Trawler KIA?

[delems]

How come my Trawler keeps getting kills registered to it, but I'm not aflame or sunk?

Is killing one of the crew on the TW scored as a KIA?

[JAMES10]

The First recorded critical component damage is a Kill. Yes ANY gunner kill is a critical component damage. ONLY the First player to achieve a "critical component damage" to a unit is credited with a kill.

Cheers.

[delems]

Hmm, don't like it.

Some of my crew can die, and my ship should not be out of commission? (i.e. KIA)

I just lose some functionality.  I'm not dead.

When I'm on fire or sunk.... then I'm KIA as I see it.

Loss of crew.... no biggie -- have extra to take over --- or return to port for more sailors.

Also, completely different behavior with DD, TW, AK and PB....  they should all be consistent, yes?

Edited April 16, 2021 by delems

[JAMES10]

Hello delems, how are you?

36 minutes ago, delems said:

Hmm, don't like it.

Some of my crew can die, and my ship should not be out of commission? (i.e. KIA)

I just lose some functionality.  I'm not dead.

When I'm on fire or sunk.... then I'm KIA as I see it.

Loss of crew.... no biggie -- have extra to take over --- or return to port for more sailors.

Also, completely different behavior with DD, TW, AK and PB....  they should all be consistent, yes?

The methodology described has been in existence for quite a long time. I personally don't know when it was implemented but I suspect from day one.

Ships expose the functionality the greatest as they have more positions available to sustain critical component damage than any other unit.

As for out of commission the effect of the in-game kill ONLY effect the unit when it despawns as there is no forced despawns when something is "killed"

Cheers.

 

Edited April 16, 2021 by JAMES10

[KEMPI]

If you de-gun a DD's main gun it will register as a kill.

The trawler works in the same way, the crew is just more exposed.

[tater]

Can you shoot any DD gunners with a rifle, MG, etc?

[delems]

*** Can you shoot any DD gunners with a rifle, MG, etc?

You can shoot them, will do no damage.

 

*** If you de-gun a DD's main gun it will register as a kill.

I do not believe this is true-- have lost many guns and not been KIA.

Edited April 16, 2021 by delems

[Kidd27]

4 hours ago, delems said:

*** Can you shoot any DD gunners with a rifle, MG, etc?

You can shoot them, will do no damage.

 

*** If you de-gun a DD's main gun it will register as a kill.

I do not believe this is true-- have lost many guns and not been KIA.

you can still rtb a FMB with everyone ded. The kill gets registered on the killer side

[KEMPI]

1 hour ago, Kidd27 said:

you can still rtb a FMB with everyone ded. The kill gets registered on the killer side

This, 

 

7 hours ago, tater said:

Can you shoot any DD gunners with a rifle, MG, etc?

No but the main gun on an FMB can kill the gun one by one and disable it.

[tater]

6 hours ago, delems said:

You can shoot them, will do no damage.

On the one hand, wounded DD crew can be taken below, and replaced if needed—and all the guns have real crews substantially in excess of what is shown. On the other hand, if there is a visible guy at the gun (AA, whatever), he should be exactly as vulnerable to bullets as any other man, he's not magic.

I get my crews wiped out in an FMB or trawler, often by aircraft strafing.

Are aircraft guns magic, or are trawlers and FMBs vulnerable to fire that DDs are not?

This game pays a lot of attention to "damage model" WRT armor penetration, etc, but on ships it's far, far more complex than that.

[raptor34]

FMBs are bad for the whole "all crew wounded or KIA and you can still RTB" issue. While not directly related to the DD, if all crew-able positions get knocked out, it should be a kill for whoever did it. 

[Kidd27]

11 minutes ago, raptor34 said:

FMBs are bad for the whole "all crew wounded or KIA and you can still RTB" issue. While not directly related to the DD, if all crew-able positions get knocked out, it should be a kill for whoever did it. 

it is a kill for whomever did it. It doesnt show the FMB, but it shows in the stats of the killer

 

[atgman]

9 hours ago, tater said:

Can you shoot any DD gunners with a rifle, MG, etc?

Yes you can.

I learned a long time ago that you can kill the main gun gunner frontally with ATR if you shoot between the barrel and the shield. The part that is tarp/leather.

If the damage model has not been changed during the last 8-9 years it will still work.

I have also got kill on a DD with ATR, don't know what caused it. I did not target the gunners, but the hull.

My impression is that you can kill gunners on DDs with any weapon if they are exposed.

I fire on DDs and target gunners, but difficult to know the effect.

[delems]

*** you can still rtb a FMB with everyone ded. The kill gets registered on the killer side

This is not true.

FMBs have to be flamed or hull damage to register kill.

My crew dead does not report as I'm killed in my AAR when I RTB, I do it all the time.

The correct statement is every crew member can be dead on an FMB, and no kill is registered.

