Junkers 88-A4 Status Report

[Cornered Rats]

One of the most anticipated vehicles to enter WWII Online is nearing completion. Today I'd like to go into a little bit of detail about its current status, why it has taken a little longer, and what we are doing to help accelerate that timeline. This aircraft is significant in that it's the first ground-up aircraft that CRS 2.0 has built and let's just say there have been TONS of things to learn. Let's get right into it.

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[Obelix1]

 

[denisd]

Will the allies ever get even 1 strategic bomber???    I mean it's cool to see a new axis plane but why hasn't allied side  got even 1 yet??

[BMBM]

Yes. It will be some time though given the number of tasks ahead of it. 

[GrAnit]

Can you give us an idea of  the timeframe for introduction into the game?  Based on past timelines between announcement of new features and deployment in the game I am expecting it will take 6-12 months.  

Edited October 11, 2020 by GrAnit

[BMBM]

I’m not going to commit to anything. At the present I’m the only vehicle guy, and I have tons of priorities and a taxing full-time job.

[GrAnit]

Ok.. Thanks.  Really appreciate your work on the game!

[BMBM]

[stankyus]

In the mean time, is there a Allied T0 decent fast fighter plane that you can strap a bomb on like the 09 E4 Jabo thats in T0?  Did the D.520 have one or mb can you toss in the H81, I pretty sure they carried bombs. I know the US version had hardpoints for bombs.

[jwilly]

P38s did medium range bombing...they could carry a thousand pound bomb on the center mount, in place of the big drop tank.

We of course don't know if that capability, which was retrofitted to some other early Lightnings, would have been retrofitted to the French ones, because all of that would have been in the future as of June 1940. I'd think it'd be reasonable though to surmise yes.

[BMBM]

H81 didn’t carry bombs afaik

[stankyus]

8 hours ago, BMBM said:

H81 didn’t carry bombs afaik

Well, I am asking for a few reasons...

1. The past two RDP intercepts I was on, they RDP raid was ALL E4 jabos.

2. The Allies do not have a FB for T0 - wondering if there was a plane that would fill that role.  The E4 jabo after dropping the bomb turns into the top fighter in its tier... giving more fighters in the TO&E than the allies get... 

3. The trend we are seeing with the FBs being attached to the LW top tier fighters while the allies are just strapping bombs onto planes that cannot even come close to competing with the bombs on or anywhere near after they drop.

The G2 after the 190 jabo is really getting silly while we get a P39, H2C and H87 that have a real hard time competing with the F4... well they really dont compete.  Please look at from the birds eye view.. JU88 almost ready, G2 ready, 190 jabo.. and really nothing new for the allies that either boost performance or has been modelled.  Then to top it off, no AP ammo for the allies only. This does not promote the air war in total, it promotes allied air guys unsubbing. 4 wing our only air squad... have not seen them in the past 3 maps in any numbers in the air mb 1 or 2.

[BMBM]

1. That’s how it was conceived and used by the ErPro 210 back in 1940, albeit against radar stations, so that’s a nice touch right there. Tonnage per pilot is wastefully low however so that’s some relief in other sectors.

2. The Allies simply didn’t have an equivalent at the time and we won’t ahistorically invent one now. There is normally more than adequate supply of planes, less so of pilots.

3. There is disparity history won’t let us fix. As we progress with more platforms and ordnance, other disparities will be manifest. We’re working to get competitive Allied crates fixed up to oppose contemporary Axis a/c but there’s just myself and Hatch doing bulk jobs in that department for now, with several consecutive obstacles in the way. Much work is done but it still takes time to finish.

[stankyus]

5 minutes ago, BMBM said:

1. That’s how it was conceived and used by the ErPro 210 back in 1940, albeit against radar stations, so that’s a nice touch right there. Tonnage per pilot is wastefully low however so that’s some relief in other sectors.

2. The Allies simply didn’t have an equivalent at the time and we won’t ahistorically invent one now. There is normally more than adequate supply of planes, less so of pilots.

