again brit tanks twice that of axis?

[delems]

Ok, reports again that brit flags have twice as many tanks as axis.. haven't done a check yet myself.

But why?  this is the 10th map in a row if true, how come brit flags get twice as much armor as axis?
 

[Merlin51]

When you go check, how many are NOT CS tanks?

[delems]

You just don't get it do you?
 

The CS tanks have a KD TWICE as good as any panzer.... TWICE.

 

[Merlin51]

1 minute ago, delems said:

You just don't get it do you?
 

The CS tanks have a KD TWICE as good as any panzer.... TWICE.

 

? they only shoot HE and smoke

You're talking about the like the matilda CS?
They should not have much of a K/D VS armor, except like maybe VS a 232?
You are seeing them penetrate PZIII's and STUG's and PZIV's?

[jwilly]

Delems, you're comparing the K/Ds of an infantry killer and an armor killer as if those roles are equal...?

Quote

brit flags have twice as many tanks as axis

Seems to me that for purposes of such a comparison, "tank" is a misleading category. Better would be "AFV primarily used for killing other AFVs". That'd exclude the CS tanks, but include the British ACs.

[delems]

ok, quick look at supply; infantry flags:

axis gets 15 LMGs?   french 25 and brits 20?  On average that is 50% more LMGs.

SMGs seem even

rifles, brit 218?  french 195 and axis 200 - how would brit get more rifles when they have the best bolt in game?

Armor for infantry flags looks pretty good at quick glance, b 24, g 27 f 23.

 

ARMOR flags: tanks.......

brits 72, french 64, german 49.

Now lets throw out all the 20mm stuff and armored cars...

brit 47, french 41, german 26....... the brits really need 81% more main tanks? (yes left CS in)

 

with regards to infantry mostly on par, but again allies all get 20 LMGs, axis 15.

Edited December 11, 2018 by delems

[delems]

*** you're comparing the K/Ds of an infantry killer and an armor killer

Of course I am.  Kinda nice to have twice as many tanks that can just sit and kill your infantry............  Isn't it?

Especially when a few of those tanks are nearly unkillable.

[delems]

Seems axis gets fewer LMGs because better weapon.  50% fewer as 50% better.

So, I'd guess allies get 1/10th the tactical bombers since they are 10x better (per stats) than axis bombers?

Shall I go count tactical bombers?
 

Edited December 11, 2018 by delems

[Merlin51]

Well I am not sure how you would work it out exactly?
Axis have their CS ability in their main AFV's cause they did
Brits had to build separate tanks, because they did not have the ammunition to outfit the mains as CS
But at the cost of not being able to engage enemy AFVs with them except something very light.

Also, is it possible they have higher KD vs infantry partly because they can not engage much else
and so will dedicate their time to doing only that?

Look at the 232
It is what I would expect in that it shows high kills of infantry, since that and trucks are what it is most suited to shooting.
It looks similar to what the matilda II CS is doing so far this campaign.

Stats wise, it seems both are attacking the things they are best suited to.

btw who ever smoked the matty II with the pak36 Nice!
 

[jwilly]

Right. The British require two tanks, each with limited functionality, to do two jobs...the Germans with a more sensible tank design are able to do both jobs with one tank.

Wherever that German tank is, it can handle either target-type. 

Either of the British tank-types has even odds that the type of target will show up that it can handle, or the type of target that it can't handle.

Doesn't seem like a disadvantage for the Germans. More the opposite.

[XOOM]

1 hour ago, jwilly said:

Right. The British require two tanks, each with limited functionality, to do two jobs...the Germans with a more sensible tank design are able to do both jobs with one tank.

Wherever that German tank is, it can handle either target-type. 

Either of the British tank-types has even odds that the type of target will show up that it can handle, or the type of target that it can't handle.

Doesn't seem like a disadvantage for the Germans. More the opposite.

Precisely. The TOE’s are following a balanced budgeting system according to the cost of the units.

