109G6 30mm issues

[Devildrivr]

 I fly the G6 a fair bit, I am sad i now have to wait until teir 3 to get in the cockpit now with the recent change, not necessarily wanting to make this particular thread all about that discussion, not that the G6 would change the course of the war, its not like it gives Axis any advantage, maybe that will change when the heavy bombers come in to play, but i think not being that it will be too late in the map to matter,  Main concern here is the 30mm rounds not doing enough or no damage to enemy aircraft. I see 30mm rounds appear to go right through the enemy plane without exploding or they are being absorbed into the plane and causing no damage. I have witnessed this over the course of the last few years and flying the G6 most of the time when it is available in game. I love the climb rate and how the plane handles and still prefer it over most others  and I do enjoy the challenge the plane has in going up against superior a/c but with that said there really seems to be something wrong with the 30mm gun when engaging air targets.   

Unless I am going super slow or  I am super close to an ea when i hit it that being 100 meters being close to cause damage.  I have been consistently hitting EA with the 30mm and the damage is nil to lack luster 90% of the time.  Hitting spitfires multiple times and can see the rounds exploding only to see the Spit and may other types of EA absorbed the rounds and fly away.  Is there a way i can confirm how many rounds are in fact hitting  a particular plane to get a better idea? 

 

I was hoping to narrow this down on the stats page found after the flight on my last sorties column but i think it is showing all total hits from both cannon and mg's?  is there anyway to differentiate between the 2 guns to confirm my findings? or do i need to use the cannon only to get an accurate read of the hits in the after flight Sorties page under (hits) column.  I thought that the HE round issue was fixed  to increase damage a few campaigns back? Does not seem to be the case here with the 30mm. Should be only 1 to 3 hits to take out most planes with a 30mm? no?  not getting anything close to this rate of damage/kill when i hit with the 30mm, most of the time i need to hit the plane a dozen or more times for anything close to kill or significant damage.

 

 I have tried everything from changing the conversion, not that i even know if this is making any difference being the guns are all in the nose, but i have tried multiple settings and have tried to hold the trigger down and lead the ac, still nothing, watch the plane fly through my 30mm stream and take no hits, can anyone provide a muzzle velocity of this gun,is it really that slow that you cant lead with it or the ark of the round lobs the round to consistently miss?  Is this why it is called a melon launcher?  anyone know what distance the 30mm will auto explode at , i would guess they blow between 300-500 yards? not that i see exploding rounds taking out any ea.   your thoughts please.

[vanapo]

18 minutes ago, devildrivr said:

Is there a way i can confirm how many rounds are in fact hitting  a particular plane to get a better idea?

Well ... you could fire only the 30mms. In the AAR you will see how many players you hit, in the stats you will see how many hits you scored.

I am completely agreeing on your assessment, as I stopped flying the g6 for that reason. Those HMGs are the only thing to kill stuff with. You can have like 3 big 30mm puffs on a P38 and it will still be faster than you.

The problem with the ammunition audit we had is that it corrected a lot of data around the velocity and delivered joules of every round. However, it changed nothing regarding the damage model. And this damage model doesn't work right for HE against plane surfaces as an HE shell won't do the structural damage it should as the airplane models just don't have that kind of damage. You only get a bit more drag and a bit less lift on. You won't get an actual hole in your wing simulated...

And I would say correcting the ammunition to realistic values made the results less realistic, because 30mm rounds are basically performing like 20mm rounds should: you normally need 3-4 hits to take down a fighter.

Edited November 22, 2021 by vanapo

[Mosizlak]

Video it, otherwise no one will believe you, then even when you video it, some still won't believe you. 

 

[BMBM]

Yeah the motorkanone should be a killer with 1-3 rounds sufficient to shred most components. For comparison, does the P39 37mm HE have the same problem? 

This is not my department really but I’ll have a look and see if I can offer an explanation.

The aircraft damage which was formerly pretty generic has been audited and corrected per type based on very good RL data, making most aircraft harder to down if you spread your shots around. The Spit/109 series are among the easiest to destroy, relatively speaking. The DM has internal and external components where you expect them to be, each with fail thresholds based on abovementioned data. Pound the elevator/aileron/wingroot/oxygen bottle/engine/fuel/ammo etc enough and it will fall off/fail/explode.

As for ammo and its behavior/effects I’ll have to defer to others in the team. 

[undercova]

it is the same problem we have with critical hits disappearing ... as I posted in my report some time ago

[halsey]

The p39 fires AP only

[vanapo]

On 11/22/2021 at 2:43 AM, vanapo said:

And this damage model doesn't work right for HE against plane surfaces as an HE shell won't do the structural damage it should as the airplane models just don't have that kind of damage. You only get a bit more drag and a bit less lift on. You won't get an actual hole in your wing simulated...

 

On 11/22/2021 at 8:17 AM, BMBM said:

has been audited and corrected per type based on very good RL data, making most aircraft harder to down if you spread your shots around.

