MS work around resupply

[Kilemall]

4 minutes ago, delems said:

Also, just though of something.

Even with the backline MS / warping / resupply.

It is still way better than before.

First, players have to do the work ... not some 2 second HC move order.   Players must drive, set MS and actually spawn.

Second, you can kill the backline MS, you can't undo the flag move.

So, even if we call this a 'bug' (I don't think it is at all), it is way better than warping flags.

And I would argue that a side that has overpop has the extra people to do these warp supply moves, an underpop side does not, their backs are against the wall vis-a-vis time utilization, brigade movement evened up that man-hour score.

 

Now then if overpop was driving in supply and it cost drive time to move, well then far less of an issue as more overpop was off doing extra things and that is earned advantage.

 

This warp resup thing skews back to overpop as they have the extras to move supply, the underpop doesn't have the brigade move to counter and has to take precious people to drive and move the supply, and likely won't survive long cause overpop gets enough ears to hear the incoming truck and go out and interdict.

[delems]

Why do you constantly harp on the over pop side?

Aren't the severe insane capture timers enough yet?

SD?

Isn't the defender spawning 5m from CP enough?

Or instant EWS and blinking AOs enough?

 

If over pop is the issue - then fix it; stop tinkering and ruining the rest of the game.

Edited April 19, 2019 by delems

[Merlin51]

2 hours ago, gtanner said:

Warping seems like a buggy exploit to begin with, though an exploit that everyone uses. This particular issue trivialises supply runs. 

I can't see a reason why warping still exists in the first place. In my opinion it should be fixed unless they are plans to make every CP you capture a spawnable, it's "features" like this that are near impossible to explain to new players.

Warping was never an intended feature, it is simply the simple RTB mechanic getting used in a creative way.
The game lets you despawn at any friendly spawnable facility, if you release the unit, it gets added to that facility, if the facility can accept it,
if not such as the case of a tank at a depot or a french rifle guy at a british depot, it gets routed back to where it came from.

To halt the warping = overstock aspect, code work would be required to run some kind of check like
IF ORIGIN = MS, return to parent pool on release, which should in theory still allow you to despawn at a depot or AB you own, and respawn without release but not allow you to pump units into it from an MS.

I don't code though, and that could be a lot easier for me to say than to actually do

[delems]

Both sides can do it equally, not an issue.

 

Completely removing warping would be an interesting thought though.

Would make attacking twice as hard as it is now imo.

[Merlin51]

Just now, delems said:

Both sides can do it equally, not an issue.

 

Completely removing warping would be an interesting thought though.

Would make attacking twice as hard as it is now imo.

It would have a probably unwelcome side effect of not allowing you to RTB away from origin or overstock
The origin part might be kind of OK, if you could at least run up to an AB or depot and get ammo.
But what we refer to as warping, is also the same way over stock works.

I think best you could probably go for without getting real complicated is checking of origin is MS, and if so then return to parent pool on release
instead of transfer to overstock?

[jamieg]

Ok lots of it “benefits you more than it benefits us” comments here.

lets put it into simple perspective.

it takes people who understand the mechanics to do what is being discussed. Delems understands how easy it is to do. I understand how easy it is to do.

The difference is getting people to do it. On the allied side we have still got a lot of people (experienced people) who aren’t even up to speed with 1.36 let alone how to Manipulate the new warp resupply. It’s always the same small group of people running in dfms’ 

if this “exploit” which it is is allowed to remain then everyone needs to be informed how to use it. 

Using the defence is using it so they have the unfair advantage is a complete BS answer and if you can’t see that your delusional. To run an effective dfms you have to have that ms placed in a town where the enemy is. Having done this many times axis (and allies cause we’re hunting them too when we can see the flow of enemy aren’t coming from cps or abs) are going to try and blow this.

what you did was support an attack by driving from a back line town to a frontline town (10km from the nearest enemy) and safely transfer the supply. There was 0 chance of your ms every being found or taken down. 

 

 the comment made about “ahh but you can have 200 Sherman’s “ is also not true because to transfer armour you physically have to drive the armour from a-b 10/15 mins drive, the inf warp technique takes 15 secs.

 

IMO the solution is either code it in to stop it or ensure every player knows how to do it.

 

lastly it will then dictate that unlike the axis we will have to ensure that our back line towns are of the same nationality as we cannot overstock from Brit -french- US etc so If  this stays and it now becomes a “who can overstock the most quickly” competition. Allied HC officers need to be briefed on the requirements for keeping the back lines linked.

