The New 109 Control

[dkamerad]

No way you'd go back to the old ones. These are much more forgiving in a dogfight. Perhaps if you recalibrate your set-ups after some extesive testing you'll find that you have a much more dogfighable aircraft. Leaving everything as it was and saying "it's not the same" is not a very good approach to getting the best out of the airframe. Yes changing old habits is hard, and tough on the old vets, but this kind of improvement will generate more new German pilots where this has always been difficult in the past due to the touchy nature of the Bf109 in a dogfight (tight turn) scenario.

Might just be me being jaded, but I think this was coming down the pipe no matter the response. Just look at Doc's wall of text attacks.

[blkhawk7]

So I glad I resubbed for this

[shifty]

So I glad I resubbed for this

omg hi2u

[jamesi]

You can always use the stuka - king of dogfighters

[hammered]

This new 109 is really making me rethink my sub.

[nkelly]

befcause that would change everything if i was whining a week ago

ROFLMAO so true.

DOC did say they gunna TRY to fix the problem in the patch coming,my sweetheart *109F4* is just getting worse every year,it use to be the best fun plane besides RAF,after 1.16 i noticed a slight change,then after 1.32 i noticed it started to go nose heavy on take off and wanted to depart like the G6 and now,like WOW*sigh*,im trying SO hard to keep playing,its been 9 years,cant i make a decade.....

Enig,i think tempest has oyaji pegged,tempest loves him so much i think he's got him on IGNORE.

Oh you asked my thoughts on the 109 now

Edited December 9, 2010 by nkelly

[DOC]

Today I will login and see if me, not a LW vet by any means but a quite capable dogfighter in anything, can outfly any of you. If I can then maybe the problem is I am too good a pilot, but I seriously doubt this is true. Some of you have hours in these things that boggles my mind. In testing the new ones were far better for dogfighting than the old ones. They are not slower, don't climb worse, and turn just as tight. In these respects they are the same actually. What changed was you can HOLD a turn longer ... go over a slow loop with more confidence, and add aileron to elevator without the instant "omg I flopped" being so omnipresent. They did everything the old ones did and a number of critical (near stall and after departure recovery) things the old ones couldn't. Why you cannot see the same thing puzzles me greatly.

I am genuinely surprised, in a tightly turning dogfight the changes were far superior in terms of sustaining turns and avoiding departure, and much easier to recover from when you did.

The trim issue will be dixed in a hot patch, so that isn't something we're hugely worried about and it can be corrected by the user with 6 clicks of down trim (the "I" key) as it stands in release right now.

I don't know why you guys are having these issues, in dogfighting 109 vs 109 during testing the were nuch more manoeuvrable. Rest assured that whatever it is, we want to get to the bottom of it. If you feel this is about "borking you" you are totally wrong, the intention was to do something that transformed the inability to fight sustained dogfights without departing into something much more competitive at this kind of thing, and in testing this seemed like exactly what we got.

We were looking forward to your loving it not hating it. I couldn't be more dissapointed.

[beazil]

Gawddammit.

My experience mirror's tigger's and others - I never saw anyone on beta when I tried to log in - which I did several times - flew around for a while, logged and went back to the main server, as I never found anyone there.

I was/am looking very forward to the new stick input changes. I think it's awesome that Doc took the time to try to improve things for us. And posted many times his desire for us to go and try the new changes. Kudos to you who did. Give it time people. Learn it.

For those of you who have mastered the old flight model, you should have expected things not to be exactly as they were. FFS you were able to learn a model that frankly had (has) most of us baffled in terms of "milking the most" from your ride.

I hardly feel qualified to make comments that border on critisism of other's flight - as anyone who knows me understands that I have never claimed to be an expert at any level of this game - so please do not misunderstand me. But take some time to get accustomed to these changes before demanding things be reverted. Just a suggestion.

Edit: How can we expect CRS to make changes when all we do is $hit all over them for it when they try?

Edited December 9, 2010 by beazil

[Enigma]

Today I will login with a debug client and an old 109G6, and dogfight against the new ones. In testing the new ones were far better for dogfighting buyt we never flew an old one against a new one, because building a client to do that is quite complicated since the game is not intended to allow different data, which amounts to hacking.

I am genuinely surprised, in a tightly turning dogfight the changes were far superior in terms of sustaining turns and avoiding departure, and much easier to recover from when you did.

