Tier 1 ATG sinking DD?

[delems]

Since when did that change?

Tier 1 ATGs never been able to sink DDs?   When did this hidden change get implemented?

 

[imded]

News to me

 

[delems]

Heard spits can sink DDs too now;  what else can?  Where all these hidden changes coming from?

Really seem to be trying hard to ruin the last few players that ever play navy  
 

Staring to go from positive to negative; why so many secret changes to the navy?
 

Edited September 15, 2018 by delems

[Mosizlak]

5 hours ago, delems said:

Since when did that change?

Tier 1 ATGs never been able to sink DDs?   When did this hidden change get implemented?

 

Never used to happen...I remember unloading 3x full loadouts from a 17lber on a German DD and nothing lol. 

 

Mingus and I tried to replicate spits sinking DDs on the training server but couldn't. Stats say only 1 hackfire has gotten credit for sinking a DD this map. 

[delems]

It seems they sink them, not get kill credit on them.

ATG this AM sunk the DD in less than 30 seconds with a couple shots - I don't see any kill credits though.

 

Edited September 15, 2018 by delems

[Mosizlak]

Ugh... that totally blows. 

[TR6AL]

If Spit kills commander it might get kill , but I really doubt it can sink them .

 

[Merlin51]

7 hours ago, delems said:

Since when did that change?

Tier 1 ATGs never been able to sink DDs?   When did this hidden change get implemented?

 

Dont think you can, you could kill a gunner, which i think will give you credit for the kill no matter what sinks it afterwards.
Dont know where the ammo locker is but i dont think it's in the turrets to get set off and sink it due to fire.

Even shore guns cant sink a DD in 30 seconds and those are 88 and 90 mm guns

Ask @OLDZEKE if he can replicate

[OLDZEKE]

If you are referring to the 6 pounder then yes I believe so

 

[delems]

Yep - sunk it in 30 seconds, watched it myself.

Again, when did this change?  Never seen ATGs in tier 1 sink DDs.

Sure never seen an axis ATG in tier 1 sink and allied DD.

 

[OLDZEKE]

1 hour ago, delems said:

Yep - sunk it in 30 seconds, watched it myself.

Again, when did this change?  Never seen ATGs in tier 1 sink DDs.

Sure never seen an axis ATG in tier 1 sink and allied DD.

 

88/flak36 is tier0 atg and will sink DD, pak38 should be able too at close range.

[OLDZEKE]

Same as it's been since the HE/KE audits

[jwilly]

Ships sink because something lets water into their below-decks volume.

AFAIL, all of the damage functionality for the existing ship/boat models is above waterline.

The game's current interaction radius for ships/boats is not long enough for "plunging fire", i.e. rounds that could enter the ship above waterline then either explode within the ship and cause below-waterline hull breach, or just pass through the ship and out the other side below the waterline.

We've been told that the currently modeled aerial bombs all are thin-case, instant fuzed types, intended to maximize fragmentation. Among other things, that means they have no capability to penetrate a destroyer's or freighter's superstructure and topdeck and subsequently explode below the waterline.

Certainly there are lots of ways to set a ship or boat afire with hits above the waterline, but fire by itself is a very slow way to sink a vessel.

This is all to substantiate that the existing destroyer damage mechanics are pretty bad.

But, in the context of penetrating hits above waterline causing a destroyer to sink, almost any AT gun should be able to penetrate a destroyer hull, Typical hull thicknesses for both destroyers and freighters/transports were 0.5 inch  to 0.75 inch (roughly 12mm to 19mm). Gun splinter enclosures typically were no more than 0.5 inch. Superstructure elements typically were 0.25 inch or less. This was mild steel, not armor; in penetration terms, usual penetration figures could be multiplied by 1.5 to 2.

At close enough ranges, almost any T0-or-later weapon with an AP projectile would readily make holes in a destroyer and cause internal damage.

Edited September 16, 2018 by jwilly

[Hardlead]

I got a kill on a destroyer with an Axis ATR, yes 8mm AT rifle. (it did not sink)

It is reported here in the bug section.

[delems]

So, in summary, since the HE/KE audit, nothing can kill soft fleshy infantry anymore (mortars, HE, grenadiers, grenades); but everything can kill armored 400' destroyers... spits, ATGs, ATRs...........

Losing some faith here

 

Edited September 16, 2018 by delems

[blakeh]

I would be ok if ATGs can't kill DDs, but we need to be able to spawn some type of gun that can. 

