New factory placement

[undercova]

What about moving the existing factories apart from each other ?

Why ?

Because almost every campaign follows the same pattern. Rush / Push to the factories who have been in the same spots since i started this game.

Placing factories closer to the frontline and more to the edges of the map will make the campaign definetely more interesting.

Total amount of factories should be the same but just more spread out. Towns like Brussels or Rotterdam should only have 1 factory

 

The map shows only northern and center part. Of course towns in the south can be added too

 

P.S.: to the Moderators ... feel free to move this topic to "Game ideas / Suggestions" section of the forum. Thanks

[B2K]

That is in the eventual plan.  Though the goal is to move them closer to / to their locations in the real world.  Though timeframe is yet to be determined. 

[fidd]

The current British Factories in no way represent areas of production. Whitstable is a sleepy sea-side ex-fishing port/town with no industry worth the name. The centres of British war production could be said to be Coventry, Birmingham, Manchester, Clydeside, Liverpool, West London (more light engineering), Derby, Glasgow. The nearest war-production town to the current ones might be Rochester, where some aircraft production took place iirc.

[jwilly]

Old CRS said when the factory system was added that the sites were based on gameplay needs, i.e. flight time and sometimes ground capturability, rather than historical locations.

[fidd]

... which is basically CRS1 'making a virtue out of necessity' again. The map didn't extend far enough north or west or east  suffiiciently to map Birmingham, Berlin or Coventry. We need to move past what CRS1 said, if it's becoming a limitation to the game, this being just one example thereof, especially when the reason they said such things is becoming overtaken by other changes (such as the map extending, or now modelled equipment) rendering their dictums moot.

[B2K]

8 hours ago, fidd said:

The current British Factories in no way represent areas of production. Whitstable is a sleepy sea-side ex-fishing port/town with no industry worth the name. The centres of British war production could be said to be Coventry, Birmingham, Manchester, Clydeside, Liverpool, West London (more light engineering), Derby, Glasgow. The nearest war-production town to the current ones might be Rochester, where some aircraft production took place iirc.

and ??

10 hours ago, B2K said:

That is in the eventual plan.  Though the goal is to move them closer to / to their locations in the real world.  Though timeframe is yet to be determined. 

Can't help what the last dev team did.  Can only take what was left to us and move it forward.  

[jwilly]

Flight time to much farther factory centers has not...will not...go away as a gameplay marketability consideration, unless (1) CRS finds new customers who are fine with much longer bombing missions, or (2) some way (either extra speed, or time compression, or midair spawning, or something else) is utilized to shorten the much longer trips.

Edited December 14, 2020 by jwilly

[tater]

Factory bombing was/is sorta dumb.

A more sensible approach given the player pop, time to action, etc, would be to move to a tactical bombing approach. Supply depots that represent held, rear staging areas. Results can be more immediate, AND more localized. They can also be shorter time frame. The BDE resupply? Gone for the next X hours, their supply train was trashed.

Maybe some new mechanism could be added to allow a manual way to rebuild it, too... Like a "supply truck" that takes a normal truck model and adds a canvas top, or tarps, etc. If you drive some large number of them from a rear town with intact dumps to the one with those supply dumps wrecked, it rebuilds (something that could be done in 1 trip with a large convoy, or 1 person has to make many trips).

[fidd]

14 hours ago, B2K said:

and ??

Can't help what the last dev team did.  Can only take what was left to us and move it forward.  

I wasn't suggesting otherwise, or indeed that changing to these actual centres of wartime production was in any way a good idea for the game. I merely wanted indicate where the real ones were, and how hilarious Whitstable is as an RDP target for anyone who has had the misfortune of going there!

[jwrona]

On 12/14/2020 at 3:17 AM, undercova said:

I like the idea of spreading out factories... would prevent the "north cut" if there was one up near rotterdam, for SURE. Spreading them out will lead to FEWER big cuts and creates the stepping stones between one side of map and other. I know I'd play differently as HC if I knew I could go a few towns this way to get to a factory just to slow RDP down, and create a big-town link to which I can launch the next offensive (similar to the way I'll treat Lux, Liege, Bitburg, Turnhout, Antwerp, Bruss, Lille, Metz for now). 

