiser tanks can be killed by LMGs from point blank. I think I only spawned one of them once and got whacked by a LMG in 5 minutes so I did not try it ever again.

As for firing the same rounds- round velocity and thus energy depends on barrel as well and the rounds flying out from kar98 and MG34 have different velocities (go beta and check joules for hits). I think of all the rifles the Lee Enfield has highest armor penetration, but the Mas36 will penetrate 232 armor but you have to be right against it.

[kamel]

You're shooting at the rear engine louvers?

I suspect that the armour thickness you're listing is for the rear superstructure.

Engine louvers and vents are modeled at a thinner thickness than unperforated armour.

Just like the B1 Bis engine grill. Thinner than the 60mm side plate.

[sascha]

As for firing the same rounds- round velocity and thus energy depends on barrel as well and the rounds flying out from kar98 and MG34 have different velocities (go beta and check joules for hits). I think of all the rifles the Lee Enfield has highest armor penetration, but the Mas36 will penetrate 232 armor but you have to be right against it.

Kar 98k muzzle velocity: 760 m/s (2,493 ft/s)

MG34: 765 m/s (2,510 ft/s)(s.S. Patrone)

So virtually identical.

You're shooting at the rear engine louvers?

I think so. The lower panel on the rear has a little black circle at its center. Sweetspot is somewhere between that and the white, unit-"art" circle on the right rear fender.

Might be the louvered surface being more susceptible to damage.

S.

[Tigger6]

Kar 98k muzzle velocity: 760 m/s (2,493 ft/s)

MG34: 765 m/s (2,510 ft/s)(s.S. Patrone)

So virtually identical.

I think so. The lower panel on the rear has a little black circle at its center. Sweetspot is somewhere between that and the white, unit-"art" circle on the right rear fender.

Might be the louvered surface being more susceptible to damage.

S.

You presumably don't know if those are the actual coded values, and the actual velocities are that + something like a gaussian distribution. So if you fire 100 bullets, there is a chance that 5 of them will have high enough power to penetrate, if you fire 10 it's going to be most likely 0.

[GrAnit]

"Cartridge S.A. Ball .303 inch Mark VIIF" was approved in August 1916 and the nitro-cellulose version "Cartridge S.A. Ball .303 inch Mark VIIF.z" in September 1917. Both were shown in LoC Paragraph 19945 dated February 1918.

The case was the normal Berdan primed ball case with 0.6 grains of cap composition and the headstamp included the code "F" or "FZ". A green primer annulus was approved in 1918 but the Mark VIIF was no longer being manufactured by then.

The bullet was made from solid copper rod, bored out to receive a steel core weighing 65 to 70 grains. Total bullet weight was 155 grains and it was secured in the case by coning.

Propellant was 40 grains of Cordite MDT 5-2 with one wad or 40 grains of nitro-cellulose.

Velocity was about 2,450 fps.

For proof, 60% of bullets had to penetrate a 8mm plate at 175 yards and 80% had to penetrate a 7mm plate at 300 yards. The Mark VIIF was considered semi-armour piercing and in 1928 "F" became the code in general use to denote this class of ammunition, irrespective of calibre.

"Cartridge S.A. Ball .303 inch NC Mark VIIW.z" was approved to design RL 26918 in November 1917 and shown in LoC Paragraph 21354 dated November 1918. A Cordite version, "Cartridge S.A. Ball .303 inch Mark VIIW" was approved later. In 1927 the title was changed to "Cartridge S.A. Armour Piercing .303 inch W Mark I" (or "W Mark Iz") and the original design was superseded by DD/L/3879 in 1928 and DD/L/5906 for RAF "Red Label" ammunition.

The case was the normal Berdan primed ball case with 0.6 grains of cap composition and the headstamp included the code "VIIW" or "VIIWZ" until the end of 1927 and occassionally afterwards. Often in WWI the nitro-cellulose loaded rounds did not include the "Z" in the headstamp. A green primer annulus was approved in April 1918 and some production had the caps secured by burring. From 1928 the headstamp included the code "WI" or "WIZ".

The bullet had an envelope of cupro-nickel clad steel or gilding metal clad steel with a steel core in a lead sheath. It had one cannelure and weighed 174 grains, the core weighing 93 grains. the portion within the case was coated with beeswax or the case neck varnished.

Propellant was 37 grains of Cordite MDT 5-2 with one wad or 43 grains of nitro-cellulose.

Velocity was about 2,500 fps at a pressure of about 20.5 tsi..

For proof, 70% of bullets had to penetrate a 10mm plate at 100 yards range.

https://sites.google.com/site/britmilammo/-303-inch/-303-inch-armour-piercing

Edited June 25, 2016 by Granit

[sascha]

Thanks Granit. Even though that's the British .303 we're talking about here, not the French 7.5mm. Which seems to be a rather potent round from what I could find, but the French apparently did not seem to have issued AP as standard ammo.

Two bullet variations were tested for military use at the time, the 1924 C and 1924 D, the former being lighter than ***** 1924 D. The French Army chose to adopt the lighter ***** C ammunition for universal service in the MAS-36 and MAS-49 rifles as well as in the Mle 1924-29 machine rifle. The heavier ***** 1929 D featured a boat-tailed bullet and had limited specialized use . Common variations of the 7.5×54mm French military round are: armor-piercing (***** AP), tracers (***** A), incendiary (***** I), gallery practice and blank.

*shrug*

Seeing how relatively thin the rear plate seems to be, perhaps the standard ammo could indeed penetrate reliably here.

EDIT: LOL! So the french word for bullet ("b@lle") is considered dirty by this forum..? Geez...

Edited June 25, 2016 by sascha

[Tigger6]

Thanks Granit. Even though that's the British .303 we're talking about here, not the French 7.5mm. Which seems to be a rather potent round from what I could find, but the French apparently did not seem to have issued AP as standard ammo.

*shrug*

Seeing how relatively thin the rear plate seems to be, perhaps the standard ammo could indeed penetrate reliably here.

EDIT: LOL! So the french word for bullet ("b@lle") is considered dirty by this forum..? Geez...

Only if you are not pure in spirit. Though I have no idea what bad thing balle is??

[sascha]

Only if you are not pure in spirit. Though I have no idea what bad thing ***** is??

Neither do I. Although you writing it somehow went through, while in my quote, every instance of "*****" got censored. Bloody favoritism!!

And it happened again... WTF?

"*****"

"*****"

*****

*****

S.

[Tigger6]

Neither do I. Although you writing it somehow went through, while in my quote, every instance of "*****" got censored. Bloody favoritism!!

And it happened again... WTF?

"*****"

"*****"

*****

*****

S.

I think it must think you are in the USA and thus censor you. I can write whatever the fark I want!