Tank supply imbalance

[undercova]

So when will this be fixed ?

Went onto both sides and wrote down all possible tank supply numbers

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1OtN0mK1AXhUBkah4qSSSBU0x8EAcvHTj_wVuZIuD97A/edit?usp=sharing

(some numbers are not available since they require a certain condition like a certain flag in a certain town with just 1 or 2 ABs)

 

Good tanks = Tanks + CS that appear in Tier 2+3 and have an appropriate gun/armor. They appear in bold letters in table. Tanks like Pz 3N/L or Stuart are not counted in since they are outdated.

 

1 AB - Garrison supply

UK - 25 tanks

FR - 24 tanks

US - 39 tanks   <======= almost 40% more tank supply for US compared to axis

GE - 28 tanks

2 AB - Garrison supply

UK - 41 tanks

FR - 37 tanks

US - 48 tanks   <======= almost 15-20% more tank supply for US compared to axis

GE - 41 tanks

2 AB - Armoured supply

US - 52 tanks   <======= 25% more tank supply for US compared to axis

GE - 41 tanks

 

[choad]

Good gawd the French are getting totally screwed! 

[undercova]

7 minutes ago, choad said:

Good gawd the French are getting totally screwed! 

not really

the French have pretty good tanks in that comparison. they dont have CS tanks. so their "good" tanks are mainly both Shermans and M10s while axis have StuH42 and the poorly armored IV G and H

StuH 42 has only 4 AP and 4 HEAT with AT capability. so you can kinda remove them from the "good tank" list for axis too. just increases the advantage of US supply more

Edited May 15, 2021 by undercova

[drkmouse]

18 hours ago, undercova said:

So when will this be fixed ?

Went onto both sides and wrote down all possible tank supply numbers

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1OtN0mK1AXhUBkah4qSSSBU0x8EAcvHTj_wVuZIuD97A/edit?usp=sharing

(some numbers are not available since they require a certain condition like a certain flag in a certain town with just 1 or 2 ABs)

 

Good tanks = Tanks + CS that appear in Tier 2+3 and have an appropriate gun/armor. They appear in bold letters in table. Tanks like Pz 3N/L or Stuart are not counted in since they are outdated.

 

1 AB - Garrison supply

UK - 25 tanks

FR - 24 tanks

US - 39 tanks   <======= almost 40% more tank supply for US compared to axis

GE - 28 tanks

2 AB - Garrison supply

UK - 41 tanks

FR - 37 tanks

US - 48 tanks   <======= almost 15-20% more tank supply for US compared to axis

GE - 41 tanks

2 AB - Armoured supply

US - 52 tanks   <======= 25% more tank supply for US compared to axis

GE - 41 tanks

 

been this way for a while ( yes i have been "whinig abou tit" for ahiwle  also th fench do need a bi tof love but not as much as axis needs vs teh us

[undercova]

6 minutes ago, drkmouse said:

been this way for a while ( yes i have been "whinig abou tit" for ahiwle  also th fench do need a bi tof love but not as much as axis needs vs teh us

leads me back to my demand from some time ago:

- garrisons only have light tanks

- infantry flags have mainly light and medium tanks + CS

- armoured flags have mainly medium and heavy tanks with just a few light tanks

- hq flags with some heavy tanks + CS

 

this would shift the whole gameplay to a new level imo. a much better gameplay. more healthy. then finally the additional flags on map would mean something again and can be used as attack force or spearhead. and HC can finally have something again they can work on/with

 

could be a great experiment for the next campaign. test this out with a new TOE setting. if it fails ... then it fails ... but at least you have tested it and see ppls reaction to it. also there is not much changes needed ... simply change the equipment list

Edited May 15, 2021 by undercova

[drkmouse]

41 minutes ago, undercova said:

leads me back to my demand from some time ago:

- garrisons only have light tanks

- infantry flags have mainly light and medium tanks + CS

- armoured flags have mainly medium and heavy tanks with just a few light tanks

- hq flags with some heavy tanks + CS

 

this would shift the whole gameplay to a new level imo. a much better gameplay. more healthy. then finally the additional flags on map would mean something again and can be used as attack force or spearhead. and HC can finally have something again they can work on/with

 

could be a great experiment for the next campaign. test this out with a new TOE setting. if it fails ... then it fails ... but at least you have tested it and see ppls reaction to it. also there is not much changes needed ... simply change the equipment list

oh i agree, and wuold put a stop to the gamming of the game by  only using the overpowerd flags ...