As the map expands north and south... spreading the factories out is genius, even if you, say, upped to 11 factories per side, victory conditions still be capturing 9. Different routes to win when you add that to the 95% shenanigans. If I'm axis.... look, I got Lille, Valenciennes, Dunkirk, Calais... and now I need 2 more? I'll go cap a factory town in britain and be done. If I'm allied... I can wwin via Rottrdam, essen, dusseldorf, and not have to count my towns to 95% or go deal with that super far spread out bit at Frankfurt. 

My issue with this image, however... first factory for allies is 1 town off frontline. Off the bat you lose leuven and Bruss (2 links to leuven, then stack brigades and slam it a brussels)... well, my FR RDP is now X% slower and you're already at a disadvantage with half the supply on the map. Say there was 1 in Twerp S, or bruss SW (further off starting line), and 1 in Breda... now we're talking. 

So the idea is there, just fine tuning the rest. Nice suggestion!

Edited December 15, 2020 by jwrona

[undercova]

12 hours ago, jwrona said:

I like the idea of spreading out factories... would prevent the "north cut" if there was one up near rotterdam, for SURE. Spreading them out will lead to FEWER big cuts and creates the stepping stones between one side of map and other. I know I'd play differently as HC if I knew I could go a few towns this way to get to a factory just to slow RDP down, and create a big-town link to which I can launch the next offensive (similar to the way I'll treat Lux, Liege, Bitburg, Turnhout, Antwerp, Bruss, Lille, Metz for now). 

As the map expands north and south... spreading the factories out is genius, even if you, say, upped to 11 factories per side, victory conditions still be capturing 9. Different routes to win when you add that to the 95% shenanigans. If I'm axis.... look, I got Lille, Valenciennes, Dunkirk, Calais... and now I need 2 more? I'll go cap a factory town in britain and be done. If I'm allied... I can wwin via Rottrdam, essen, dusseldorf, and not have to count my towns to 95% or go deal with that super far spread out bit at Frankfurt. 

My issue with this image, however... first factory for allies is 1 town off frontline. Off the bat you lose leuven and Bruss (2 links to leuven, then stack brigades and slam it a brussels)... well, my FR RDP is now X% slower and you're already at a disadvantage with half the supply on the map. Say there was 1 in Twerp S, or bruss SW (further off starting line), and 1 in Breda... now we're talking. 

So the idea is there, just fine tuning the rest. Nice suggestion!

Factories

there are kinda like 2 options to make the campaign more interesting than it is atm

- change factory placement

- extend/expand the map

otherwise you will have the same map movements every campaign over and over again. we all know what axis go for. Brussels to Oost / Dunkerque and Sedan to Laon. there were only very few campaigns where axis pushed via northern part of the map to the factories.

 

the position of factories on that map was just an example. although it would be good to have very few near front line in key towns. i wouldnt mind an increase of the amount of factories too. 

- Britain: 15 factories (9 atm)

- France: 15 factories (9 atm)

- Germany: 15 factories (9 atm)

so every factory stands for 6,67% of total RDP production. placing like 3 factories up to 2 sectors near starting frontline sounds good imo

 

Possible factory locations with current ingame towns

- Britain: Hull / Portsmouth / Southampton / London / Whitstable / Ashford / Dover / Brighton

- France: Amiens / Abbeville / Dieppe / Reims / Sedan / St. Quentin / Valenciennes / Lille / Oostende / Dunkerque / Ghent / Antwerp / Brussels / Verdun

- Germany: Bitburg / Liege / Maastricht / Rotterdam / Monchengladbach / Dusseldorf / Essen / Duisburg / Koln / Koblenz / Frankfurt

It would be nice if towns that have a factory in it then would also get an icon for it like the docks/airfields get

What about adding new towns for Germany / Britain / France ? towns that are far behind the lines lik Hull ? Southampton ? Can add towns like Bremen ... Kassel ... Würzburg. this ofc leads to uncappable towns/factories so in the end like 25% of your factories are safe from being captured but still be damaged. therefore the victory conditions need to be updated or maybe just set to something like 95-98% of towns captured = you win (depends on the amount of towns that cant be captured)