Here we go.  HE hits don't accumulate to the aerodynamic problem they would on a real airplane. If you got a plane, especially a very nimble fighter plane, with very big holes scattered along its lift & control surfaces, it will be out of the fight and most probably go down very quickly.

With our damage model, you have to completely destroy a component to down the plane. With the low rate of fire of the MK, you can place one 30mm on the left wing, one on the right wing, one on the fuselage and one on  one rudder and the plane will still return home just fine. That's bogus. Take a look at 30mm ammo tests and tell me how this is supposed to be realistic? And don't get me started on dozens of 20mm hits not downing a plane.

HE is supposed to do structural damage. You don't have to hit the pilot or the engine to take down the plane. A few scattered hits across some of the plane's surfaces will result in the plane becoming structurally or aerodynamically unstable. This effect is very very very limited in ww2ol. You can pepper planes with HE all over the place, even the wooden parts of a hurricane, and it still flies on. That's why a single 50. is performing better than a single 20mm in game. It has a very high rate of fire and some penetration, increasing the chance of a pilot kill by a lot. And that's always your best bet.

[Mosizlak]

8 hours ago, undercova said:

it is the same problem we have with critical hits disappearing ... as I posted in my report some time ago

I had a stug on the hill at Mouzon. 4 times the first round I put right on a sherman didnt register. No hit sprite, not a short or long round, nothing. Just vanished into the sherman with no effect. 

[TheMouse]

On 11/22/2021 at 1:24 AM, devildrivr said:

 I fly the G6 a fair bit, I am sad i now have to wait until teir 3 to get in the cockpit now with the recent change, not necessarily wanting to make this particular thread all about that discussion, not that the G6 would change the course of the war, its not like it gives Axis any advantage, maybe that will change when the heavy bombers come in to play, but i think not being that it will be too late in the map to matter,  Main concern here is the 30mm rounds not doing enough or no damage to enemy aircraft. I see 30mm rounds appear to go right through the enemy plane without exploding or they are being absorbed into the plane and causing no damage. I have witnessed this over the course of the last few years and flying the G6 most of the time when it is available in game. I love the climb rate and how the plane handles and still prefer it over most others  and I do enjoy the challenge the plane has in going up against superior a/c but with that said there really seems to be something wrong with the 30mm gun when engaging air targets.   

Unless I am going super slow or  I am super close to an ea when i hit it that being 100 meters being close to cause damage.  I have been consistently hitting EA with the 30mm and the damage is nil to lack luster 90% of the time.  Hitting spitfires multiple times and can see the rounds exploding only to see the Spit and may other types of EA absorbed the rounds and fly away.  Is there a way i can confirm how many rounds are in fact hitting  a particular plane to get a better idea? 

 

I was hoping to narrow this down on the stats page found after the flight on my last sorties column but i think it is showing all total hits from both cannon and mg's?  is there anyway to differentiate between the 2 guns to confirm my findings? or do i need to use the cannon only to get an accurate read of the hits in the after flight Sorties page under (hits) column.  I thought that the HE round issue was fixed  to increase damage a few campaigns back? Does not seem to be the case here with the 30mm. Should be only 1 to 3 hits to take out most planes with a 30mm? no?  not getting anything close to this rate of damage/kill when i hit with the 30mm, most of the time i need to hit the plane a dozen or more times for anything close to kill or significant damage.

 

 I have tried everything from changing the conversion, not that i even know if this is making any difference being the guns are all in the nose, but i have tried multiple settings and have tried to hold the trigger down and lead the ac, still nothing, watch the plane fly through my 30mm stream and take no hits, can anyone provide a muzzle velocity of this gun,is it really that slow that you cant lead with it or the ark of the round lobs the round to consistently miss?  Is this why it is called a melon launcher?  anyone know what distance the 30mm will auto explode at , i would guess they blow between 300-500 yards? not that i see exploding rounds taking out any ea.   your thoughts please.

the convergence makes a difference even if it's in the nose  as shell arks  ...gravity

Edited November 23, 2021 by goneftp

[madrebel]

15 minutes ago, goneftp said:

the convergence makes a difference even if it's in the nose  as shell arks  ...gravity

it shouldn't. I'm happy to be wrong here but I've never run across anything suggesting that the nose and motor cannon mounts could be changed for convergence, or ever were. I'll concede maybe the cowl guns 'could' be changed but I doubt they ever were.

the motor cannon actually goes through the Engine case itself, there is no real ability to adjust that.

I've seen convergence charts for 190s, P47s, P51s, Spitfires (which had a minimum convergence of 180m btw) etc etc. I've never seen one for 109s, P38s, or any of the russian fighters with nose/centerline guns. if anyone has documents detailing how convergence was set for centerline guns I'd love to read it.

look at the four bolt plate for the cannon. that is hard fixed in place, i just don't see that being adjusted. the MGs ... 'maybe' but why? the offset distance is what, 2 feet. why bother?

Edited November 23, 2021 by madrebel

[TheMouse]

IIrc if you go back through the hanger, you'll see some stuff on it, and convergence settings..iirc if you set it right on canter line guns you get two bites of the cherry as it passes up through the piper and then back down again.

