HT numbers.

[delems]

idk, 15 USA 75mm HTs vrs 10 axis 37mm HTs doesn't seem right to me?

Sure those numbers right?

[jwilly]

My recollection is that the PaK 36 3.7cm had about the same armor penetration as the M1897A4 75mm. Maybe even better. Certainly the trajectory is much flatter.

The M1897A4 was an HE lobber pressed into service as an AT gun...a role for which it was not well suited due to its very low muzzle velocity and the bleh performance of the US AP round for it.

The French used the same gun in towed form with (small numbers of) tungsten core APDS shells toward the end of the 1940 fighting, and got outstanding performance from that combination. And, the Germans used the guns they captured with HEAT shells, mostly in Russia, and got pretty good performance from them. But with ordinary AP shells, it wasn't an impressive weapon.

[Kidd27]

21 minutes ago, delems said:

idk, 15 USA 75mm HTs vrs 10 axis 37mm HTs doesn't seem right to me?

Sure those numbers right?

The only numbers that can used in parity are those of identical units like the bofor or the Naval game, trucks...

Edited December 15, 2021 by Kidd27

[delems]

*** The only numbers that can used in parity are those of identical units like the bofor or the Naval game, trucks...

No, gear doesn't have to be 100% same to be basically in parity.

But giving one side 100% more tanks and 50% more ATG HTs isn't parity, period.

[OHM]

The HT numbers and the rest of the Trucks are being reviewed now the new stuff has been added 

 

[delems]

11 75mm vrs 8 37mm doesn't seem right either; but I suppose better.

[dm79]

lol of all the imbalance numbers threads this one has made me laugh the most. To be blunt and to the point who gives a [censored] on 3 missing HTs with 37mm door knocker on. Thanks for cheering me up Delems.

[Mosizlak]

10 minutes ago, dm79 said:

lol of all the imbalance numbers threads this one has made me laugh the most. To be blunt and to the point who gives a [censored] on 3 missing HTs with 37mm door knocker on. Thanks for cheering me up Delems.

I think the point was that the allieds get 11 of them armed with the 75mm gun, while we get less of a vastly inferior unit. 

Makes zero sense. 

[delems]

*** To be blunt and to the point who gives a [censored] on 3 missing HTs with 37mm door knocker on. Thanks for cheering me up Delems.

You're welcome 

Part of the point is, how come allies get more; why can't axis ever get 11 and allies 8?

Or maybe axis 30 first line tanks and usa only 14?  Yes, axis gets 11 TD, allies 9, so axis ahead there.

Or maybe axis 40 run and gun 'bar', instead of 25 lmgs and 10 stg44?

I know a few different makes no difference except the fringe case.

But some of these numbers aren't different, they're substantial, and feel like always in allies favor.

Maybe I'm nitpicking, idk, but just always seems supply numbers could be balanced better. (eg semis 75 to 45)

I'm prolly just grumpy because I can't sail anymore - prolly take a few months to get over.

Edited December 21, 2021 by delems

[dm79]

5 minutes ago, Mosizlak said:

I think the point was that the allieds get 11 of them armed with the 75mm gun, while we get less of a vastly inferior unit. 

Makes zero sense. 

The only argument here is around the choice of CRS to not give both sides a 75mm armed HT, both units are so ineffective late game this whole conversation is a waste of time, why even review it just match them up CRS and put it to bed.

m3 75mm - 169 sorties  28 kills

251 37mm - 205 sorties 60 kills

Interesting stats... and far from a huge deal.

[dm79]

9 minutes ago, delems said:

*** To be blunt and to the point who gives a [censored] on 3 missing HTs with 37mm door knocker on. Thanks for cheering me up Delems.

You're welcome 

Part of the point is, how come allies get more; why can't axis ever get 11 and allies 8?

Or maybe axis 30 first line tanks and usa only 14?  Yes, axis gets 11 TD, allies 9, so axis ahead there.

Or maybe axis 40 run and gun 'bar', instead of 25 lmgs and 10 stg44?

I know a few different makes no difference except the fringe case.

But some of these numbers aren't different, they're substantial, and feel like always in allies favor.

Maybe I'm nitpicking, idk, but just always seems supply numbers could be balanced better. (eg semis 75 to 45)

I'm prolly just grumpy because I can't sail anymore - prolly take a few months to get over.

Pick your battles mate, some of them differences have a bigger effect on balance and game enjoyment than others.

The biggest being the Axis vs US inf capability, this needs looking at even more so since another weapon was added in the M1 Carbine, the problem here is how to you make a list that balanced with US when it also needs to be balanced vs the French and less so the Brits.

Maybe the problem is not the Axis flag but just how much variety of good units the US inf units have, as Axis once the St44's and since the FG was removed and LMG nerfed to uselessness,  Axis inf play is pretty bad at close quarters, MP40 is ok and Italian one is also only ok the gulf is quite large here.