Radar detection (AWS) near english coast E or NE of London should be limited to a range of like 4 sectors so the 111s have the chance to get near the island at all

 

New towns

new towns were added so far ... i like the area around Rotterdam ... with many towns and town parts. a lot less FBs to worry about. more action. participation of navy. still both navy deep port positions need to be adjusted or 1 deep port removed to prevent this insane camping events happening. Sadly the towns in the far SW of map are "useless" right now because the whole drive towards factories goes past them or they are behind them

 

Key development

in common you can say that the following options are key topics that need to be worked on to keep the whole game interesting for everyone

- new towns

- extend the "playable" map

- bugfixes

- new equipment for all branches

- loadouts / camo selection for vehicles/planes

- improve spawn/capping methods

- fix spawn delay

[jwrona]

You’re spot on dude. 
 

if you went the 15 factory route, and kept victory conditions at 9...

1) RDP becomes more spread out, and 6% per factory is a good clip (destroy 1 factory, add about 2 hours to resup).

2) you get to put them in different locations and provide a different “method to win.” I remember my first few campaigns from 167-171 watching this “race for laon vs. tiel. Same [censored] different day. If you only need 9... you can kinda piecemeal your way around the map and look at different objectives. Maybe allies crack straight at Germany balls out to take 9. Maybe we piece together rotterdam, etc and find a way to 9 before we get there. The thing to avoid is when you get to the typical “allied finish”: owning 95% of map, RDP is so knackered it’s pointless, and it becomes counting down towns... so although a 98% map makes sense, I imagine with FR factories gone or at 100% blasted, it wouldn’t be much fun to be fighting for that far south bit (however if it was extended as the “alternate approach” rather than from N... me gusta.

3) you can spread them out to “force” a fight in a piece of the map normally cut. 

[drkmouse]

the position of factories on that map was just an example. although it would be good to have very few near front line in key towns. i wouldnt mind an increase of the amount of factories too. 

- Britain: 15 factories (9 atm)

- France: 15 factories (9 atm)

- Germany: 15 factories (9 atm)

so every factory stands for 6,67% of total RDP production. placing like 3 factories up to 2 sectors near starting frontline sounds good imo

 

prob again is  axis has to bomb  2x the # of factories.. in this  set up  30 to 15  to get the same over all  rdp 

[undercova]

4 hours ago, drkmouse said:

the position of factories on that map was just an example. although it would be good to have very few near front line in key towns. i wouldnt mind an increase of the amount of factories too. 

- Britain: 15 factories (9 atm)

- France: 15 factories (9 atm)

- Germany: 15 factories (9 atm)

so every factory stands for 6,67% of total RDP production. placing like 3 factories up to 2 sectors near starting frontline sounds good imo

 

prob again is  axis has to bomb  2x the # of factories.. in this  set up  30 to 15  to get the same over all  rdp 

can be countered with slower repair timers and/or higher resupply timers

[drkmouse]

3 hours ago, undercova said:

can be countered with slower repair timers and/or higher resupply timers

stil porb   allies bomb  15 axis facoties   axis at  0%

axis  bombs all 15 french fctories alies still at  100%  for  1/2 ther army  adn with brit facoties  als,mot 50%  farther away at start of map, axis in a  hole 1st min of game

[undercova]

if towns like Bremen ... Würzburg and a few more get added the allies will have to fly longer too. Also remember that a 111 does 50% damage to a factory while an allied bomber "only" 21%

right now it takes an allied bomber pilot just about 15 mins to reach closest axis factory. very little compared to what it took in reality.

with the Ju88 being implemented "soon" axis will get a faster bomber too

[odonovan1]

As an alternative to strictly using factories for RDP, what about regional supply depots which are placeable by each side?  They could be similar to FBs in size, have AI defenses, and have defined requirements for their destruction.  They can initially be placed by each side's CinC, but can occasionally be moved, such as if the front starts moving toward one, although that would take the depot out of service for a period of time before it "reappeared" (was constructed) in its new location.  However, a certain number of them must, at all times, be within a set distance from the lines, to supply the frontline troops.  This would mean recon flights would be needed to locate enemy depots, followed by bombing missions to damage them or put them out of action for a certain amount of time.