 

 

Edited April 19, 2019 by jamieg

[jamieg]

18 minutes ago, Merlin51 said:

I think best you could probably go for without getting real complicated is checking of origin is MS, and if so then return to parent pool on release
instead of transfer to overstock?

I’m am by no means a coding expert but isn’t it seeing the origin once you have warped as from that cp and not the ms

[kazee]

Didnt Xoom say prior to 1.36 release there would be no fms overstock of inf from one town to another, only overstock of supply manually moved ?

If so, then what you are describing is def a bug and exploit

 

[jamieg]

Yes he did.

[kazee]

On 4/17/2019 at 5:23 PM, jamieg said:

I have found a way to resupply from an MS to a friendly towns garrison.

 

Jam, let me ask you this then.

When you "found" this way, i am guessing this was on a DO that your town was defending and the fms was from a backline town to that frontline under attack correct ?

If so, there might be a better way to create this option and remove the warp aspect of it. 

Please respond first then i will stand the option

[jamieg]

And on the offensive vs defensive benefit I was just having a think and bare with me if I’ve got this wrong. If the attacking team on a 1 vs 1 ab attack have used there backline town to completely overstock there frontline town and the defensive side have used there backline town and emptied its infantry into the defence and lose the town all the supply that’s has been moved up in defence will completely disappear.

the attackers will now over a 1 hr period have a full ab’s supply in the newly capped town.

The backline town that was used as defence supply which is now empty will now be the frontline town and will be on the normal 4.5 hrs ( with no rdp taken into account)  resupply timer ? 

This means just rinse and repeat with the push and you will always be 3.5 hrs ahead in supply.

[jamieg]

4 minutes ago, kazee said:

Jam, let me ask you this then.

When you "found" this way, i am guessing this was on a DO that your town was defending and the fms was from a backline town to that frontline under attack correct ?

If so, there might be a better way to create this option and remove the warp aspect of it. 

Please respond first then i will stand the option

Yes can’t remember name of town but I had run a dfms to town (it was french) stock was empty we had spawned in french and Hamza had switch the town that I had run the ms from to British so we lost the ms when I despawned to run another ms from the Brit supply it was seen that what I had despawned had ended up in the AB supply.

tested it again with a same ownership towns and found that it did the same.

[jamieg]

I don’t know if everyone here was in before brigades but I was and remember the days of setting up cutters.

 

my squad did it a few days ago. Before we placed AO we briefed HC that we would set up an ms in between the backline town and the frontline town to cut any defensive OPEL’s running in. This is physically stopping a moving visual thing which IMO is fair.

setting up an ms between a friendly back town and a friendly frontline town with a friendly fb between you and the enemy and then overstocking leaves no option for the enemy to cut or intercept and with today’s numbers your not going to get 10 guys to sit on an Opel as smgs and drive 10 k to resupply manually.

This exploit would allow you to empty the smgs from a backline town in 7.5 mins with 1 person.

[kazee]

Thanks for reply, ok yea then this whole aspect goes against attacking and trying to attrite a town for 1-2 hours if....

15 minutes ago, jamieg said:

 

This exploit would allow you to empty the smgs from a backline town in 7.5 mins with 1 person.

Now for the record I have no issues with setting a dfms from rear town to your frontline under attack, but I do have an issue with this warping nonsense, both defending and even from an attacking fms. Why should an inf be allowed to spawn at the fms, walk 5-10 feet, warp across 300+ meters of the battlefield and not risk the chance of getting kia. Makes zero sense to me.

How about this option: Aars under attack from Diest, you set a dfms from Lier west of Aars but...the inf already in Aars must walk/run to the dfms from Lier with rifle or whatever unit and then once at the dfms from Lier a window pops up stating they can swap rifle for a smg/lmg outta Lier supply list, but then must walk back through the battlefield into Aars itself with new weapon but no warping.

?

 

[jamieg]

I don’t know how quick something like this will be to implement. The problem i see now is this beta period needs to be ended at the soonest. The big bugs they have identified ,FB flipping and the mission from spawns where supply for 1 item has become empty and a new mission needs to be created are on the top of the list to be fixed then a “ real” campaign can be started.

as before mentioned I have 0 knowledge on coding but either they stop warping or prevent this over supply exploit or everyone is made aware of how to do it.

stopping warping nullifies a lot of the attacking options so I don’t see this as an option.

how easy it is to stop the warping despawning putting into garrison supply I have no idea but I’m sure we’ll get feedback from the rats shortly.

