M1A1 carbine rate of fire unmetered

[tater]

What is the fastest AIMED fire someone can do with a carbine? Like fastest at 100m with all rounds hitting the paper.

[tater]

Offline, I got 13/15 on the paper at 100m in 7.5 seconds. About 120 RPM with 86% accuracy (where "accuracy" means hitting the paper).

I got 11/15 on the paper at 20m trying to keep on the paper AND rapid fire in a little over 4 seconds. That's 225 RPM with 73% landing on the paper at 20m.

I have rarely used it in game, so I'm not great, one of you can probably do better.

[Mosizlak]

54 minutes ago, tater said:

What is the fastest AIMED fire someone can do with a carbine? Like fastest at 100m with all rounds hitting the paper.

Not the question that should be asked. 

The question is why all semi autos aren't as fast.   

Either crank all semi autos up the M1 carbine speed, or slow down the M1 carbine to match the other semi autos.

This shouldn't even be debated. 

[tater]

49 minutes ago, Mosizlak said:

Not the question that should be asked. 

The question is why all semi autos aren't as fast.   

Either crank all semi autos up the M1 carbine speed, or slow down the M1 carbine to match the other semi autos.

This shouldn't even be debated. 

The Garand was experimented with as a select fire weapon, but was substantially changed form the issued weapon (longer receiver), and was about 700 RPM (used a BAR magazine). Not a simple mod kit like the M1 Carbine which was planned from the start to be fully automatic.

Maybe they all need to be fixed?

8 rounds in 1.75 seconds. 275 RPM.

Just tried offline. Our M1 is grossly too slow. Needs to be able to fire about twice as fast as it does now.

Edited January 16, 2022 by tater

[tater]

G43

 

he only fires 3 rounds, but does so in 1 second. So 180 RPM is a minimum for the G43.

[dm79]

1 hour ago, tater said:

You are complaining that a gun with an action capable of 750 RPM can fire at 450 RPM in unaimed semi-automatic fire. A number which seems to be plausible in RL, just pointing it downrange and trying for max ROF.

The M1 is a needed US weapon, but the relative number of them needs to be looked at, since they did not offset M1s, they are functionally replacements for pistols.

Where a i complaining? Just clearly laying out how the game works, if you want this and this expect the other side to get that and that.. 

As the old saying goes 

"You can't have your cake and eat it, too."

But in your case that is what you would like, just be thankful that you get such a diverse range of very good inf weapons, the US forces are spoiled for good stuff but you still want more.

[tater]

MAS 44 (same as MAS 40 with the addition of a box mag) does in a vid (guy not even remotely trying for max ROF) 5 rounds in 2.25s. 133 RPM as the min for the MAS40.

Not that all the guns chambered for real rifle ammo would be all over the place fired super fast (my shoulder hurts thinking about it).

 

[dm79]

1 hour ago, fidd said:

The "mad minute" was part of the musketry qualification for the British Army, for the whole period the weapon was used. It is true that not everyone could attain the required accuracy/number of rounds down-range, but the great majority of troops, could, and did attain this standard. Some experienced troops could shoot circa 35 aimed-shots in the minute, using the right middle-finger to pull the trigger, the instant the bolt went home, which wasn't doctrine, but did work effectively. Some 40 years after I had a go at the mad-minute, I forget now how many rounds I managed, but it was over 25, and under 30. With more practice, I think I could have managed the 30. That was at foot square metal plates at 300 yards, hitting them around half the time. With even a section of 4 riflemen, I'd confidently expect them to nail, as a group, all ten such targets in a few seconds. This was a very capable weapon, and many of us who had to then use it's replacement - the SLR - did not favour the new weapon, especially at range. 

I went and had a look at that qualification from what i can find it was a PRE WW2 exercise.

This seems to detail it better than your statement

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mad_minute

Also 

https://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/tag/mad-minute/

https://lee-enfield.org/useful-links/91-the-mad-minute

That last link also states it was not normal practice.

Quote

British soldiers with their Enfields did NOT fire 30 rounds a minute as a general rule (although we accept it is possible).

These differ from how you describe the pinky finger trigger which i have seen i think the two things are different, one is aimed the pinky is volume of fire and semi aimed.

[tater]

Just now, dm79 said:

But in your case that is what you would like, just be thankful that you get such a diverse range of very good inf weapons, the US forces are spoiled for good stuff but you still want more.

