S76 Frontal Hull vs Tiger

[dm79]

1 hour ago, fidd said:

I think you misunderstand my post. I was wondering if the falling blocks of the cupola were modelled as armour, or if their being "locked open" might be the reason penetrations were occurring with 0.50 cals. (It maybe that they should be able to anyway). I think you'll find that the "simpler" late cupolas were made simpler in terms of manufacture, rather than simpler and less effective. There was also an attempt to re-use the same cupola design on as many different vehicles as possible towards the end of the war, a move towards a "standard" cupola, rather than each one being specifically designed for a given vehicle which had been the case hitherto.

Until reading this thread I'd not consciously realised that Tiger's cupola was missing it's operable falling blocks.

Early

 

Late

See the difference to the cupola?

I am concerned the direction of conversation is moving away from the subject of the thread but i don't understand what you are trying to say, if you are implying that the game has the cupola modeled as weak point and or it should be so a .50 cal round could go though these gaps filled with glass?

 

They don't flip up they are just solid lumps of glass in a box like this:

https://tiger1.info/EN/Turret-vision-port-frame.html

 

 

[dfire]

No matter what tank I'm in, if I ever get in a situation where I'm in an engagement front vs front against a tiger, I already consider it a loss, even if I kill him. A "tactical" loss, if you will. Although sometimes long range I'll engage them with a churchill7 and try to land HE on the main gun, since the tiger has a very hard time killing c7 frontal at long rage in this game. When I'm axis, I also strongly avoid going front vs front against any 76mm/17lbr, even though I know I probably have a slight advantage vs s76/m10. It really just depends on the situation though.

Edited January 21, 2022 by dfire

[dm79]

33 minutes ago, dfire said:

No matter what tank I'm in, if I ever get in a situation where I'm in an engagement front vs front against a tiger, I already consider it a loss, even if I kill him. A "tactical" loss, if you will. Although sometimes long range I'll engage them with a churchill7 and try to land HE on the main gun, since the tiger has a very hard time killing c7 frontal at long rage in this game. When I'm axis, I also strongly avoid going front vs front against any 76mm/17lbr, even though I know I probably have a slight advantage vs s76/m10. It really just depends on the situation though.

That's A play style one of many and while a valid way to play it does not remove the issue of some guns/amour being incorrect or over performing or we just as well start treating the game like an arcade shooter no better that fantasy games like WOT! 

It's also a very individualistic play style, you are not going to be supporting any attacks sat out in the middle of nowhere waiting for the one tank to come past side on for you to shoot in a perfect engagement. Or only shooting targets you know you can kill, It's almost like infantry sniper style. 

 

[dfire]

7 hours ago, dm79 said:

That's A play style one of many and while a valid way to play it does not remove the issue of some guns/amour being incorrect or over performing or we just as well start treating the game like an arcade shooter no better that fantasy games like WOT! 

It's also a very individualistic play style, you are not going to be supporting any attacks sat out in the middle of nowhere waiting for the one tank to come past side on for you to shoot in a perfect engagement. Or only shooting targets you know you can kill, It's almost like infantry sniper style. 

 

Yeah, that's my point. You never know whats going to happen in this game since the values are off, so I usually try to get an advantage with cover instead of rolling the dice head on, but you have to know the basics because there are gonna be plenty of times you get challenged head on unless you sit back and wait in the middle of nowhere like you said.

Edited January 22, 2022 by dfire

[dm79]

34 minutes ago, dfire said:

Yeah, that's my point. You never know whats going to happen in this game since the values are off, so I usually try to get an advantage with cover instead of rolling the dice head on, but you have to know the basics because there are gonna be plenty of times you get challenged head on unless you sit back and wait in the middle of nowhere like you said.

 that's one way to deal with the issue by not dealing with it, me, i think i will try my luck at getting them to fix things. 

[fidd]

On 1/20/2022 at 10:03 PM, dm79 said:

See the difference to the cupola?

I am concerned the direction of conversation is moving away from the subject of the thread but i don't understand what you are trying to say, if you are implying that the game has the cupola modeled as weak point and or it should be so a .50 cal round could go though these gaps filled with glass?

Many thanks for taking the time to shew those pictures. I'm not suggesting anything in particular "should happen" here, I was just saying that because, when closed down "fully" the Tiger remains able to see outside, that suggests that the falling blocks which should cover the vision blocks must (if modelled) therefore be considered open, as they would obscure the view outside if closed. If the falling blocks are not implemented on the Tiger, that begs the question, is the armour they confer not implemented? Put another way, is there an "armour leak" on the Tiger cupolas caused by the absence of the falling blocks? And: Could this be the reason Tigers are vulnerable to 0.50 cal fire, if the falling blocks are not modelled?