Something i noticed earlier- could not seem to kill the crew on an FMB with rifle fire-- anyone else seeing this?  Maybe i was just bugged?

 

[texasjay]

I got a EDD kill for throwing a rock ,, wow , it the deadest weapon in war 

[delems]

Should be able to kill crew of FMB with rifle.

 

[delems]

*** Typical hull thicknesses for both destroyers and freighters/transports were 0.5 inch  to 0.75 inch (roughly 12mm to 19mm).

So, Pak 36 should be able to sink allied DDs?
 

[Merlin51]

5 hours ago, delems said:

So, in summary, since the HE/KE audit, nothing can kill soft fleshy infantry anymore (mortars, HE, grenadiers, grenades); but everything can kill armored 400' destroyers... spits, ATGs, ATRs...........

Losing some faith here

 

Soft Fleshy:
patience, the fleshy must learn the way of pain
Joking aside, it's kind of a big change in how infantry interacts with things
so not as quick and easy a thing as all of us wish it was.

400' Destroyers:
Well i actually once killed an FMB with a bedford.
Now all i did was literally crash land on it, so the game does award things sometimes for unknown reasons.
About all you can kill on a DD with a spitfire i think is the AAA gunners, but i dont think they count towards kills?
but sometimes scoring hands you out a freebee.

ATG's on the other hand, would in reality have little problem inflicting horrific damage upon any ship not resembling
the Yamato, who found themselves within effective firing range.
Most ATG's, even T0, would not find too much trouble in punching holes through 9mm to 19mm of mild steel or a glass bridge, etc.

In game presently, dont bother trying to unload with an MLE 34 or PAK36 or even a 2PDR, Even the MLE37 isnt going to scratch it, the DD
is a bit harder than reality

But a FLAK36, or PAK38 or 6PDR or 57MM or better will if within range (of penetration, not just hitting)
Of course the DD can sit with in tickle me elmo range of those units and kill them.
But DD's rolling up to enemy shorelines and harbors have always been vulnerable to the heavier ground guns.

 

2 hours ago, delems said:

Should be able to kill crew of FMB with rifle.

You can, just not the pilot.
You couldn't kill the pilot on any ship with a 155 at point blank
They always live to go down with the ship

 

1 minute ago, delems said:

So, Pak 36 should be able to sink allied DDs?

In reality?
Given enough rounds to fire, and a DD stupid enough to sit 200m off shore?
Yes, or cause a lot of damage anyways.
37mm makes small holes, but make enough of them and you got a water problem, plus what ever the round runs into after coming through the hull, and in the case of APHE, it would be like putting very large hand grenades inside the ship.
Would not be a good day for the ship.
Probably not phase the superstructure, but that starts not mattering much when you are full of hundreds of holes
and your crew is getting shredded and cant even start addressing the damage because little popgun keeps making nasty little holes.

As DD sits in game presently?
You probably wont really hurt them much with mle34 mle37 2pdr pak36
maybe kill the AAA guners, which scoring might give to you as a kill, DD will of course drive away rather unhappily.
I think the rest of the DD is too hard unless you could maybe get an extreme angle into the deck, which is doubtful, would need some funky terrain.

May or maynot break a gun tube, i dont know if those have same thresholds as ground guns, being much larger.

And dont think killing one of the main gunners happens, at least never has for me, they appear to be as armored as the hull.

[TR6AL]

On 9/16/2018 at 0:40 PM, delems said:

Should be able to kill crew of FMB with rifle.

 

Yes you can kill each position on an FMB with a rifle. Was tested .

Edited September 23, 2018 by tr6al

[jwilly]

On 9/16/2018 at 5:57 PM, delems said:

*** Typical hull thicknesses for both destroyers and freighters/transports were 0.5 inch  to 0.75 inch (roughly 12mm to 19mm).

So, Pak 36 should be able to sink allied DDs?
 

There's some difference between a realistic ship model and CRS's game models. Like, the latter appears to be about 0% the former.

However, in regard to the current model functionality:

CRS conveniently modeled critical in-reality-below-waterline functionality (boilers/engines, magazines) as above waterline.

What we don't know is whether these individual elements are either "armored" to some extent greater than realistic, or have a "damage joules threshold" above what a small caliber AP round can apply. I don't think CRS has ever discussed those details of how this very-quickly-created model works.