Can we please start looking at AA damage

[SicnesS]

First off this isnt a side bias thing, I know it happens to everyone. I know its been talked about before but with the current state of the game its becoming a much bigger problem. Im not sure if this is a problem with AA , HE or  aircraft damage models but from personal experience using AA or being on the receiving end theres something very wrong. 

from what i can tell  it seems like a problem with engagements from 6 or 12 o clock. It would explain why pilots are having such a hard time taking planes down from dead 6, and why AA is having a hard time. It doesnt seem to be an issue with deflection or side shots (2nd 190 in video) 

 

 

[undercova]

you should try shooting Spitfires ... DB7s / A20s ... it is abnormal what they can take

[Dre21]

1 hour ago, undercova said:

you should try shooting Spitfires ... DB7s / A20s ... it is abnormal what they can take

I'm certain he is talking all Airframes and all AAA guns and the dmg they cause or should we say not cause.

[SicnesS]

23 hours ago, undercova said:

you should try shooting Spitfires ... DB7s / A20s ... it is abnormal what they can take

I have many times, and thats why i said this isnt a side bias post, it happens to everyone. 

[jwilly]

Fear of Death might begin to be modeled if AA damage was over-modeled.

Under-modeled, though? Clearly that's not about realism. What is the design goal?

Aces High, a spinoff from WarBirds at about the same time as WWIIOL, explicitly added surface objects to provide air players with more (and easy) targets. WWIIOL aircraft that can take one or more cannon rounds during a strafing pass and fly onward, certainly make it seem as if CRS has followed that approach as well.

[Dre21]

On 5/9/2022 at 10:23 PM, jwilly said:

Fear of Death might begin to be modeled if AA damage was over-modeled.

Under-modeled, though? Clearly that's not about realism. What is the design goal?

Aces High, a spinoff from WarBirds at about the same time as WWIIOL, explicitly added surface objects to provide air players with more (and easy) targets. WWIIOL aircraft that can take one or more cannon rounds during a strafing pass and fly onward, certainly make it seem as if CRS has followed that approach as well.

So over-model would be the desired effect to simulate fear of death maybe?

[mingus]

Both sides for sure. Side shots and slight angle shots not so bad, almost like it should work. But Straight on or Dead 6, sometimes its like all the ammo you have does nothing. Its not even registering damage it seems like quite often from these angles.  I cant speak about from the AA Gunners perspective as I dont play ground, but I trust sic's judgement here and have seen what he is saying.

[tater]

AAA (and ATG) have awful DMs. Really, horribly awful. Increasing survivability for them would be a huge plus.

A few points.

1. The number of gun crew is far too small.

2. Any of those crew can take the role of any other. Yes, 1 might be better, which we can't model, but 1 guy getting killed would not take out the weapon, and indeed it might take a few gone before efficacy suffered at all.

3. All those humans are capable of seeking cover, and when emplaced, cover was usually available (slit trenches, etc).

Solution (all these at the same time):

1. The extra crew need to be calculated for the weapons and added to the DM—not the model for now. So if it had 8 crew, then we show 2 (all current models), but it has 8.

2. The DM needs to ignore the CO gunner distinction. The health bar might be segmented into as many crew as the gun SHOULD have. If one is hit, there is a delay before another kill can be registered (HE might be an exception if possible). So a strafing pass can at most take out 2 crew with the current models that have 2 crew. This is a sort of "hit points" system.

3. For each weapon system, it has a ROF, and a reload time already, as well as deploy/undeploy speeds, and push speeds. These would be linked to crew points. A CAMLE might have 6 crew, most of whom are loaders/ammo bearers. They are hauling/loading 15 rnd mags to be swapped by the loader. The ROF never changes, but the time to reload the 15 rnd mag might increase once the crew drops by some number, say each crew lost after that drops the reload speed longer. If it is down to 1 crew, he shoots 15, then the reload clickity-clack goes on for as long as we think it takes to put 15 rnds in a mag, plus the swap. Maybe a minute? Whatever, we figure that out.

4. Each crew lost increases the deploy/undeploy time, AND decreases the push speed.

5. Add the ability for ATG/AAA to make a PPO (or PPOs). The PPOs are designed for that weapon. Purpose built to protect it, allowing a range of fire. Think a big foxhole object. The ATGs of different sizes like share a PPO between all of them, and the AAA probably as well to ease work required.