 

Just a thought...

 

 

 

-Irish

 

[raptor34]

Personally, I miss RDP having more of an effect rather than less. This being said, I’m with tater that perhaps tactical targets need to be the focus with LOCAL results rather than RDP.
 

I’d almost argue for fewer factories that have longer effects on global supply, but they are indeed father away and difficult targets, making attacking them a time-consuming, challenging target. The same effect could also be created by leaving the factories in place but lowering the damage done by individual bombers (which is more historical), so even though RDP should have a major effect, it requires mass and time to do. 24 hours repair isn’t long enough. 
 

On the topic of different victory locations, I absolutely support the concept as presented. Again, perhaps if the factories are spread out and difficult to damage with single aircraft the same effect can be created again.

 

 

 

[raptor34]

On 12/14/2020 at 12:47 PM, tater said:

Factory bombing was/is sorta dumb.

A more sensible approach given the player pop, time to action, etc, would be to move to a tactical bombing approach. Supply depots that represent held, rear staging areas. Results can be more immediate, AND more localized. They can also be shorter time frame. The BDE resupply? Gone for the next X hours, their supply train was trashed.

Maybe some new mechanism could be added to allow a manual way to rebuild it, too... Like a "supply truck" that takes a normal truck model and adds a canvas top, or tarps, etc. If you drive some large number of them from a rear town with intact dumps to the one with those supply dumps wrecked, it rebuilds (something that could be done in 1 trip with a large convoy, or 1 person has to make many trips).

1+

[slamen]

On 1/12/2021 at 10:41 PM, raptor34 said:

Personally, I miss RDP having more of an effect rather than less.

 

 

On 12/14/2020 at 12:31 PM, jwilly said:

Flight time to much farther factory centers has not...will not...go away as a gameplay marketability consideration, unless (1) CRS finds new customers who are fine with much longer bombing missions, or (2) some way (either extra speed, or time compression, or midair spawning, or something else) is utilized to shorten the much longer trips.

or 3) the success of a long bombing mission was worth it.

I have seen many youtube vids where people fly in other flight sims on bombing missions that last for an hour+ just to drop bombs and RTB in a game that doesn't have a persistent world.  (Heck, I know of people who fly simulated airliners for 6-8+ per flight, but I digress)

I remember a time early in this game where RDP bombing factories down to 0% meant the other team doesn't get the new toys in time.

During that time, I remember flying with 8, 10, 15 other bomber pilots on long runs (from back line airfields) to perform these missions.

I also remember bomber pilots would fly bombers from England to forward airfields to replenish the stock of aircraft at forward airfields so other people in a different time zone could make more bombing runs, contributing to the cause.

Sadly, this type of game play has been removed as an unintended consequence to make sure 1 side didn't get screwed by the air guys.

I still fly factory missions, but I see why and understand why hardly anyone else does.  There isn't a perceived reward in the attempt or success.

 

 

 

 

[slamen]

One final note... One of the most exciting (for me) events in this game is flying intercept.

Take off... climb to altitude alone or with 1-2 then running after radar squares.

All of a sudden... 3

no 4

no 5 contacts up at 20k feet heading to England over the channel.

I get jumpy... gets heart pumping...

3 He-111s with 2 109s... O crap...

 

IF CRS can promote this type of game play...They will benefit ... and so will the player base

 

 

[undercova]

4 hours ago, slamen said:

 

or 3) the success of a long bombing mission was worth it.

I have seen many youtube vids where people fly in other flight sims on bombing missions that last for an hour+ just to drop bombs and RTB in a game that doesn't have a persistent world.  (Heck, I know of people who fly simulated airliners for 6-8+ per flight, but I digress)

I remember a time early in this game where RDP bombing factories down to 0% meant the other team doesn't get the new toys in time.

During that time, I remember flying with 8, 10, 15 other bomber pilots on long runs (from back line airfields) to perform these missions.

I also remember bomber pilots would fly bombers from England to forward airfields to replenish the stock of aircraft at forward airfields so other people in a different time zone could make more bombing runs, contributing to the cause.