These changes are in preparation for the 1.36 implementation.

[piska250]

4 hours ago, XOOM said:

Precisely. The TOE’s are following a balanced budgeting system according to the cost of the units.

These changes are in preparation for the 1.36 implementation.

Precisely. More variety of weapons IS an Advantage. I do not need to risk a full tank, a CS will do, if I only need to suppress an enemy inf position.

As an Axis infantry, a CS tank or whatever you want to call it, it is as dangerous as an usual tank.

With the same amount of Anti tank weapons you need to face a bigger amount of opponents.

You can't face a simple CS "tank" if you have no sapper o ATs at your disposal, that single, poor, lame CS becomes the king of the party.

Edited December 11, 2018 by piska250

[imded]

Delems, and yet the axis have won 8 out of the last 11 camps.

Now we can start talking about unfairness and numbers, etc.

End result is you won 8 camps. So your problem here is that you want it to come to 100% win at all times with equal quantities of stuff?

Game would not survive for very long. But maybe that is what you want to happen. Destroy the game but win no matter what.

 

 

Edited December 11, 2018 by imded

[simarauder]

All I really see is that the allies require 2 people for 1 job, I don't see it as an advantage, who's there driving all these tanks anyways Lmao.

[bersi]

you have to see it this way , viel Feind - viel Ehr

1 minute ago, simarauder said:

All I really see is that the allies require 2 people for 1 job, I don't see it as an advantage, who's there driving all these tanks anyways Lmao.

this

[piska250]

12 minutes ago, imded said:

Delems, and yet the axis have won 8 out of the last 11 camps.

Now we can start talking about unfairness and numbers, etc.

End result is you won 8 camps. So your problem here is that you want it to come to 100% win at all times with equal quantities of stuff?

Game would not survive for very long. But maybe that is what you want to happen. Destroy the game but win no matter what.

 

 

I could buy that but the problem you are addressing is a different one.

I'd accept a "we are aware of this and know there is an imbalance there but nowadays this is what the game needs. We will address and change this when possible" 

Than justifying it because of the versatility of the Panzers.

[delems]

*** You will very quickly see just how lame delem's grievance is. His CS tank shtick is getting rather old and stale, but i fear we havent heard the last of it. 

Terrible analysis on your part.  The 232 competes with the Viky and panny, not mattie CS.

Scout cars:

Viky + Panny = 1265 kills.

232 = 1164 kills.

 

Now look at light tanks:
Allied = 711

Axis = 886

 

Medium:

Allied = 1913

Axis = 1584

 

Heavy:
Allied = 1389

Axis = 0

 

Then, allies get CS tanks

Allied = 101 kills

 

I just don't get why brits get nearly double the tanks every map?  Just a question, enlighten me.

Edited December 12, 2018 by delems

[Merlin51]

1 hour ago, delems said:

Terrible analysis on your part.  The 232 competes with the Viky and panny, not mattie CS.

No, the 232 competes with the Matilda II CS also.
They share the same choice of targets, it does not matter a lot what the chassis looks like.

If you had a Maus and in the turret it only had quad MG42s, then it would only be an infantry support vehicle.
The biggest and maybe slowest one ever, definitely the most absurd but none the less, it would be a CS type of vehicle.
It might be kind of hard to kill, but it would still have 0 effectiveness VS anything but infantry and trucks.

PZIIc by the way is more or less in the same class as the 232, just less speed and more armor.

So you could toss all of the following into the same bucket so to speak

SdKfz 232
PZIIc
Vickers
Panhard (eh i guess, but it can kill some armor)
MatildaII CS
Churchill III CS
A15 Crusader CS

Now i am not saying that you do or do not have a point on the exact numbers
But all those listed units compete for the same target base, so you are going to see the ones that are derived from another platform
(Namely the british CS tanks) show up as extra.