Basically I'm offering a possible explanation for why, in game, due to simplification of the Tiger's cupola by CRS1, the 0.50 can penetrate into the Tiger when strafing. To my mind if the Tiger had it's falling blocks modelled, as the Char does, then a fully closed down Tiger should be immune to air-attack with 0.50 cals, but would lose some SA, as it would necessarily mean the loss of the view outside with the hatches buttoned up, if the falling blocks were down, again, just like the Char.

[unpilot]

Interesting back and forth about armor penetration of such and where to hit armor.

From my point of view, after playing this game/sim since it started, the hit "points" are way off.

Case in point, last week on two occasions I walked up to a 88 as a sapper and shot both gunner and spotter from 6 inches in the head 2 shots each.

Then ran to nearby tiger, put charge on....it goes into the tank...does not "stick" on the sides. No kill, just some smoke.

Then I hear the 88 I just shot firing. No kill on either unit. 

The way hits are recorded are flaky as can be and always have been.

Maybe that is what keeps me coming back, the crazy uncertainty of it all.

The first video of the Sherm taking hits from a tiger and then one shoting said tiger...wow I guess proves my point.....I have never done that.

Actually, when the tiger and stug3 gets in game I switch to sapping as my success ratio against those units is dismal.

[dfire]

47 minutes ago, dm79 said:

 that's one way to deal with the issue by not dealing with it, me, i think i will try my luck at getting them to fix things. 

I know, I have been watching the forums lately  I ran out of energy trying to push for fixes so i've been just hanging out on the sidelines for the past year or so

 

You ever see this one? I think I posted this awhile back during the period you were on leave from the game. Granted, it was long range, but I feel like there were more than 1 shots that should've killed it. I talked to him awhile after this encounter and he confirmed his 50 cal gunner died in one of the first few shots, but nothing else would take damage. Just one small example of the big picture.. I know what you're going through to an extent!

 

 

Edited January 22, 2022 by dfire

[dm79]

18 minutes ago, dfire said:

I know, I have been watching the forums lately  I ran out of energy trying to push for fixes so i've been just hanging out on the sidelines for the past year or so

 

You ever see this one? I think I posted this awhile back during the period you were on leave from the game. Granted, it was long range, but I feel like there were more than 1 shots that should've killed it. I talked to him awhile after this encounter and he confirmed his 50 cal gunner died in one of the first few shots, but nothing else would take damage. Just one small example of the big picture.. I know what you're going through to an extent!

 

 

That was interesting so your first shot was spot on you just got unlucky with not flaming him, Achilles seem harder to flame than normal m10, i do that all the time, your 2nd shot was short, then you had two ghost shells, i have been getting them as well, where the shell should hit if you follow the round but it vanishes, then you had a few more in the area, one hits the front left had them do nothing, think thats the angle, then you get another 2 ghost shells just before you lose your commander, at that point i know you have lost as you are now shooting while screen is shaking so you can see fall of shot, you took a big risk turning side on.

[dm79]

39 minutes ago, unpilot said:

Interesting back and forth about armor penetration of such and where to hit armor.

From my point of view, after playing this game/sim since it started, the hit "points" are way off.

Case in point, last week on two occasions I walked up to a 88 as a sapper and shot both gunner and spotter from 6 inches in the head 2 shots each.

Then ran to nearby tiger, put charge on....it goes into the tank...does not "stick" on the sides. No kill, just some smoke.

Then I hear the 88 I just shot firing. No kill on either unit. 

The way hits are recorded are flaky as can be and always have been.

Maybe that is what keeps me coming back, the crazy uncertainty of it all.

The first video of the Sherm taking hits from a tiger and then one shoting said tiger...wow I guess proves my point.....I have never done that.

Actually, when the tiger and stug3 gets in game I switch to sapping as my success ratio against those units is dismal.

Hello you bugger, please stop running like 2k just to sap me thanks

There should be some uncertainty but it should be on the edge of the numbers, like gun pens 100m  at 100 meters but you go 103/5 meters you start to get a percentage of variation either way not the gun does 110 and its 90mm that should be clear cut, no BS no WTF or we go for how it is now shoot and hope for the best, then we should stop calling this a WW2 simulation with historical data and damage model and start referring to it as a arcade FPS, why not go the full hog and add in total hit points for each unit.

Hits were never as bad as they currently are, i don't who when they changed some time between when i last took a break and now, ghost shells are super common and it looks like it's not just me that's got them after watching Dfires video above.

I fully agree with you on the inf play being more successful, i can kill 4 tanks every time with a Shrek into weak points its far more consistent and effective late game than using a tank. 

[dm79]

1 hour ago, fidd said:

Many thanks for taking the time to shew those pictures. I'm not suggesting anything in particular "should happen" here, I was just saying that because, when closed down "fully" the Tiger remains able to see outside, that suggests that the falling blocks which should cover the vision blocks must (if modelled) therefore be considered open, as they would obscure the view outside if closed. If the falling blocks are not implemented on the Tiger, that begs the question, is the armour they confer not implemented? Put another way, is there an "armour leak" on the Tiger cupolas caused by the absence of the falling blocks? And: Could this be the reason Tigers are vulnerable to 0.50 cal fire, if the falling blocks are not modelled?