Actually, I want the different armies to all be more diverse from each other in ways they really were. The biggest issue is not what is modeled, but the paradigm of small units in game—which effectively don't exist.

A reason I am a huge fan of getting "AI" into the game, such that each inf player plays at the very least a small group of inf, is for this sort of play. 10 infantry running around playing what weapon they like, doing what they like is functionally identical to having tanks spawn such that each player that gets a tank drives off with just 1 part of the tank. Like a driver cruising off with just his quarter of the tank, and a turret floating in the air doing what it likes, etc. Infantry operated in squads that were as closely connected as the crew of a tank, yet in game they can literally each be km away from each other.

I realize that is not the case. The problem with the French has always been their counterfactual nature, and the problem with the US is that basically zero US infantry should be using anything not semi or fully automatic.

[tater]

BTW, based on the Garand vid I posted, the M1 in game is not nearly fast enough. ROF in unaimed rapid fire is 1/2 what it should be.

[Mosizlak]

36 minutes ago, tater said:

BTW, based on the Garand vid I posted, the M1 in game is not nearly fast enough. ROF in unaimed rapid fire is 1/2 what it should be.

Seems all of the semi autos are from videos I've seen of them being fired. Bring them all up to speed instead of slowing down the M1 carbine. 

[tater]

35 minutes ago, Mosizlak said:

Seems all of the semi autos are from videos I've seen of them being fired. Bring them all up to speed instead of slowing down the M1 carbine. 

Agree. Audit all of them.

I should have tested the G43, too. That min I posted for it is very much a minimum, the guy was not even trying.

Edited January 16, 2022 by tater

[tater]

BTW, the M1 clip was almost certainly blanks, so I think the ROF should be fine, but the lack of any muzzle climb should be ignored.

[tater]

I got 1.35 seconds with my stopwatch. Those are not blanks, lol.

360 RPM, and there was a huge pause after the first round.

If anything, the semis are too slow. (probably all of them)

[tater]

This young man put 8 on a close target in 1.36 seconds.

 

LOL. Under 1 s (and he's counting the 6 he shot, since he loaded 8).

Edited January 17, 2022 by tater

[tater]

Jesus. Aiming at ONE target, he fires 6 in 0.67 seconds (my stopwatch so grain of salt). That's 540 RPM. That means all 15 in 1.7 seconds.

Then he shoots 2 each at 3 different targets in under 1 second.

 

Edited January 17, 2022 by tater

[tater]

G43 offline. 10 rounds in ~3.6 s. 167 RPM (G41 was the same)

MAS40, 5 in 2.2 s. 136 RPM

M1, 8 in 2.9 s. 166 RPM (which we now know is ~2X too slow)

Nothing on youtube for super rapid fire for the German or French weapons, but it is fair to say all are probably too slow by at least 2X (and we know the M1 is slow by ~2X now)

Note, related to something @fidd and I have both said about the Enfield—it could have the bolt cycle stay in the sight picture, AND fire quite fast. We were saying approaching the semis—and I was thinking of the semis right now in ww2ol... which are arguably all 2X too slow.

The semis can all have the cycle time dropped, the SMLE can as well. Then dump the M1 from the UK (they can keep them in UK garrisons maybe, since they only had them for "home defense"). I think we both have said that the SMLE should be like "a slow semi auto" and it turns out the semis we have in game... are slow semi-autos.

 

 

Edited January 17, 2022 by tater

[undercova]

So you guys think these keen on guns guys are the standard ??

They trained themselves for years/decades ... to get to the accuracy and speed shown in the videos. And you think it would be appropriate for "our" standard soldier to have similar skills ? Which most likely joined army a few weeks ago and just came from basic training

[tater]

8 hours ago, undercova said:

So you guys think these keen on guns guys are the standard ??

They trained themselves for years/decades ... to get to the accuracy and speed shown in the videos. And you think it would be appropriate for "our" standard soldier to have similar skills ? Which most likely joined army a few weeks ago and just came from basic training

Of course not. The question from the standpoint of WW2OL is the mechanical limitation of the gun. If that guy can fire 8 rounds in 1.36 seconds, then the gun is capable of that, period.

Should aircraft be modeled such that since average pilots could not trim perfectly, speeds are lower than they should be? "Sure, an ACE could wring every kph out of the aircraft, but the average guy couldn't, so let's go with that?"