[choad]

2 hours ago, undercova said:

leads me back to my demand from some time ago:

- garrisons only have light tanks

- infantry flags have mainly light and medium tanks + CS

- armoured flags have mainly medium and heavy tanks with just a few light tanks

- hq flags with some heavy tanks + CS

Agree 1000%. 

Only issue is ... they would need to increase the flags a bit. You start to get into the territory of "i pay to have access to such and such" .... and i suspect that is why there is a glut of equipment atm.

Edited May 16, 2021 by choad

[undercova]

15 minutes ago, choad said:

Agree 1000%. 

Only issue is ... they would need to increase the flags a bit. You start to get into the territory of "i pay to have access to such and such" .... and i suspect that is why there is a glut of equipment atm.

every town has garrison supply anyway. so even f2p can spawn in light tanks then since they are mostly the only tanks they have access to anyway

[undercova]

flag supply is on top of it

[goreblimey]

As an exercise I worked out Sherman equivalents vs Pz4 equivalents using their historic K/D

An axis garrison has 50 Sherman equivalents

US garrison 63 PIVG equivalents

French garrison 30 PIVG equivalents

Now as we know the axis dont believe the p4 is as good as a sherman. So those US/Axis equivalents are probably not far off for balance. The us sherms have about 1.2 k/d over p4, so the Axis have in effect (50 x 1.2) 60 pzivg equivalents.

 

Just a numbers exercise but illustrates The French are so far behind its not funny 

Thank you for bringing this outrageous inbalance to notice.

 

Edited May 16, 2021 by goreblimey

[delems]

*** Now as we know the axis dont believe the p4 is as good as a sherman. So those US/Axis equivalents are probably not far off for balance. The us sherms have about 1.2 k/d over p4, so the Axis have in effect (50 x 1.2) 60 pzivg equivalents.

No, you have to divide........   maybe 42 equivelants by your math.

[goreblimey]

No were assuming a US sherman is 1.2 times better than a P4. Therefore to make them balanced you would give them 1.2 times as many.

The US Baby Sherms perform better than the French do probably because there are more big boys to do the heavy lifting. I'd say the French figure are more  representative of the 2 tanks equivalence.

Obviously the cross nation comparison is flawed in many ways however it does illustrate the poor state of French armour numbers. 

 

 

[delems]

Not sure what is so hard to see?

4 Tigers --- 12 s76 --- not balanced.

10 IVG/H --- 18 s75 --- not balanced.

The TDs cancel each other.

And who cares about 38t, IIIF and IVD, IIIH ?   Shouldn't even be in game this tier.

Dump them all - give DLC IIIN or IIIL maybe -- even them very weak.

Edited May 16, 2021 by delems

[drkmouse]

1 hour ago, delems said:

Not sure what is so hard to see?

4 Tigers --- 12 s76 --- not balanced.

10 IVG/H --- 18 s75 --- not balanced.

The TDs cancel each other.

And who cares about 38t, IIIF and IVD, IIIH ?   Shouldn't even be in game this tier.

Dump them all - give DLC IIIN or IIIL maybe -- even them very weak.

not hard to se, he just does not want to see it

[undercova]

Tiger vs. S76 K/D is like 1.6

so 7.5 Tigers are equal to 12 S76s

[delems]

So, with 4 Tigers, USA should have 6x s76 -- seems much more reasonable...  not 12.

Now, what about IVG/H and s75?