Sadly, this type of game play has been removed as an unintended consequence to make sure 1 side didn't get screwed by the air guys.

I still fly factory missions, but I see why and understand why hardly anyone else does.  There isn't a perceived reward in the attempt or success.

 

 

 

 

Over the last few campaigns we have seen wrecked allied factories ... but still allies had tons of supply and never really ran out of supply. specially in the upper tiers where supply is insanely high anyway. sadly the RDP effect has been tuned down to non-existent unless you have multiple HC officers who keep hammering the same town/area for hours/days. but even then .. the towns behind it have full supply ... as a result of garrison supply.

A new spawning system like i proposed in January could have a much bigger and imminent effect => 

 

[Kilemall]

11 minutes ago, undercova said:

Over the last few campaigns we have seen wrecked allied factories ... but still allies had tons of supply and never really ran out of supply. specially in the upper tiers where supply is insanely high anyway. sadly the RDP effect has been tuned down to non-existent unless you have multiple HC officers who keep hammering the same town/area for hours/days. but even then .. the towns behind it have full supply ... as a result of garrison supply.

A new spawning system like i proposed in January could have a much bigger and imminent effect => 

 

Much simpler method is apply the strategic delay factor to the initial town ticket supply load, same as if it were 'lost' and replaced, just on the initial load clock instead of the resup clock.

Example say replacemet timer is 10 hours and capture/load trickle timer is 2 hours.  A 50% factories down would yield 15 hours resup units and 3 hours for new capture/backline town supply to arrive.

[adam1168]

3 hours ago, undercova said:

Over the last few campaigns we have seen wrecked allied factories ... but still allies had tons of supply and never really ran out of supply. specially in the upper tiers where supply is insanely high anyway. sadly the RDP effect has been tuned down to non-existent unless you have multiple HC officers who keep hammering the same town/area for hours/days. but even then .. the towns behind it have full supply ... as a result of garrison supply.

A new spawning system like i proposed in January could have a much bigger and imminent effect => 

 

your full of [censored] undercova, one of the reasons axis lost the last map is because the allies where AO,ing towns, and letting them run into the hours, when there RDP was better, also letting the axis HC stay static and just attriting garrisons down to no inf, at multiple points in the AO,s axis had more armour than infantry, good armour at that, to the point of no Infantry and 4gs haha, no disrespect but if you keep looking away from the facts.... and finding excuses,then nothing gets fixed right ?  ... or just try to railroad the current system alltogether and suggest a new system , without any real evidence that the RDP system makes no odds, when EVERYONE knows that RDP not work is BS, even without looking to deep its common sense, Less RDP = less resupply time = divisions running out before the side with less RDP ,UNLESS hc does its job and makes sure there is supply to back up, or flags in the chokepoints of the map, and THATS why the ALLIES have won the last 2 maps, also counter AO,ing a town youve just lost is silly , thats the ONLY tactic axis HC had last map ,especially if ALLIES are backing it with FLAGS, like HC is SUPPOSED to do ,think about it, a town is lost and the side switches to axis or allied, and you then counter AO it with the town next to it, not only are the captors of the town having a fresh  batch of supply, a instant counter AO starts draining the next towns supply, to a whole new garrison, with 30 or 40% less RDP supply, for the captors to then move a flag in 30 minute later, and outsupply starts all over again, with the RDP advantage, pfffft axis never learn lol

[adam1168]

On 12/28/2020 at 7:29 AM, odonovan1 said:

As an alternative to strictly using factories for RDP, what about regional supply depots which are placeable by each side?  They could be similar to FBs in size, have AI defenses, and have defined requirements for their destruction.  They can initially be placed by each side's CinC, but can occasionally be moved, such as if the front starts moving toward one, although that would take the depot out of service for a period of time before it "reappeared" (was constructed) in its new location.  However, a certain number of them must, at all times, be within a set distance from the lines, to supply the frontline troops.  This would mean recon flights would be needed to locate enemy depots, followed by bombing missions to damage them or put them out of action for a certain amount of time.

 

Just a thought...

 

 

 

-Irish

 

when you going to get back in game irish!

Just now, adam1168 said:

when you going to get back in game irish!

miss you