[Scking]

It’s not a priority at the moment.. It will be looked at and discussed internally. As jamieg said, we have some other priorities of stability so we can get out of beta. Then we will investigate this issue..

 

Our current list we see of getting out of beta right now is:

Players changing sides out of nowhere closing missions.

Last Weapon issue.

FB swapping issue.

Blowing FB doesn’t kill existing spawnable missions.

Can’t cap or chat if your town is captured and you counter attack without dying.

[aismov]

2 hours ago, jamieg said:

lastly it will then dictate that unlike the axis we will have to ensure that our back line towns are of the same nationality as we cannot overstock from Brit -french- US etc so If  this stays and it now becomes a “who can overstock the most quickly” competition. Allied HC officers need to be briefed on the requirements for keeping the back lines linked.

Great point you raise here which will just increase the headache of HC when the point was to make the life if HC easier.

2 hours ago, jamieg said:

I don’t know if everyone here was in before brigades but I was and remember the days of setting up cutters.

my squad did it a few days ago. Before we placed AO we briefed HC that we would set up an ms in between the backline town and the frontline town to cut any defensive OPEL’s running in. This is physically stopping a moving visual thing which IMO is fair.

setting up an ms between a friendly back town and a friendly frontline town with a friendly fb between you and the enemy and then overstocking leaves no option for the enemy to cut or intercept and with today’s numbers your not going to get 10 guys to sit on an Opel as smgs and drive 10 k to resupply manually.

This exploit would allow you to empty the smgs from a backline town in 7.5 mins with 1 person.

Bingo. Agree with ya 100%.

The fundamental difference (and gameplay disconnect) IMHO is the principle of interdictable supply. I can, if I am inclined to, set up interduction and cut enemy attempts to reinforce their position. I can also choose to ignore this aspect of the battle and let them through. Either way winning/losing is fundamentally in my/our hands. But with dFMS and warping, you cannot even if you drove yourself crazy interdict the supply since it instantaneously flies over the battlefield and pops out of a pile of logs and dirt outside of a town.

Now someone will say "but you can't just intercept the opel that sets up the FMS and interdict warping supply before it even starts." That is true in theory, but it becomes a question of magnitude and propability. In true manual resupply and interdiction if 10% of the enemy slips through that means they resupply 10% more units. If a player spawns 10 Opel and gets shot 9 times but the last one goes though, you've still allowed only 10% of the "resupply" to slip through. But now that Opel sets up a dFMS and 100% of the resupply that is warped in gets through every single time.

Its a question of magnitude and multipliers.

Manual resupply if a 1:1 multiplier.

FMS warping is a 1:infinity resupply since you only need one truck to somehow sneak through (and there always will be one) and your entire attrition/interdiction operation goes to waste.

 

Not to digress, but it is the same logic as why the Infantry FRU is such a mess... it is impossible to stop EVERY infantry that tries to sneak through a line and then proceeds to set up a spawn point that warps in supply over your defensive perimeter that you have no way in preventing.

[dustyhc]

FWIW.. Deep six warping of all varieties. My $0.02

[Kilemall]

50 minutes ago, delems said:

Why do you constantly harp on the over pop side?

Aren't the severe insane capture timers enough yet?

SD?

Isn't the defender spawning 5m from CP enough?

Or instant EWS and blinking AOs enough?

 

If over pop is the issue - then fix it; stop tinkering and ruining the rest of the game.

This isn't tinkering this is working to prevent even worse overpop/underpop disparities that would require more hours under more stringent rules to make a game of it.

[Kilemall]

2 hours ago, jamieg said:

And on the offensive vs defensive benefit I was just having a think and bare with me if I’ve got this wrong. If the attacking team on a 1 vs 1 ab attack have used there backline town to completely overstock there frontline town and the defensive side have used there backline town and emptied its infantry into the defence and lose the town all the supply that’s has been moved up in defence will completely disappear.

the attackers will now over a 1 hr period have a full ab’s supply in the newly capped town.

The backline town that was used as defence supply which is now empty will now be the frontline town and will be on the normal 4.5 hrs ( with no rdp taken into account)  resupply timer ? 

This means just rinse and repeat with the push and you will always be 3.5 hrs ahead in supply.

Exactly, let's call this the Honey Swarm Effect, after my thoroughly humiliating defeat saying 'we're committed gotta get Trier to get that supply' and the Allies were blown out of something like 12 towns in 6 hours after the fight.  Probably won't happen quite on that scale if for no other reason then the two town depth limit, but the principle is the same.