3. There is disparity history won’t let us fix. As we progress with more platforms and ordnance, other disparities will be manifest. We’re working to get competitive Allied crates fixed up to oppose contemporary Axis a/c but there’s just myself and Hatch doing bulk jobs in that department for now, with several consecutive obstacles in the way. Much work is done but it still takes time to finish.

Dont get me wrong BMBM, Im not throwing a fit - but sharing a concern.... albeit that the focus seems to be on the Axis air with little to do on the progress in total.  While I know you all are busy doing a crap ton of items, if you do one side, do the other side next.... mb? JU88, G2, StG44, StugH... just waiting for X... when it should be Ju88 - Allied X, Stg44 - Allied X, G2 - Allied X.. dont really care about the StugH but it did require time and resource that could have been getting "X" done for the allies.  You guys found resources and time to make sure that the Firefly and Achillies came with the Pz3L, P4M, and pz4H... Do you see WHY, I bring up this concern regardless of history but more inline of what you did with the turn out of the Firefly and Achillies?

[BMBM]

I share your concern and have come a long way to remedy the issues. There’s more in the works at a higher degree of completion than I’m at liberty to disclose.

[XOOM]

Right now from a project management perspective, I'm trying to punch through as many deliverables as I can to complete our Roadmap to the best of its ability @stankyus. We have some things coming to directly support the Allied Air Force. While those upcoming will not be as glorious as a brand new aircraft from the ground up, it will still do good things. 

As it pertains to a new, ground up aircraft... the Allies are next on that list. The Ju88 is sitting over 80%+ completion rate and a lot of work has been invested in it. That is the only reason from a project management view why that is receiving attention to get completed, it is not, in any way, intended to be construed as a slight to our valued Allied player base. I realize the optics as a hardcore dedicated Allied player as yourself would view this, and the ancy-ness involved, but I think it's also fair to say the Allies have received several new pieces of equipment over the last couple of years, and by no means is that community neglected.

We're also working to get bombers their load out selection mechanism worked out to add new varieties to supplement the air war, this isn't far away from being done at the current rate. 

So let's please not pretend big things aren't happening for the game, and finally the Air Force after a long draught. These are good days upon us. 

 

[vanapo]

I just resubbed recently and I am glad to see the game has been moving on noticeable in the meantime. Personally, I always said that I don't care as much about new planes & tanks as I do care about fixes & features. So I am really looking forward to the adjustable bomb loadouts for example. But I have to admit: Can't wait for the Ju88 as I am just a fan of that particular plane, much appreciated work guys!

Regarding the talking points:

1. The Heinkel 111 and the Junkers 88 (especially the early versions we got in game) were no strategic bombers in real life and the Heinkel does not offer much advantage over the DB7 in the RDP game either. It has higher bomb load but is much slower and far more vulnerable - that's a classic trade-off. I guess most Luftwaffe pilots would switch out the Heinkel for a DB7 at any tier. I would fore sure. My highest hope for the Ju88 is: it's probably going to be as good as the DB7 but arrive 1 or 2 tiers later so we don't have to bring the completely obsolete 111 H2 to the battlefield of 1943 anymore. If Allies get a real strategic bomber like the Handley Page Halifax, we would have nothing on the LW side even remotely close. If we would get an updated Heinkel to counter, it would still be slower, carry half the bombload, far less defensive armament und it would go down in flames way easier. But to be honest: I would still love to see that beast in game.

2. When you lament about axis getting "all the new planes" (which is: 1, in words: one) and allies don't, please take a look at which side offers way more planes than the other for the last 20 years and still does. I mean come on: the Luftwaffe has only 6 different planes in total, the allies got 12 (or  11 if you would go so far to take the babyhawk as hawk variant). And they still got twice as much different planes if you count all the variants as well. If CRS can even that out a bit without as much work by strapping a historically correct bomb onto an existent model that's s not exactly changing said equation very much. If that 1 new bomber or 1 bomb on an existing fighter are breaking the morale of the side which always had the broken damage model on half of its planes to profit from, I don't know what else to say about this.