6. Suppression. Give the ATG/AAA the ability to "seek cover." You hit that key, and the gun obviously stops moving/shooting/building (PPO), etc. Crew is assume to be diving for cover. Hit box is decreased to some smaller value than usual. Takes a couple seconds to take effect, and more seconds to re-man the gun.

7. Actual damage model for gun. Some level of hit takes out the weapon completely, wrecking it. Whatever that should be. Direct bomb hit, etc, not small arms fire. This is the only way to kill an ATG/AAA in 1 pass.

8. Ideally the CO position gets a rifle.

Note that all but numbers 5, 6 and 8 are DM changes, not models required.

 

Edited May 13, 2022 by tater

[tater]

9 crew in this pic. And an emplacement. (10th guy taking the pic?)

88 generally had a crew of 10 I think.

CAMLE might be ~6

Pak 36 was 5

2 lber was 5

etc.

 

 

Edited May 13, 2022 by tater

[sajuk]

Looks like both sides have this problem.

From my view spitfire and P-38, Bosten eats sometimes endless 20mm guns. I dont think this is a only one side problem. 

 

What the game need from my view is more playable AA stuff specifically from USA amd Italy.  

Bombing and air to ground attack is to powerful atm. 

Edited May 13, 2022 by sajuk

[lovewing]

paging @Mosizlak

----

Prior to me trying out flying for the first time, I noticed a lot of weird things when shooting planes with 40mm bofors and was surprised. Definitely a potential issue I believe.

However, I must say that since I have began flying, AAA is definitely quite a danger (player and AI variants). Usually when I get struck by player AI it causes enough damage for me to need to RTB but I haven't been flying much and am novice at best so I can't really comment on it.

Definitely have seen wild issues during my extensive amount of shooting planes from the ground though. No evidence but will start recording more often when usin AAA to be able to provide some examples.

--

edit: @SicnesS lmao @ that fast double barrel roll the 190 does after getting blasted so much

Edited May 15, 2022 by lovewing

[Mosizlak]

12 hours ago, lovewing said:

paging @Mosizlak

----

Prior to me trying out flying for the first time, I noticed a lot of weird things when shooting planes with 40mm bofors and was surprised. Definitely a potential issue I believe.

However, I must say that since I have began flying, AAA is definitely quite a danger (player and AI variants). Usually when I get struck by player AI it causes enough damage for me to need to RTB but I haven't been flying much and am novice at best so I can't really comment on it.

Definitely have seen wild issues during my extensive amount of shooting planes from the ground though. No evidence but will start recording more often when usin AAA to be able to provide some examples.

--

edit: @SicnesS lmao @ that fast double barrel roll the 190 does after getting blasted so much

Gave up on it.  No one listens. 

[Jsilec]

I have unloaded on aircraft cockpits with the 50’s on the M10/achilles/truck and its rare to see them take damage to the nose and continue into the ground…most pull up and either go for another strafe or rtb

[atgman]

I found this on the tube since I posted a vid many years ago on the effect of Mine (huge HE) grenade from the Mk 108. (German 30mm aircraft gun)

My point in this subject, is that the 40mm Bofors has more HE in each shell.

Looking at this and the results in game.....

The vid show terminal ballistics with no load on the structures........

 

 

Edited May 27, 2022 by atgman

[lovewing]

Maybe I am overlooking some attributes of this plane (I know nothing about planes) but I believe this may be an example related to this thread since I am not only using 20mm HE + AP AA rounds but also mg.

1) I try to kill pilot with first mag of HE (some misses)

2) Plane starts moving so I decide to try to disable the right engine/wing by shooting the rear of it with 20 HE and 150 mg rounds (some misses on he but not much)

3) More strikes with HE on the side as it is taking off

4) i try to disable the right engine again during the strafe, 1 enters and explodes inside it, 1 hits the front of the plane somewhere. maybe other hits but unsure

5) out of he on 2nd strafe. I just aim at the pilot at this point, which worked

Edited June 23, 2022 by lovewing

[Dre21]

On 5/15/2022 at 10:31 AM, Mosizlak said:

Gave up on it.  No one listens. 

When lovewing was paging you ,  1st thing that went through my head was , Why would MO even bother,  you have posted numerous videos that show exactly what is going on .

And nothing had been done about it , kudos for even responding 

 

From my experience hits right into the prop or cockpit plane coming direct at you does very little dmg to no effect at all , cause I always see them pull up and come in again .

My opinion the Airframe dmg needs to be dialed down so hits register more dmg  , especially when bigger rounds hit them .

Edited June 24, 2022 by Dre21