Edited November 23, 2021 by goneftp

[madrebel]

1 minute ago, goneftp said:

IIrc if you go back through the hanger, you'll see some stuff on it, and convergence settings..iirc if you set it right you get two bites of the cherry as it passes up through the piper and then back down again.

in game, yes. I'm talking about real life. I've never come across source data showing how to set convergence on a 109. by this i mean manuals or pilot references, etc. that data is easy to source for wing mounted weaponry for the germans, US, brits, etc.

 

[TheMouse]

5 minutes ago, madrebel said:

in game, yes. I'm talking about real life. I've never come across source data showing how to set convergence on a 109. by this i mean manuals or pilot references, etc. that data is easy to source for wing mounted weaponry for the germans, US, brits, etc.

 

nether have i, but then again, I've never looked, but I think it would be possible to do,  as you would need to be able to calibrate the gun  when the power egg was originally  fitted to the plane  

Edited November 23, 2021 by goneftp

[madrebel]

power egg isn't relevant to 109s though. afaik those were only relevant for bomber types.

[TheMouse]

190s defiantly had a power egg,  109s don't know never looked it up,  but that's not really relevant you'd still have the similar  gun calibration issues. weather the  whole engine and cowling  was shipped in as a unit from  the engine makers or  assembled at the airplane manufactures.

Edited November 23, 2021 by goneftp

[vanapo]

2 hours ago, goneftp said:

the convergence makes a difference

I don't understand how the convergence of an HE firing gun would have any influence on how much damage a hit is causing.

But scattered HE hits resulting in neglectable damage seems to be "working as intended" if I got BMBM right.

[BMBM]

6 hours ago, Mosizlak said:

I had a stug on the hill at Mouzon. 4 times the first round I put right on a sherman didnt register. No hit sprite, not a short or long round, nothing. Just vanished into the sherman with no effect. 

Ricochets tend to leave little trace, if that was  the case.

[TheMouse]

13 hours ago, vanapo said:

I don't understand how the convergence of an HE firing gun would have any influence on how much damage a hit is causing.

But scattered HE hits resulting in neglectable damage seems to be "working as intended" if I got BMBM right.

Apart from making it easier to aim  if you know at what range the bullet goes through the piper. and  the angle the projectile hits the target  might mean the difference between skipping off the target and a hit  but apart from that i wouldn't know, I have never looked into it.  

Edited November 24, 2021 by goneftp

[jester]

On 11/23/2021 at 12:57 AM, undercova said:

it is the same problem we have with critical hits disappearing ... as I posted in my report some time ago

This

[vanapo]

On 11/24/2021 at 9:15 AM, goneftp said:

the angle the projectile hits the target  might mean the difference between skipping off the target and a hit  but apart from that i wouldn't know,

Even if possible:

A: setting your centerline HE Minengeschoss gun to a convergence of 500 meters and putting your crosshair on the target

B: setting your convergence to 0 and aiming high enough to hit the target 500 meters away

-> your impact angle will be exactly the same. It's either so shallow the fuze can't detonate or when it does, the angle at which it did won't really matter.

On 11/24/2021 at 5:15 PM, jester said:

it is the same problem we have with critical hits disappearing

It is seemingly not. As the hits are not disappearing, they are clearly shown, the AAR shows hits, it's just that those hits won't cause serious damage. Which is apparently working as intended.

Edited November 25, 2021 by vanapo

[TheMouse]

23 hours ago, vanapo said:

Even if possible:

A: setting your centerline HE Minengeschoss gun to a convergence of 500 meters and putting your crosshair on the target

B: setting your convergence to 0 and aiming high enough to hit the target 500 meters away

-> your impact angle will be exactly the same. It's either so shallow the fuze can't detonate or when it does, the angle at which it did won't really matter.

 

yes,  that's true the bullet itself doesn't change directory,  however  the vertical  ark passes through the crosshair twice and were it does that and the angle it does it depends on were the vertical convergence is set. 

 

here's an example  of the bf 109 f at 400 m

 

Edited November 26, 2021 by goneftp

[stankyus]

On 11/26/2021 at 2:24 AM, goneftp said:

yes,  that's true the bullet itself doesn't change directory,  however  the vertical  ark passes through the crosshair twice and were it does that and the angle it does it depends on were the vertical convergence is set. 

 

here's an example  of the bf 109 f at 400 m

 

This is like shooting through a scope, the ballistic arch hits the bullseye twice. If you know your ballistics for the bullet you can site your riffle in for 400 yards shooting at a target 50 yards from you. Makes seeing your sighting rounds for adjustments much easier. The rest is windage.

[greyman]

109 G6

[jester]

On 11/25/2021 at 12:56 PM, vanapo said:

It is seemingly not. As the hits are not disappearing, they are clearly shown, the AAR shows hits, it's just that those hits won't cause serious damage. Which is apparently working as intended.

The AAR will show hits. There's just some form of calculation or thinking that's simply not happening with regards to those hits. Pretty evident reporting of this from player perspective throughout the branches.