If campaign history shows the numbers do not work, then it could be evaluated and lessened if need be, or extra PZIIcs added just for an example, etc
depending on what the campaigns showed.
But you will still find the CS tanks listed as "Extra"

If you just take an axe to the CS capacity in general, it harms the main force panzers too, when a guy needs a smoke round and finds he has none, or finds he has less HE and he really really needs some HE to kill the little green and brown ants crawling in his house.
(Yes yes, i know, the ants currently laugh at his HE, let them yuck it up, they wont be laughing shortly when their brains are splattering on the walls)

PS: I'd consider the R35 more suited at CS than the panhard, it has HE, a good number of them, and a good amount of MG rounds
and it is not terribly well suited for shooting other tanks because the gun is such low velocity.
Except of course that, No one is using it much

 

Edited December 12, 2018 by Merlin51

[Kilemall]

Actually, I have done an analysis of the spawnlists and, well, they seem odd to me.  Competing agendas and principles, some roles covered well, others not.

Most categorical weapon systems match up, more or less.

But the Brit armor list does jump out as being a bit overpowered.

The A13 IS a paper thin tank, but that 2lber makes it more like a light TD then an anti-inf weapon.

88 count low.

Axis has more engineers in armor brigades.

A13 armored brigade numbers ridiculous.

Main Matty numbers fine, but CS questionable IMO when matched up to IVD/IIIB numbers.

Spawnlist role overlap is fine, but I don't think the German list is quite up to snuff.

French armored brigade list is more powerful then German list too.  The inf brigades on the other hand are perfectly matched, those are good.

 

Ya I think 1 less Matty CS per brigade, about half A13s in armor and maybe more like 10 S35s for armor would be the easiest adjustment.

[Kilemall]

And I told you all the Matty CS would be an issue.  Yes helps it's gun just knocks down buildings, but ultimately it can camp hell out of inf and AT guns.

[jwilly]

57 minutes ago, Merlin51 said:

No, the 232 competes with the Matilda II CS also.
They share the same choice of targets, it does not matter a lot what the chassis looks like.

+1

[jwilly]

1 hour ago, Kilemall said:

...it can camp hell out of inf and AT guns.

As can all the other 75mm-gun AFVs...?

[BMBM]

The fundamental difference with this list is that each and every unit has been researched in detail using historical gov’t and manufacturer sources to establish a cost per unit in then-year dollars and all countries have an equal budget to spend, in general accordance with standard national TOE for the tier. Thus, the list reflects design and production factors such as engineering, machining, optics, armor, engines etc, stuff that yields better quality and, in general, better battlefield results. Quality costs, quality kills.

The TOE based brigades also reflect the national doctrine to some degree, eg disposition of infantry tanks, cavalry tanks etc. What we have in game right now is not final but subject to revision. The important thing here is that the list is now, for the first time in the game’s history, scientific and financially balanced - ie fair and fact-based - rather than whimsical or tit-for-tat.

The basic concession for gameplay is to give Germany an equal budget to the Allies, otherwise they’d be pounded into the ground pdq.

[mrgarand2]

No allies on to use them so what could have 3x the tanks 100 axis vs 5 allies ?

[Kilemall]

10 hours ago, jwilly said:

As can all the other 75mm-gun AFVs...?

Hmm not IIIBs, they don't have MG.  Not IVD, they are short-barrelled 50mm and their primary deal is they have HEAT and a turret and coax, making them the premier T0 Axis tank- but they are NOT equivalent as they don't have Matty armor.  Chars can camp good but the 75mm is effectively TD swing the hull in nature, and the Char is not as tough to take down, especially the short 47 turret.

Anything else 75mm+ is higher tiers.  The Matty CS issue is primarily a T0 one.

 

Its the armor that allows the worry-free camping, gives everything but AT capability and effectively doubles the opportunity Matty camped experience.

Which is fine, I have no problem with the BEF having the capability starting T0.  I do have a problem with the numbers, especially in conjunction with the A13 armor brigade numbers.