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Tank supply imbalance


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drkmouse
On 5/30/2021 at 12:55 PM, Scotsman said:

Does this frustrate me no end ? Yes it does - because with programming time the majority of these current ills could be history, I don’t drive the ship though... 

and  we do not  blaim you, we thnak you for your time and effort.

now about those  fully funcyional sheep... ;)

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Tell ya what bmbm. Put yourself where your words are. Pick town - you get 1 tiger. 3 axis will take s76, best of 7 matches - let's see who wins?

So when will this be fixed ? Went onto both sides and wrote down all possible tank supply numbers https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1OtN0mK1AXhUBkah4qSSSBU0x8EAcvHTj_wVuZIuD97A/edit?usp

*** Define the even fight. Define equal skill. Come on, you know exactly what this means. Take current spawn list - 12 s76 vrs 4 tigers. if 2 dm79 take out s76, and 2 dm79 take out tige

fidd
9 hours ago, delems said:

*** Does this frustrate me no end ? Yes it does - because with programming time the majority of these current ills 

The current ill is not about programming.

It is simply about unfair numbers, 12 to 4 and 18 to 10.

Easily fixed.

 

Maybe it needs to be said again:
an axis 3 AB town attacking a USA 1 AB town has less than 1 to 1 odds of top tanks.

a USA 3 AB town attacking an axis 1 AB town has over 4 to 1 odds of top tanks.

Which might have a point if those heavy tanks had the same performance, and TOE's were calculated on just numbers of the best tanks on each side. Note that I did not say the equally best. TOE's are NOT calculated this way, as you've been told many many times by both rats and players. TOE's are built to confer each nationality an equal chance of taking a town from the other. 

The only problem with this approach, is that it's calculated across the whole map, regardless of the terrain. So, the axis armoured Bde TOE's, being uniform, or "vanilla" are sub-optimal in some terrain, and better than should strictly be the case, in hilly terrain. Which is why I've been arguing for the axis to be split into 3 armees or Korps, with 3 different TOE's, one optimised for flat terrain one for intermediate, and one for hilly terrain. More nuanced TOE's for axis armoured Bde's are needed, however, this might require a raised number of Sh76's, rather than a lower one, as these might have to take on some axis Bde's with relatively large numbers of Panthers and Tigers.

In the meantime, accept the fact that TOE's are not established purely on tank v tank numbers or stats, but on the overall chances of a nation taking a town; and be thankful you too are not shackled to the useless corpse of the Arfr in tier 3+.

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delems
Posted (edited)

Did it ever occur to you, to think?

How come... on a Friday night; we have 1 AO and there is WBS active?

That is simply atrocious.  Down right disgusting.

Just maybe, maybe... something is wrong?

Edited by delems
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Kilemall
On 5/30/2021 at 11:17 AM, Scotsman said:

There are a lot of things that were started in this game with regards to penetration mechanics that were simply not finished. Face hardened vs RHA for example. The stubs are present for material hardness but no calculations were done. Nothing was ever done with spaced armor configurations for HEAT or KE. For that matter the game really doesn’t differentiate between capped or uncapped penetrators, projectile destabilization or a million other things I could go into. ‘Overmatch’ vs RHA is different than FHA. The plates act differently even if they are the same thickness...so you can’t simply go by a T-D ratio and have a properly working penetration mechanic. Material characteristics have to be there to do it properly. 
 

i’m just going to be semi-blunt here and state that not everything not everything in the public domain with regards to overmatch is correct. I worked on a KE overmatch missile system for decades and have access to years worth of modern test data against numerous targets that directly refutes some of what is being written here. That applies to both penetrators and non-penetrators, as well as many different kinds of penetrators. I can’t say much about that. We did test a huge variety of penetrators and non-penetrators including WWII ammo configurations. 
 

I’d LOVE to get the programmer time to redo it all the way it should have been done but that’s not going to happen anytime soon. Ask Xoom directly on that. 

I think players need to understand that we inherited this code ... we didn’t write it. I’m reluctant to apply too many band aides on top of band aides because the entire system needs to be redone imho. Anyone that really understood what needed to be modeled would have included FHA and differentiated between the various ammo types from the beginning. 
 

until/unless we can differentiate between AP, APC, APCBC correctly with the proper material science behind it and account for decap, projectile yaw and a million things the game has never accounted for - we are where we are. Is there a plan for a better model in a 2.0? Yes. 

As it is today overmatch as defined in the game only increases the mass and number of spall fragments. It does not reduce effective armor because (a) the data required to fo the calculation isn’t present currently and (b) modern testing has provided additional insight into the particular instance. I can tell you that the assumption that projectile t-d alone is a reliable overmatch indicator without additional data is not correct. 

I will also say that some of these modern test results surprised us all - and provided conclusively that what was once assumed to be true wasn’t true at all. 

 

Wow how did I miss THIS masterpiece?

I was hoping we were further along.  Heck, we were talking FHA at the first convention in 2005 I think.  That's when I got sold that you just wanted an accurate model in.

It will make some people cry and move dog bowls, but I just don't see this game being true to itself if it doesn't go there.

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Kilemall
On 5/30/2021 at 11:41 AM, dm79 said:

Thank you very much so like i originally said the tanks in game with sloped armor are having improved performance from the sloped fronts making them better amour wise than they were historically, while tanks with flat plates or with FHA get no benefit (German). On the flip side tanks using heat are also getting improved results vs spaced armor which also means the anti tank inf using zooks, piats, shreks and sappers  also getting better results than they would as well.

 

Keep in mind the brittle part of FHA once the joules go up.  Axis tank performance would go up in early tiers, but those FHA tanks can be hurting later on.

I think 2lbers end up being sadder at later tiers.

I think FHA should be in definitely, not sure about the weakened 1944 alloys bit.

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fidd
8 hours ago, delems said:

Did it ever occur to you, to think?

How come... on a Friday night; we have 1 AO and there is WBS active?

That is simply atrocious.  Down right disgusting.

Just maybe, maybe... something is wrong?

I imagine your endless and unremittingly negative posts are having an effect - or there was a rage-log on Friday.

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warspite
15 hours ago, delems said:

Did it ever occur to you, to think?

How come... on a Friday night; we have 1 AO and there is WBS active?

That is simply atrocious.  Down right disgusting.

Just maybe, maybe... something is wrong?

Surely then the Allies should have huge numbers of people playing?

Or maybe it could just be that the game is very, very old and doesn't appeal to gamers like it used to... 

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dm79
13 hours ago, Kilemall said:

Keep in mind the brittle part of FHA once the joules go up.  Axis tank performance would go up in early tiers, but those FHA tanks can be hurting later on.

I think 2lbers end up being sadder at later tiers.

I think FHA should be in definitely, not sure about the weakened 1944 alloys bit.

Yeah i am under no illusions its will move a lot of performance around, i think manufacture weakness should be ignored, it goes with things like engine failures, or breakdowns due to no spare parts, that takes Sim into the unfun zone. 

With the current equipment set in game i can see the Axis gaining the most at the moment from more accurate armour and ballistics.  

Just the overmatch alone would be huge.

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