3. Allies do have a fighter bomber in tier0, it's called Blenheim. I am just joking. It's called DB7. It can run from and even dogfight with tier0 German fighters. Try that with a Heinkel. Try to fight a DB7 with a Heinkel. And try to be as quick as a DB7 at bringing down factories with an E4.... We only bring E4s to Amiens so we can wipe the smirk from an allied pilot’s face which was expecting a slow and defenceless 111.

4. If you want more Tier 0 bombing capacity, I am completely on your side. But bomb loads for fighters were pitiful in that time period (looking at you again, Blenheim). Personally I would like to see a Henschel 123 which could resupply its small bomb load at FBs - with a comparable plane on the allied side of course, but that's another story for another day.

Again: Much appreciated work guys and I hope we are all welcoming new toys to play with and shoot at!

[stankyus]

18 hours ago, XOOM said:

Right now from a project management perspective, I'm trying to punch through as many deliverables as I can to complete our Roadmap to the best of its ability @stankyus. We have some things coming to directly support the Allied Air Force. While those upcoming will not be as glorious as a brand new aircraft from the ground up, it will still do good things. 

As it pertains to a new, ground up aircraft... the Allies are next on that list. The Ju88 is sitting over 80%+ completion rate and a lot of work has been invested in it. That is the only reason from a project management view why that is receiving attention to get completed, it is not, in any way, intended to be construed as a slight to our valued Allied player base. I realize the optics as a hardcore dedicated Allied player as yourself would view this, and the ancy-ness involved, but I think it's also fair to say the Allies have received several new pieces of equipment over the last couple of years, and by no means is that community neglected.

We're also working to get bombers their load out selection mechanism worked out to add new varieties to supplement the air war, this isn't far away from being done at the current rate. 

So let's please not pretend big things aren't happening for the game, and finally the Air Force after a long draught. These are good days upon us. 

 

There is a fine line as the consumer to address concerns and not have them misconstrued or misunderstood as some side biased / rose colored glasses / bash/ whine or complaint.  IF I am reading your response correctly and I might not be, but I am reading it as you couched my post as exactly that.  You know me Xoom, Ill tell it to you straight, no disrespect intended. So let me be a little more clear, I would also have the same concern if the the situation was on the other foot.  You bring up "Optics" , well that is exactly my concern.  I feel optics HAS to be a huge part of game management when introducing equipment. Just pushing out equipment as fast as you can and does have a real impact. Especially when they are top heavy and focused on one side.   The StG44 and 190Jabo in their tiers for instance entered without a competitor, one without anything reciprocal.  In their given class and tier they are as impactful as the introduction of the Tiger.  Now we are dealing with the plane introductions. My approach would have been as an example for illustrations purposes.  Ju88 enters with the earlier or later variant of the P38 with bombs.  Wellington with the G2. Instead we get a G2 and Ju88 with zero reciprocation.  I dont understand why, while the JU88 was a full build that instead of efforts into the G2 but an allied plane?

So in conclusion of the Optics, Ju88, G2, 190jabo (increased sides bomb load and far outclassed all other fighters), StG44, and StugH.  With nothing mentioned or even close to being ready to enter presents to the Allies that the equipment development resources are indeed not being treated equitably. That is NOT our fault, its a natural response.  It is not a bias thing either. 

As for the allied equipment, I never said you did NOT give the allies new equipment. Never once did I say that. You guys gave the Allies a great set with the Firefly and Achilies. They came with the a reciprocal Axis introduction of the P3N, P4H and P3L. That was an A+ way to introduce equipment in my book because both side got something and nobody felt as if their subs are paying for the other sides toys enhancing their enjoyment of the game. I feel as mentioning that was sidestepping my concern which is the negative optics of introducing equipment with them having a reciprocal introduction to the other side that fill some gap or are there to compete.  I feel as 99% of this type of post would disappear.

I hope that clarifies that this is not a bash, insult, or whine. I think you guys did a fantastic job in getting the game back on track and for that I salute you. I bring up this as a concern as it does impact the pb and I dont want to lose subs.