The trim issue will be dixed in a hot patch, so that isn't something we're hugely worried about and it can be corrected by the user with 6 clicks of down trim (the "I" key) as it stands in release right now.

I don't know why you guys are having these issues, in dogfighting 109 vs 109 during testing the were nuch more manoeuvrable. Rest assured that whatever it is, we want to get to the bottom of it. If you feel this is about "borking you" you are totally wrong, the intention was to do something that transformed the inability to fight sustained dogfights without departing into something much more competitive at this kind of thing, and in testing this seemed like exactly what we got.

We were looking forward to your loving it not hating it. I couldn't be more dissapointed.

As I said before DOC, I really think it was just an "oops" mistake that you may find. You really seemed genuine and really excited to tell us when the 109 was fixed... I don' think you are trying to intentionally screw us. So I don't blame you being surprised with our reactions. It's that or its a problem on our end, system wise. I have never changed my x or y axis, but maybe something else is changing how it reacts in game. Let me know what I can do to make sure that it's nothing on my end. But seeing how everyone else hates it, I don't think it's just a problem on my end. Also take note that the problem is not just in the G6. I tried out the E4, F2, F4 and the G6.

Gawddammit.

My experience mirror's tigger's and others - I never saw anyone on beta when I tried to log in - which I did several times - flew around for a while, logged and went back to the main server, as I never found anyone there.

Some of us are busy and don't have time for beta. I beta tested the **** out of 1.31 because I had a lot of free time then. I don't now.

Edit:

Plus, beta testing left a sour taste in my mouth last time. I still don't like these new tracers, I really voiced my opinion about it during beta testing and nothing happened.

Edited December 9, 2010 by Enigma

[javelin1]

Today I will login with a debug client and an old 109G6, and dogfight against the new ones. In testing the new ones were far better for dogfighting buyt we never flew an old one against a new one, because building a client to do that is quite complicated since the game is not intended to allow different data, which amounts to hacking.

I am genuinely surprised, in a tightly turning dogfight the changes were far superior in terms of sustaining turns and avoiding departure, and much easier to recover from when you did.

The trim issue will be dixed in a hot patch, so that isn't something we're hugely worried about and it can be corrected by the user with 6 clicks of down trim (the "I" key) as it stands in release right now.

I don't know why you guys are having these issues, in dogfighting 109 vs 109 during testing the were nuch more manoeuvrable. Rest assured that whatever it is, we want to get to the bottom of it. If you feel this is about "borking you" you are totally wrong, the intention was to do something that transformed the inability to fight sustained dogfights without departing into something much more competitive at this kind of thing, and in testing this seemed like exactly what we got.

We were looking forward to your loving it not hating it. I couldn't be more dissapointed.

You know doc I realy beleved you tried. Honestly. Lets try this, Get Swifty Lufty,or Gutted , Swiftcut, or even me , or any guys who know how to really wring out the 109 together with you. and lets figure this thing out. then get some newbs and work with them and see what they think. I really want this to work.

Edited December 9, 2010 by javelin1

[frantish]

I am genuinely surprised, in a tightly turning dogfight the changes were far superior in terms of sustaining turns and avoiding departure, and much easier to recover from when you did.

I concur, some of the nasty traits in 109G6 are much reduced.

Yesterday was first time I could actually dogfight in it, and was able to through it around they sky without completely loosening control.

An offline test of going to high alt and forcing it to spin and then trying to recover, it was able to recover much easier.

Now I know some want to be able to tumble, flop on purpose, to evade EA on your six, but that could be worse then then having EA on six, as in spin to ground.

...I need to give the E1 a good spin, see if that has lost any of its nimbleness.

[Enigma]

You know doc I realy beleved you tried. Honestly. Lets try this' date=' Get Swifty Lufty,or Gutted , Swiftcut, or even me , or any guys who know how to really wring out the 109 together with you. and lets figure this thing out. then get some newbs and work with them and see what they think. I really want this to work.[/quote']

Agreed

[frantish]

You know doc I realy beleved you tried. Honestly. Lets try this' date=' Get Swifty Lufty,or Gutted , Swiftcut, or even me , guys who know how to really wring out the 109 together with you. and lets figure this thing out. then get some newbs and work with them and see what they think. I really want this to work.[/quote']

Defiantly need to do this!