[TMAN]

The reasoning behind the supply numbers 15 USA 75mm HTs vrs 10 axis 37mm HTs was taking into consideration the supply of Axis Pak40 75mm AT guns.  We are still monitoring usage/kills and supply numbers on the new equipment.

 

 

[Mosizlak]

30 minutes ago, dm79 said:

The only argument here is around the choice of CRS to not give both sides a 75mm armed HT, both units are so ineffective late game this whole conversation is a waste of time, why even review it just match them up CRS and put it to bed.

m3 75mm - 169 sorties  28 kills

251 37mm - 205 sorties 60 kills

Interesting stats... and far from a huge deal.

Oh, I agree. 75mm vs a crap 37mm.  Dunno the logic behind this choice, but I rarely can figure them out. 

It's a niche unit anyway, a few people will do OK with it, but meh. Seems like a lot of modeling time for that type of unit. 

[delems]

*** taking into consideration the supply of Axis Pak40 75mm AT guns

As axis has 12 pak 38, while usa has 19 m1; not sure I get your logic or numbers.

Oh, hmm, axis does have 4 88 though too.

Edited December 21, 2021 by delems

[drkmouse]

39 minutes ago, TMAN said:

The reasoning behind the supply numbers 15 USA 75mm HTs vrs 10 axis 37mm HTs was taking into consideration the supply of Axis Pak40 75mm AT guns.  We are still monitoring usage/kills and supply numbers on the new equipment.

 

 

so becuse axis gets  short chaned on  pal40 they also get short cahnged on  ht???
sory i see  ( exp  ok thta team can field  12 palyer your team can only field 9, but do not wurry we are givnig the 12 palyer team 12 new car,  you get 9!! all even!! )

[fidd]

1 hour ago, dm79 said:

Pick your battles mate, some of them differences have a bigger effect on balance and game enjoyment than others.

The biggest being the Axis vs US inf capability, this needs looking at even more so since another weapon was added in the M1 Carbine, the problem here is how to you make a list that balanced with US when it also needs to be balanced vs the French and less so the Brits.

Maybe the problem is not the Axis flag but just how much variety of good units the US inf units have, as Axis once the St44's and since the FG was removed and LMG nerfed to uselessness,  Axis inf play is pretty bad at close quarters, MP40 is ok and Italian one is also only ok the gulf is quite large here.

And that, in a nutshell, is exactly why I want to see the end of the vanilla axis TOE's. Split the axis into 3 korps, and you can have 3 different TOE's for armour Bde's, and 3 for infantry Bde's, as well as, potentially, 3 different infantry garrisons; each suited to one of the three allied nations, or, suited to the types of terrain in a given area, if you prefer...

Edited December 21, 2021 by fidd

[undercova]

SdKfz 251 / 22

 

if you need blueprints:

https://www.the-blueprints.com/blueprints/tanks/ww2-tanks-germany-2/

Edited December 23, 2021 by undercova

[Dre21]

On 12/21/2021 at 3:10 PM, fidd said:

And that, in a nutshell, is exactly why I want to see the end of the vanilla axis TOE's. Split the axis into 3 korps, and you can have 3 different TOE's for armour Bde's, and 3 for infantry Bde's, as well as, potentially, 3 different infantry garrisons; each suited to one of the three allied nations, or, suited to the types of terrain in a given area, if you prefer...

As they (crs ) has said its not going to happen so you might as well save your time typing it.

Not dissing you here just trying to help , there is a lot of things I would like to see too but it sure is probably never going to happen.

One is dmg model on ATG and AAA guns , in my eyes long over due . Crs deems it as low priority,  I think it's a crucial element in the game chain. Especially when one sees more then 1 ATG as a armor driver, a visual confirmation of the unit being destroyed is nice so one can pay attention to the next target.

Now we have 2 AP rounds and a HE rounds with a belt of MG on it , should be dead right so onto next target just to get shot exactly by that ATG gun and now you lost the surprise and angle cause you started to shoot at the other ATG , and instead of having to deal with 1 it's 2 now and one will get ya .

[fidd]

4 hours ago, Dre21 said:

As they (crs ) has said its not going to happen so you might as well save your time typing it.

Not dissing you here just trying to help , there is a lot of things I would like to see too but it sure is probably never going to happen.

One is dmg model on ATG and AAA guns , in my eyes long over due . Crs deems it as low priority,  I think it's a crucial element in the game chain. Especially when one sees more then 1 ATG as a armor driver, a visual confirmation of the unit being destroyed is nice so one can pay attention to the next target.

Now we have 2 AP rounds and a HE rounds with a belt of MG on it , should be dead right so onto next target just to get shot exactly by that ATG gun and now you lost the surprise and angle cause you started to shoot at the other ATG , and instead of having to deal with 1 it's 2 now and one will get ya .