[stikyfingr]

10 hours ago, undercova said:

leads me back to my demand from some time ago:

- garrisons only have light tanks

- infantry flags have mainly light and medium tanks + CS

- armoured flags have mainly medium and heavy tanks with just a few light tanks

- hq flags with some heavy tanks + CS

 

Worth testing a campaign or 3. 

[stikyfingr]

The Pzr IV & M4 75mm look the worst number comparison. 80% more? Even with the best Axis tank users in them, 10 v 18? 

Btw. What's the StuH k/d like? Does anyone actually use that thing? It's pointless other than blowing a depot, very slowly. I'd take a 4D over that. 

 

[Kidd27]

equipment balance is based on the entire TOE of both sides. Not 1vs1 comparisons of numbers and ability. Cherry picking individual units to "prove" an imbalance holds no weight.

[choad]

So is that how we are arriving at supply numbers now? Comparing k/d and extrapolating from there to find true parity? Would.be an interesting exercise to apply that logic to other types of equipment and weapons.

[B2K]

8 hours ago, undercova said:

Tiger vs. S76 K/D is like 1.6

so 7.5 Tigers are equal to 12 S76s

Tiger has a ~1.7 K/d on the sherman 76:

          Unit                      | Name              | Kills On | Deaths By | K/D

• American M4A3   | Sherman 76    | 80          | 50             | 1.6
• British M4A3        | Sherman 76     | 12          | 6              | 2
• French M4A3       | Sherman 76    | 24           | 16            | 1.5

S76 K/D vs Tiger is only ~.6  

                    Unit              | Name | Kills On | Deaths By | K/D

• ( American) Panzer VI E | Tiger   | 50         | 80              | 0.63
• (British)       Panzer VI E | Tiger   |  6          | 12              | 0.5     
• (French)      Panzer VI E | Tiger   | 16         | 24              | 0.67

Problem is however that the tiger does not exist in a vacum.  Vs the M4A2 Sherman, the Tiger is sporting a K/D over 3 (for whatever reasons - a 7(+) vs brit Sherman).  Using some of the logic presented in this thread, there should be more Sherman's of the M4A2 variety.  Which is where the issues start to creep in when trying to compare unit -> unit directly and selectively ignore everything else.   

[BMBM]

53 minutes ago, choad said:

So is that how we are arriving at supply numbers now? Comparing k/d and extrapolating from there to find true parity?

 No. 

[drkmouse]

10 hours ago, B2K said:

Tiger has a ~1.7 K/d on the sherman 76:

          Unit                      | Name              | Kills On | Deaths By | K/D

• American M4A3   | Sherman 76    | 80          | 50             | 1.6
• British M4A3        | Sherman 76     | 12          | 6              | 2
• French M4A3       | Sherman 76    | 24           | 16            | 1.5

S76 K/D vs Tiger is only ~.6  

                    Unit              | Name | Kills On | Deaths By | K/D

• ( American) Panzer VI E | Tiger   | 50         | 80              | 0.63
• (British)       Panzer VI E | Tiger   |  6          | 12              | 0.5     
• (French)      Panzer VI E | Tiger   | 16         | 24              | 0.67

Problem is however that the tiger does not exist in a vacum.  Vs the M4A2 Sherman, the Tiger is sporting a K/D over 3 (for whatever reasons - a 7(+) vs brit Sherman).  Using some of the logic presented in this thread, there should be more Sherman's of the M4A2 variety.  Which is where the issues start to creep in when trying to compare unit -> unit directly and selectively ignore everything else.   

and campina  b4   tiger had a 1.1 kd vs  76.

[goreblimey]

6 minutes ago, drkmouse said:

and campina  b4   tiger had a 1.1 kd vs  76.

Given the choice which one would you choose ?

[undercova]

15 minutes ago, goreblimey said:

Given the choice which one would you choose ?

it shows the current and prior campaigns. so prior campaigns is an average and better to use. sometimes you lose ... sometimes you win. and the K/D then varies a lot

Edited May 17, 2021 by undercova