Or a tank. Say we had footage of a certain real tank in a test with stopwatch running from back in the day, and it fired, then turned the turret 90 degrees, and fired again in XX seconds, for argument, a Tiger. Then we compare to in game, and the ww2ol tiger can shoot, rotate turret 90, then shoot as well—but the turret rotation is half as fast. Just leave it—green crews probably did stuff slower, right?

Edited January 17, 2022 by tater

[dm79]

12 hours ago, undercova said:

So you guys think these keen on guns guys are the standard ??

They trained themselves for years/decades ... to get to the accuracy and speed shown in the videos. And you think it would be appropriate for "our" standard soldier to have similar skills ? Which most likely joined army a few weeks ago and just came from basic training

I think the argument on that front would be that what you describe translates into the ability of the player to hit a target,  the weapon should fire as fast as it should historically and mechanically, the only gray area here i feel is the bolt action rifles as weapon skill plays into how fast a rifle will fire up to the limit of the mechanical aspect of the bolt action. It's a tough one to model in a game and the enfield already fires faster than any other bolt action rifle in the game.

That all said firing as fast as possible not much beyond point blank ain't going to hit [censored] or is a gamble.

[tater]

4 minutes ago, dm79 said:

I think the argument on that front would be that what you describe translates into the ability of the player to hit a target,  the weapon should fire as fast as it should historically and mechanically, the only gray area here i feel is the bolt action rifles as weapon skill plays into how fast a rifle will fire up to the limit of the mechanical aspect of the bolt action. It's a tough one to model in a game and the enfield already fires faster than any other bolt action rifle in the game.

That all said firing as fast as possible not much beyond point blank ain't going to hit [censored] or is a gamble.

Yeah, make weapons fire at the rate they could fire, then if people are overly accurate with them, then we have sway/etc that can move that dial a little.

The OP was that the M1 Carbine can empty the mag in 1-2 seconds—which turns out to be accurate, since it's certainly possible to fire 15 in ~1.7 seconds in the real world (literal video above).

So the problem is not the M1 Carbine, it might be the other semis—and the Garand is also demonstrably slow (video proof above, multiple shooters).

I would assume the German and French semis are similarly broken—fix those.

[dm79]

11 minutes ago, tater said:

Yeah, make weapons fire at the rate they could fire, then if people are overly accurate with them, then we have sway/etc that can move that dial a little.

The OP was that the M1 Carbine can empty the mag in 1-2 seconds—which turns out to be accurate, since it's certainly possible to fire 15 in ~1.7 seconds in the real world (literal video above).

So the problem is not the M1 Carbine, it might be the other semis—and the Garand is also demonstrably slow (video proof above, multiple shooters).

I would assume the German and French semis are similarly broken—fix those.

If the Carbine is shooting like the ingame video that looks wrong and i am not aware of any other game that has it firing that fast. Can you even hold the trigger down on a real one?

[tater]

11 minutes ago, dm79 said:

If the Carbine is shooting like the ingame video that looks wrong and i am not aware of any other game that has it firing that fast. Can you even hold the trigger down on a real one?

What do you mean the video looks wrong? Look at his other vids, he's ridiculously skilled.

The point is there is no mechanical limitation that should slow the weapon down. I can say with certainty, there is no possible way I could do in game what he did in the last part with the full furniture M1 Carbine. 2 on the left target, 2 on the right, then back to the left one—skipping the middle target—in anything even approaching his time.

being able to fire a lot of rounds fast should be possible, but it's not like they are going to hit anyone 99% of the time.

[dm79]

1 minute ago, tater said:

What do you mean the video looks wrong? Look at his other vids, he's ridiculously skilled.

The point is there is no mechanical limitation that should slow the weapon down. I can say with certainty, there is no possible way I could do in game what he did in the last part with the full furniture M1 Carbine. 2 on the left target, 2 on the right, then back to the left one—skipping the middle target—in anything even approaching his time.

being able to fire a lot of rounds fast should be possible, but it's not like they are going to hit anyone 99% of the time.

I think what i am saying is the in game video looks like he can hold the trigger and have what looks like an SMG, or do you have to click (pull the trigger) for each round, IRL can you hold the trigger and spew out the rounds, or is that due to it being a modern recreation?

[tater]

7 minutes ago, dm79 said:

I think what i am saying is the in game video looks like he can hold the trigger and have what looks like an SMG, or do you have to click (pull the trigger) for each round, IRL can you hold the trigger and spew out the rounds, or is that due to it being a modern recreation?

He is certainly pulling the trigger for each round.

The gun is semiautomatic.