 

And you know, successful attackers or defenders/counterattackers should have a reward for their play, it's just that again it's going to be overpop guys who have the luxury to beat an underpop opponent to death without demonstrating superior play.

[aismov]

6 minutes ago, Kilemall said:

And you know, successful attackers or defenders/counterattackers should have a reward for their play, it's just that again it's going to be overpop guys who have the luxury to beat an underpop opponent to death without demonstrating superior play.

Yup it becomes a question of force multipliers again.

If you have a population advantage how massive of an advantage will 5 extra guys spending 10 minutes trucking in 4 SMGs to a town going to be? Probably not that much (though it doesn't hurt).

How massive of an advantage will be those same 5 guys being able to warp in 50 SMGs in that same 10 minutes. That is a total game changer.

And most important of all you can at least devote one guy in a plane to patrol the backline roads and try to strafe the trucks. You can't do anything about infantry warping in though the ether.

[Merlin51]

3 hours ago, jamieg said:

I’m am by no means a coding expert but isn’t it seeing the origin once you have warped as from that cp and not the ms

that is a possibility i guess?
You would have to run up, despawn without release, spawn again, then despawn and release to make that work though.
Might be ergonomically crappy enough that no one feels like doing it.
I am not sure how you might flag the player as From MS until he spawns from Parent Origin.

19 minutes ago, dustyhc said:

FWIW.. Deep six warping of all varieties. My $0.02

There is no such thing as warping per se
It is simply RTBing.
"Warping" is nothing more than spawn from location A and despawn to Location B and either be able to respawn at B or release the unit and add it to B

Drive tank from town A to town B on an attack, you capture town B
You despawn your tank at the AB, you just "warped"

Deepsix pretty much means you cant RTB anyplace but home and you cant Overstock

 

[aismov]

43 minutes ago, Merlin51 said:

Drive tank from town A to town B on an attack, you capture town B

You despawn your tank at the AB, you just "warped"

Deepsix pretty much means you cant RTB anyplace but home and you cant Overstock
 

I wouldn't call that warping since you physically drove to the other town, versus having someone else set up a mobile spawn and you traversing the same distance instantaneously (and in complete safety). You took the effort to physically cover 100% of the distance from town A to town B. I understand that technically its not "warping" but RTBing, but that gets into semantics vs. gameplay reality. If you can set up a dFMS that cover 98% of the distance from town A to town B, and all the infantry have to do is spawn into the FMS, run within 300 m of a friendly depot to "RTB" the unit, then that for all intensive purposes is warping.

Like others have said, I too warp all the time... its a competitive game and I'm not going to run into town a risk getting shot when I can safely warp into a CP we control and avoid all the ETs and EI that are trying to create a perimeter. Just like I wouldn't spend time running the risk of manually resupply a town when I can warp in the supply at 0 risk to being interdicted, and approximately 100,000% faster. Would be crazy to do that. But I think if we go down that road it will be for a poorer game.

[delems]

Both sides can do it - so there is no advantage / disadvantage to either side.

 

Also, saying to stock this way is 'fast' is very misleading.  It takes extra players and extra time.

It is WAY slower than moving a flag like the old TOE method.... (and no armor)

And it is still FAR slower than what a defender has to do to get supply to their town to hold.

 

Finally, do you really think 3 people are going to drive 10 min, just to RTB 2 SMGs to frontline town?

Spend 30 min combined game time for 2 SMGs?  When 1 defender drives same 10 min and can spawn entire backline town in support of front line defense?

Almost dumber than the ghastly, horrendous capture times we have right now.

Edited April 19, 2019 by delems

[aismov]

22 minutes ago, delems said:

Both sides can do it - so there is no advantage / disadvantage to either side.

 

Also, saying to stock this way is 'fast' is very misleading.  It takes extra players and extra time.

It is WAY slower than moving a flag like the old TOE method.... (and no armor)

And it is still FAR slower than what a defender has to do to get supply to their town to hold.

 

Finally, do you really think 3 people are going to drive 10 min, just to RTB 2 SMGs to frontline town?

Spend 30 min combined game time for 2 SMGs?  When 1 defender drives same 10 min and can spawn entire backline town in support of front line defense?

Almost dumber than the ghastly, horrendous capture times we have right now.

Well both sides actually aren't equal. Axis have huge advantage here since we do t have to worry about country. And it only gets harder with the Americans in the mix. And personally, on top of all that, it makes for a worse game experience. We have "attrition" in all but name only effectively.

Which is why the dFMS should get the boot as well. Attrition is attrition. You are attacking Town A, and not Town A + combined dFMS supply of every backline town.