"Never" is a long time. I keep hammering at it as I have fairly grave concerns for the game when the Panther and the like come in, as I cannot see how that's going to work with the current vanilla axis TOE, as it'll essentially magnify effects that are already pretty plain with the Tiger in terrain where it cannot employ it's stand-off advantage - which is around 1/3rd to half of the map, As I see it, the advent of the Panther/Tiger II - both vehicles I'd like to see one day, both as an opponent and a vehicle to operate - will simply lead to insoluable problems. Too few, and the axis will get creamed by the US, only likely more so, or, too many and the Arfr/BEF on flat terrain will be completely unable to resist an attack. There really isn't much middle ground here imho.  CRS may not want to implement a 3 korps system, as it materially adds to the time spent changing TOE's as tiers progress. However, I think they will come to see, like it or not, that it's necessary, eventually.

[Dre21]

10 hours ago, fidd said:

"Never" is a long time. I keep hammering at it as I have fairly grave concerns for the game when the Panther and the like come in, as I cannot see how that's going to work with the current vanilla axis TOE, as it'll essentially magnify effects that are already pretty plain with the Tiger in terrain where it cannot employ it's stand-off advantage - which is around 1/3rd to half of the map, As I see it, the advent of the Panther/Tiger II - both vehicles I'd like to see one day, both as an opponent and a vehicle to operate - will simply lead to insoluable problems. Too few, and the axis will get creamed by the US, only likely more so, or, too many and the Arfr/BEF on flat terrain will be completely unable to resist an attack. There really isn't much middle ground here imho.  CRS may not want to implement a 3 korps system, as it materially adds to the time spent changing TOE's as tiers progress. However, I think they will come to see, like it or not, that it's necessary, eventually.

Well I have been waiting since the game has gone live for dmg model in ATG and AAA , and have brought it up year after year till I took a long hiatus from the forum , do we see it in game ? NOPE  so don't hold your breath.

Last year I touched that subject again , just to be told it's low priority,  I even came up with various stand ins that would be easy to put in as to show a destroyed gun that would not even need a complete dmg state of said equipment . 

[fidd]

6 hours ago, Dre21 said:

Well I have been waiting since the game has gone live for dmg model in ATG and AAA , and have brought it up year after year till I took a long hiatus from the forum , do we see it in game ? NOPE  so don't hold your breath.

Last year I touched that subject again , just to be told it's low priority,  I even came up with various stand ins that would be easy to put in as to show a destroyed gun that would not even need a complete dmg state of said equipment . 

I agree it would be nice. and indeed useful, however, I think there are other issues that need fixing first, Players are I think not using ATG's nor AAA to anything like the degree to which we used to, because of the "battle-inversion" (attackers around town before defenders) and close in FMS's. Once that's fixed there's a point to adding a damage model. Not much point adding it as a feature if players continue to avoid using them?

[Dre21]

3 hours ago, fidd said:

I agree it would be nice. and indeed useful, however, I think there are other issues that need fixing first, Players are I think not using ATG's nor AAA to anything like the degree to which we used to, because of the "battle-inversion" (attackers around town before defenders) and close in FMS's. Once that's fixed there's a point to adding a damage model. Not much point adding it as a feature if players continue to avoid using them?

That may be the case now , but think back a few years , I would estimate we lost about 10 % if not more of dedicated Tankers on both sides due to the fact that they launched multiple rounds at an ATG or as a INF at an AAA just to think it's dead , and to start paying attention at new target or wanted to move just to be killed by exactly said gun.

I'm assuming lots of them rage quit to never log back in . 

Like I said it wouldn't take much , one of my ideas was a 2dary explosion like we get with AI that shows a visual indication its destroyed. Rag doll effects on the crew would be another .

Every none action taken will result in a reaction by players, in our case it's unfortunately players that will leave the game.

And because we have visual dmg pretty much with all equipment besides AAA and ATG it's a big missing piece in our player retention puzzle.

Just think of new players come across said scenario , just to die to the gun they just thought they killed , but with no visual indicator how do they know. 

Seen it plenty of times where new guys shot at AI just to [censored] but with them not responding via PM and chat it was hard to explain , and then just to watch them die exactly by the AI they just put clip after clip in , to log and never come back cause they think the game is utter junk and broken.

Remember one impression is often all one gets and if it's a extreme negative one they are done with it and will never ever try it again period.

That goes with dmg models of new equipment and existing models too and allready invested people we all have a breaking point, I rage quit once when a Vickers took all my shrek rounds to the turret and kept the Bunker door covered in a town that we pretty much had all we needed was the bunker,  just to watch that our inf could not make it to the bunker cause of that . Then another ET spawned and it was all done with .

[rotsechs]

2 hours ago, Dre21 said:

And because we have visual dmg pretty much with all equipment besides AAA and ATG it's a big missing piece in our player retention puzzle.

Everything else has a visual on hits. I can understand why it's not now a priority, the new engine should be I hope, but why in 20 years it's never been done is bizarre. Hopefully Dre, it will be in V2. 

Why they have no stamina bar is also odd. Pushing a gun, even a small one, up hill for 500m?