French 25mm AA can sink axis DDs

[undercova]

French 25mm AA just sunk my DD. Enemy fired 2 mags into my side at a few hundred meters ... my ship instantly started to roll to that side and sunk within 30 secs

Was able to kill him too but was too late

I guess with that firepower we have an explanation why allied AA only needs 1 hit on axis planes to f*ck up the controls

[BMBM]

More details please. Angle, distance, elevation if any, shot placement. If you can replicate it, excellent. DD side plates are indeed impenetrable for the 25mm so something else is happening here. Were you just spawning in or had you sailed a bit? 

[atgman]

There is a thread somwhere here twhere I mention I got kill on DD with the 8mm ATR.

And for the 25mmATG, what is the DDs hull side made of, and what thickness?

My understanding is mild steel around 13mm/1/2".

[undercova]

14 hours ago, BMBM said:

More details please. Angle, distance, elevation if any, shot placement. If you can replicate it, excellent. DD side plates are indeed impenetrable for the 25mm so something else is happening here. Were you just spawning in or had you sailed a bit? 

sailed from Whitstable to that spot and he surprised me in the flank after 5-6 mins sailing. SE corner area of island Eastchurch.

he was at my 4 oclock position when he started firing.

200m range and almost at top of one of those coast line hills ... so like 10-15m higher than sea level.

[tater]

14 hours ago, BMBM said:

More details please. Angle, distance, elevation if any, shot placement. If you can replicate it, excellent. DD side plates are indeed impenetrable for the 25mm so something else is happening here. Were you just spawning in or had you sailed a bit? 

How thin are tin cans in ww2ol? USN DDs were what, 5/8 inch? (15mm)

[Mosizlak]

You can flame them with any RPAT or sapper charge if they beach themselves. 

The damage model, and physics model, are 100% fubar for DDs. 

5 inch guns firing sending the DD backwards at a stupid rate lol.  Imagine a battleship firing its broadside in this game, you'd have a log rolling contest. 

[BMBM]

Our DDs have ahistorically thick armor. I dare not say how much.

[tater]

2 hours ago, BMBM said:

Our DDs have ahistorically thick armor. I dare not say how much.

No wonder things I do to them are ineffective that I know should not be ineffective. Sink all of them, permanently. Can some ATG on every side in the game that can damage a DD get "ahistorical" protection from DDs, just to keep them offshore?

Really bizarre, they were called tin cans for a reason, after all.

[Mosizlak]

1 hour ago, tater said:

No wonder things I do to them are ineffective that I know should not be ineffective. Sink all of them, permanently. Can some ATG on every side in the game that can damage a DD get "ahistorical" protection from DDs, just to keep them offshore?

Really bizarre, they were called tin cans for a reason, after all.

It's crazy. 

Sometimes I've unloaded 3x 88 loadouts into a DD and nothing. Sometimes it sinks with 3 hits. I know where to shoot them, too. Not spraying the rounds all over. Same with 17lber. 

Then I can go and sink them with 1 RPAT round every time lol. 

The DDs needed an audit 12 seconds after they were released. 

[BMBM]

I *think* the DDs have been largely untouched since first release. Their durability would be a concession to gameplay, e.g. as Delems would go bonkers if he was strafed to death after a 4-hour sail.

It’s not invulnerable, just very chonky and schematic in its component/hitmap structure. Think if it as having a very competent damage control party. We also don’t have the effect of near bomb misses, where the whatchamacallit water-effect is as or nearly as devastating as direct hits.

[undercova]

3 hours ago, BMBM said:

I *think* the DDs have been largely untouched since first release. Their durability would be a concession to gameplay, e.g. as Delems would go bonkers if he was strafed to death after a 4-hour sail.

It’s not invulnerable, just very chonky and schematic in its component/hitmap structure. Think if it as having a very competent damage control party. We also don’t have the effect of near bomb misses, where the whatchamacallit water-effect is as or nearly as devastating as direct hits.

allied AP rounds from planes can already take out all crew members and guns .... so no difference

[Kidd27]

2 hours ago, undercova said:

allied AP rounds from planes can already take out all crew members and guns .... so no difference

ur a joke

[OLDZEKE]

5 hours ago, undercova said:

allied AP rounds from planes can already take out all crew members and guns .... so no difference

Our DD crew are invulnerable, the guns can be broken but crew don't die until the ship sinks

 

[undercova]

3 hours ago, Kidd27 said:

ur a joke

Lift a Spitfire or Hurricane or another allied plane ... strafe an axis DD ... and you will notice how with each pass less and less guns will be able to shoot. AP rounds can disable those guns a lot easier than HE rounds from axis planes

[tater]

9 hours ago, BMBM said:

I *think* the DDs have been largely untouched since first release. Their durability would be a concession to gameplay, e.g. as Delems would go bonkers if he was strafed to death after a 4-hour sail.

It’s not invulnerable, just very chonky and schematic in its component/hitmap structure. Think if it as having a very competent damage control party. We also don’t have the effect of near bomb misses, where the whatchamacallit water-effect is as or nearly as devastating as direct hits.

WW2OL faces a broad problem related to scale size. By that I mean units scale as the number of crew, and not linearly (as they should). Inf get wounded/killed in a decently realistic fashion. ATGs and tanks with just a few crew have individual crew harmed, but even with ATGs the DM starts to immediately fail.

Ie: ATG/AAAs actually had crews larger than represented in game. Training and familiarity meant that pretty much any crew could do any job, even if the crew normally assigned to a given role were more practiced at it. A gunner gets killed, someone else takes over, then there's 1 fewer guys humping ammo to the gun. The gun could literally function with 1-2 of the initial crew of 5-6, but at a much slower ROF. That's ignoring the fact that gun crew can seek cover if they need to. That's the start of DM fail in ww2ol, and it gets worse.

Tanks have crew, and individuals get killed. Dunno how realistic people swapping places inside a damaged tank is—I'd imagine instead of fighting the tank as if the crews were all in the IJA, suicidally—they would likely bail out (been discussed here a bunch). Maybe morale in crew vehicles should be a thing.

Then we get to the worst of the worst, naval units. A DD has a crew of what, 300? Every single gun should have multiple crew, including a host of loaders and guys passing ammo from the ready lockers, and to the lockers from the magazines. Loss of a single crew member? We need to account for ALL 300 crew. Seriously. The DM abstraction for naval units in the game is in the simplest terms garbage. Not even the armor, physical systems, etc—which is also lousy, the personnel level stuff. Loss of gun crews to strafing, etc? Yeah, should be a thing—but there are more men who can man the guns, and the crews should also (abstracted) duck behind their splinter protection as needed (that's what it is there for). Ships are not tanks, you're not crammed in a tiny space where you might not physically be able to change crew roles, a loader gets wounded, someone else can take over.