Basically I'm offering a possible explanation for why, in game, due to simplification of the Tiger's cupola by CRS1, the 0.50 can penetrate into the Tiger when strafing. To my mind if the Tiger had it's falling blocks modelled, as the Char does, then a fully closed down Tiger should be immune to air-attack with 0.50 cals, but would lose some SA, as it would necessarily mean the loss of the view outside with the hatches buttoned up, if the falling blocks were down, again, just like the Char.

Short answer i don't think any vision slots are weak points at least not the cupola ones, Rats should be able to be 100% on that,  i do recall in the old days the Char Bis driver port was a target but thats a old model. Like i said not worth it if they are not in the game when they don't seem able to have correct values for huge bloody plates.

[dfire]

2 hours ago, dm79 said:

That was interesting so your first shot was spot on you just got unlucky with not flaming him, Achilles seem harder to flame than normal m10, i do that all the time, your 2nd shot was short, then you had two ghost shells, i have been getting them as well, where the shell should hit if you follow the round but it vanishes, then you had a few more in the area, one hits the front left had them do nothing, think thats the angle, then you get another 2 ghost shells just before you lose your commander, at that point i know you have lost as you are now shooting while screen is shaking so you can see fall of shot, you took a big risk turning side on.

Yeah, i think I moved since he obviously had me zero'd and I was trying to find an angle where i wouldnt get ghost shots, but then my commander died and if your commander dies in tiger at that range, very hard to see shots through gunscope. I ended up getting the kill on him, but it wasn't pretty lol

[kazee]

3 hours ago, dfire said:

Granted, it was long range, but I feel like there were more than 1 shots that should've killed it.

rounds that hit at 1:31 and 1:37 of video should have blown that et up...should have blown up any et in game except for churchill 7 since his front was fronting u. those 2 rounds were square on and with the et  sloped  slightly down to u , either should have fragged the et

1800 is not at all far for the 88 

rounds 3-4 i dont think were ghost rounds, et moved 90 and probably cut the distance so looks to me 3-4 rounds went high but barely

 

[unpilot]

10 hours ago, dm79 said:

Hello you bugger, please stop running like 2k just to sap me thanks

Only way to get ya, ya bastage as you love to set up surrounded by inf support.

Tank play has been no fun for me once shrecks and JU's with cannons get in game.

Hell cooper in his JU has cannon shot me twice as an inf hiding in a bush. 

Edited January 22, 2022 by unpilot
missspell

[Dre21]

I get the ghost rounds ( I call them sponge rounds cause they just get absorbed with out any feedback on my end or results) even in close engagements.  It more like hey someone is shooting at you please look for me instead of the result I'm supposed to get which is a dead ET.

[undercova]

the video is the best example why tanking in this game sucks right now

perfect shots ... just disappear or dont do the "appropriate" damage .. as they should

it now takes like 5-10x the rounds you needed in the past some years ago.

 

some days ago in TZ3 i was at SCP in Villers ... when a S76 was on road rushing into town. i was behind the CP and facing W. perfect angle for my Pz 3 F to flame him at 80m distance. 3 shots into engine area ... nothing. all rounds just disappeared. S76 noticed me then ... turned around ... stopped and killed me with 1st shot.

 

[rbnn]

..is why I still enjoy playing but won't pay for builder. The Tiger should be feared when it appears on the battlefield. It really is just another tank in this game. Same for the 88 ATG. Surely there are better ways to make it "fair" if the 88's are simply killing too many. Over the last few months, I've seen so many Tigers get destroyed by one shot, it's almost laughable. I suppose they are now the main target, as it is a great prize to get a Tiger, I'm sure very rewarding.   

Every time I see one spawn in now,  I'm like "yup, there goes another sucker that's gonna die in 5 minutes".. 

[warspite]

On 1/19/2022 at 4:09 PM, dm79 said:

It's quite telling or maybe a coincidence, there seems to be a real lack of Rat volume in this thread compared to others within this section of the forum.

Xoom doesn't like the volunteer RATS commenting on these threads and they have to sign a legally binding NDA so they have to be real careful what they do say. 

There are clearly problems with tank rounds but the last I heard, no RATS will be touching anymore code on the old game, all focus is on the new one, which makes me sad. 

[dm79]

Going to just leave these pictures here, notice where the holes are!

https://imgur.com/gallery/uDdmJ#c1iUobd

[KEMPI]

On 1/24/2022 at 6:00 PM, warspite said:

no RATS will be touching anymore code on the old game, all focus is on the new one, which makes me sad. 

That is not correct, if something requires dev time then it does get looked at.

As for the forums, yes we do read them and dig into potential issues, please keep posting as it does help.