I have not played much recently I am rusty like an old steam engine

[Enigma]

I just flew around with DOC for 20 minutes or so. My settings were just a smidget away from default. I brought it back more toward the center and it feels better. I am really surprised how a little bit off from default can ruin a perfectly good 109.. I still need to fly around with it better and double check. But as of now it seems a lot better.

I'm interested to see what other people have to say once they play with it more.

[DOC]

Don't forget that until we hotpatch you must add the following to achieve neutral trim, ie: trimmed correctly before you take off (down trim = "I" key) and it's important to use the keyboard for this or you won't have it accurately set

Bf109E-1 : 5 clicks down

Bf109E-4 : 4 clicks down

Bf109F-2 : 7 clicks down

Bf109F-4 : 7 clicks down

Bf109G-6 : 7 clicks down

after this is patched in you won't have to do that as the default static trim state will match this.

[rebel357]

I sucked in 109s before and the patch dont make me an ace or nothing near it but its much easier to recover any stalls. Its an improvement for me anyway. If I flew it alot more I would be more comfortable in it. Its still a formidable opponent to any allied plane.

[javelin1]

Ok figured it out. If you set the trim like Doc show's you can easily pull 15.2 AoA after imputing 7 clicks of down trim in the F4 IF YOU DO NOT TOUCH YOUR TRIM WHEEL. if you do it overrides your initial trim set and messes everything up. for those of us who have learned to fly the "Trim" this will mess you up big time. after the hot patch it should go back to normal except you wont need to use the trim wheel as much. what a difference trim makes in the 109. Thank you Doc !

[khabanos]

Don't forget that until we hotpatch you must add the following to achieve neutral trim, ie: trimmed correctly before you take off (down trim = "I" key) and it's important to use the keyboard for this or you won't have it accurately set

Bf109E-1 : 5 clicks down

Bf109E-4 : 4 clicks down

Bf109F-2 : 7 clicks down

Bf109F-4 : 7 clicks down

Bf109G-6 : 7 clicks down

after this is patched in you won't have to do that as the default static trim state will match this.

The 190 needs retrimming also, about 5 click I'd guess. Haven't seen it mentioned yet so don't know if you fixed it already.

[javelin1]

What happens with the trim wheel is you normally pull you turn and start adding trim. lets say your using the 7 clicks of down trim. you roll into your turn and as soon as you move your trim wheel the game readjusts your trim point to where you set your wheel Plus 7 clicks of up trim pops in all at once inducing accelerated flop.

[DOC]

Forgot to add:

Fw190A-4 : 2 clicks downtrim before take off to achieve "neutral static trim" position

Bell Mle.14a : 2 clicks UP trim (not down) ie: "K" key

No change required to Blenheim Mk.If

[rebel357]

I just got a 5 kill sorti in 09f4, so I guess I dont suck as much as I used too I find the change will help new pilots flying axis, they still need to get advise from you vets on how to set up the trim negative for slow stall fighting. I know no one ever offered this advice to me. I figured it out through trial and error.

[Enigma]

Okay, I just flew around spanking EA all around BOZ.

I am giving this my...

The neutral trim point and my little weird settings were throwing me off.

Thanks for the help and the fix DOC.

[javelin1]

I just got a 5 kill sorti in 09f4' date=' so I guess I dont suck as much as I used too I find the change will help new pilots flying axis, they still need to get advise from you vets on how to set up the trim negative for slow stall fighting. I know no one ever offered this advice to me. I figured it out through trial and error.[/quote']

You never listened, Iv only posted it about a Gazillion times.

[beazil]

What happens with the trim wheel is you normally pull you turn and start adding trim. lets say your using the 7 clicks of down trim. you roll into your turn and as soon as you move your trim wheel the game readjusts your trim point to where you set your wheel Plus 7 clicks of up trim pops in all at once inducing accelerated flop.

THIS explains a lot. While I don't use trim to turn, I do milk it alot during flight to try to be as close to neutral as I *think* I should. Flying today I found there were definately changes in stability - not bad or good - but different from what I was accusomed to.

Edit: In 109's.

[nkelly]

Damn i'll have to CUT the trim wheel off me throttle,im always playing with it,the trim wheel that is..

Im a bit lost with this DEFAULT setting,is this for the ones who have changed their cmfl file or what ever its called..