[fidd]

19 hours ago, vanapo said:

I just resubbed recently and I am glad to see the game has been moving on noticeable in the meantime. Personally, I always said that I don't care as much about new planes & tanks as I do care about fixes & features. So I am really looking forward to the adjustable bomb loadouts for example. But I have to admit: Can't wait for the Ju88 as I am just a fan of that particular plane, much appreciated work guys!

Regarding the talking points:

1. The Heinkel 111 and the Junkers 88 (especially the early versions we got in game) were no strategic bombers in real life and the Heinkel does not offer much advantage over the DB7 in the RDP game either. It has higher bomb load but is much slower and far more vulnerable - that's a classic trade-off. I guess most Luftwaffe pilots would switch out the Heinkel for a DB7 at any tier. I would fore sure. My highest hope for the Ju88 is: it's probably going to be as good as the DB7 but arrive 1 or 2 tiers later so we don't have to bring the completely obsolete 111 H2 to the battlefield of 1943 anymore. If Allies get a real strategic bomber like the Handley Page Halifax, we would have nothing on the LW side even remotely close. If we would get an updated Heinkel to counter, it would still be slower, carry half the bombload, far less defensive armament und it would go down in flames way easier. But to be honest: I would still love to see that beast in game.

2. When you lament about axis getting "all the new planes" (which is: 1, in words: one) and allies don't, please take a look at which side offers way more planes than the other for the last 20 years and still does. I mean come on: the Luftwaffe has only 6 different planes in total, the allies got 12 (or  11 if you would go so far to take the babyhawk as hawk variant). And they still got twice as much different planes if you count all the variants as well. If CRS can even that out a bit without as much work by strapping a historically correct bomb onto an existent model that's s not exactly changing said equation very much. If that 1 new bomber or 1 bomb on an existing fighter are breaking the morale of the side which always had the broken damage model on half of its planes to profit from, I don't know what else to say about this.

3. Allies do have a fighter bomber in tier0, it's called Blenheim. I am just joking. It's called DB7. It can run from and even dogfight with tier0 German fighters. Try that with a Heinkel. Try to fight a DB7 with a Heinkel. And try to be as quick as a DB7 at bringing down factories with an E4.... We only bring E4s to Amiens so we can wipe the smirk from an allied pilot’s face which was expecting a slow and defenceless 111.

4. If you want more Tier 0 bombing capacity, I am completely on your side. But bomb loads for fighters were pitiful in that time period (looking at you again, Blenheim). Personally I would like to see a Henschel 123 which could resupply its small bomb load at FBs - with a comparable plane on the allied side of course, but that's another story for another day.

 

Again: Much appreciated work guys and I hope we are all welcoming new toys to play with and shoot at!

Parity in type numbers is not required. A balance is. The allies will tend to use the best 50% or so aircraft types to do any job, assuming an equal travel-time and availability. If the best 50% falls more into RAF than French AF, then it's reasonable to suppose the distribution at AF's will be optimised for the RAF squadrons. However, there will be periods when the relative distances mean that (in this example) the French AF ones are preferentially used. Logically therefore the axis require sufficient extra types to equal the effectiveness of the combined allied types given the preceding; and that extra variety of types will lay somewhere between circa 30 and 70 %, to counter both the condition of preferential use of the top allied aircraft, but also not to over-power the lesser, but still statistically relevant use of 2nd order types.

So I'd estimate that if the allies have 12 types, the axis will require somewhere between 14 and 16 types, or thereabouts, but with reduced numbers of each type, to give a rough equality in effect. This is further complicated by the numbers of jabo aircraft which has FB destruction and AB bombing/subsequent CAP implications. Personally I'd like to see the bombing of FB vehicle spawns rolled-back to charges only, as this aids precamping of FB's with late tier armour, and breaks a basic rule of the game that it should generally be possible to at least spawn in some safety by preventing the loss of the FB veh spawn rear and side by air attack.