 

*** if all crew-able positions get knocked out, it should be a kill for whoever did it. 

I could see this as making sense, but it is not how it happens on todays FMB.

[Kilemall]

23 hours ago, raptor34 said:

FMBs are bad for the whole "all crew wounded or KIA and you can still RTB" issue. While not directly related to the DD, if all crew-able positions get knocked out, it should be a kill for whoever did it. 

More to the point crewmen are not stapled to one position.  All vehicle crew should be reassignable with gunnery being 1/3 as fast if the loader is killed/reassigned.  Aircrew should be reassignable,with the exception that only a copilot can replace the pilot, else bailout time.

[tater]

1 hour ago, Kilemall said:

More to the point crewmen are not stapled to one position.  All vehicle crew should be reassignable with gunnery being 1/3 as fast if the loader is killed/reassigned.  Aircrew should be reassignable,with the exception that only a copilot can replace the pilot, else bailout time.

Yeah, crewed unit damage models are universally awful. Real crews that can possibly switch roles could switch roles.

Most gun crews (ATG/AAA/anti-ship) were involved primarily with supplying the weapon with ammunition. A bucket brigade of shells from the ready locker (shipboard), truck, limber, whatever to the gun itself.

This is so fundamental I don't get why it was not abstracted in some way from the start. The game focuses on very detail hit locations, but the DMs are simply not good enough to support that fidelity in modeling, frankly. We'd honestly have better outcomes if the shots were not so precisely concerned with the physics, and simply consulted a damage table like a board game. That or fix the DMs as you suggest. If a gun crew actually had 6 men, then we need to know how the gun works. If it's electric, you need ONE man to fire it. So 5 guys can be killed, and it fires normally, but reloads VERY slowly (the gunner needs to get up, collect ammo, load, then get back to shooting). This can clearly be abstracted.

Course crews can also hide/duck/etc during high risk. An ATG crew can hit the dirt when strafed, and come right back to the gun, instead of literally being glued to it.

[raptor34]

46 minutes ago, tater said:

 

Course crews can also hide/duck/etc during high risk. An ATG crew can hit the dirt when strafed, and come right back to the gun, instead of literally being glued to it.

This. I highly recommend that anyone who enjoys mil-sim go and play Post Scriptum, even just to see what they do well. Using ATGs is not a big deal when you can take cover away from the gun when in danger. Forgotten Hope 2 even has a "take cover" command that allows the operator of a gun to take cover behind the shield. 

WW2OL needs a complete reworking of how ATGs are employed in order to give them the effectiveness that they should have. Even within the current model, it would be nice if the whole gun crew was modelled as AI followers so that the gun crew could at least defend themselves against small arms fire. At the very least, giving the current gun commander a rifle would be huge step up in defending the gun from EI. In the end, a WW2OL 2.0 rebuild should separate the crew from the vehicle like in any other FP simulator, allowing the crew to abandon the gun for cover if required. 

[tater]

42 minutes ago, raptor34 said:

WW2OL needs a complete reworking of how ATGs are employed in order to give them the effectiveness that they should have. Even within the current model, it would be nice if the whole gun crew was modelled as AI followers so that the gun crew could at least defend themselves against small arms fire. At the very least, giving the current gun commander a rifle would be huge step up in defending the gun from EI. In the end, a WW2OL 2.0 rebuild should separate the crew from the vehicle like in any other FP simulator, allowing the crew to abandon the gun for cover if required. 

ATGs, AAA, and all such gun systems on ships.

The DM is just wrong headed.

All gun crews should have a "seek cover" key making them less vulnerably to injury (again, ATG, AAA, and shipboard). The cover value for ATG/AAA needs to be pretty abstract, obviously, but for naval units, it's a function of that gun's particular splinter protection. If you are in a gun tub, just ducking has some impact, for example.

Obviously when seeking cover, the gun is not shooting, so it's a trade off for the player—survivability vs effectiveness.

 

[delems]

The point of the topic though, is you can kill all the crew on the PB or DD or AK, and no kill is registered.

But, if you kill a crewman on the TW, a kill is registered.

All ships should behave the same way..... consistency in play.

And they don't right now.

[vanapo]

That's why I "killed" a trawler by dropping SC50s on it...

[delems]

Same discussion, trawler is KIA way to easily.

It does not perform like other ships in the game.

[Mosizlak]

13 minutes ago, delems said:

Same discussion, trawler is KIA way to easily.

It does not perform like other ships in the game.

Didnt see this thread, thanks for bumping. 

[Mosizlak]

On 4/15/2021 at 11:51 PM, JAMES10 said:

The First recorded critical component damage is a Kill. Yes ANY gunner kill is a critical component damage. ONLY the First player to achieve a "critical component damage" to a unit is credited with a kill.

Cheers.

Not true at all for the FMB. 

Also, just got my trawler "killed". No crew even wounded, all guns worked, no fire, no flooding at all, yet still registered as a kill.