US garrison tank supply

[jwrona]

2 minutes ago, B2K said:

wonder where one could find referenceable sortie data..... for things like awards... from older campaigns... 

Awards yes. Weapon v. Weapon breakdown, it's not publicly available... but if you know a guy......

[goreblimey]

3L will kill the m4a3 frontally.  Spall damage to crew  , tested it yesterday, trying to work on a balanced spawn list 

[delems]

It is obvious tank numbers are WAY out of whack... sheesh;  usa 39 -- everyone else 25 ish.

Simple solution, remove 6 s76, 8 s75 and then remove the IIC and 38t as not needed in tier 3.

Oh wow, usa would have 25 vehicles..... just like every other nation.

Doesn't take but 2 seconds to see how off it is and see the solution.

Edited April 8, 2021 by delems

[tater]

48 minutes ago, undercova said:

well ... for you

Why is the vickie in the 3rd group (second most powerful?) of vehicles in the US column? and the first for the UK? For the US it magically becomes a more powerful tank?

Why are all the tier columns except one empty?

The fact you have to (poorly) explain it means it;s definitionally bad data visualization, there's not even a key. What are the different yellows? They can't mean "more powerful" are darker yellow, since there are literally weakest tanks in the second darkest group.

[tater]

30 minutes ago, jwrona said:

Mind you Firefly is just a sherman hull with a bigger gun. Looks like the "good" allied tanks die to the "outdated" german ones just fine. Just maybe not frontal prayer shots. 

Hmmm, make charts for all tanks and weight them by the green area vs all opposing tanks (and ATGs), summed. By tier. That gives the tanks survivability. Then do that tank's gun vs all enemies, and sum the red. That's it's offensive capability. Course you'd need it for hull and turret... a daunting task I am unwilling to do.

Wow, interesting to look at.

 

 

[viskov]

19 minutes ago, tater said:

Hmmm, make charts for all tanks and weight them by the green area vs all opposing tanks (and ATGs), summed. By tier. That gives the tanks survivability. Then do that tank's gun vs all enemies, and sum the red. That's it's offensive capability. Course you'd need it for hull and turret... a daunting task I am unwilling to do.

Wow, interesting to look at.

 

 

I like how we compare guns and hulls but completely gloss over the fact AXIS should be using HEAT in their loadouts as well as Tungsten Carbide rounds.

[undercova]

5 hours ago, tater said:

Why is the vickie in the 3rd group (second most powerful?) of vehicles in the US column? and the first for the UK? For the US it magically becomes a more powerful tank?

Why are all the tier columns except one empty?

The fact you have to (poorly) explain it means it;s definitionally bad data visualization, there's not even a key. What are the different yellows? They can't mean "more powerful" are darker yellow, since there are literally weakest tanks in the second darkest group.

because the US equipment pops in in that tier !

[undercova]

5 hours ago, jwrona said:

http://www.wwiiequipment.com/pencalc/# do a quick experiment. Compare Sherm 75/76 to Tiger/StuG (I'll admit, it p'wns the 4g's, they arent meant to be durable tanks, sadly). Now compare the 3L's 50mm to the sherman....

M4A2 vs Tiger I


M4A3 (76) v. Tiger I


Now... Panzer 3L 50mm v. Sherman A3


Mind you Firefly is just a sherman hull with a bigger gun. Looks like the "good" allied tanks die to the "outdated" german ones just fine. Just maybe not frontal prayer shots. 

this is how it should be ... but isnt

the REAL penetation is very far away from the shell penetration we have in this game

 

so if this game would behave like the chart you posted ... the S76 would not be able to kill or hurt the Tiger frontally .. unless he is closer than 1k or has some super high luck ("Penetration unlikely"). but in this game Tigers get killed by S76s all the time frontally at distance of 1.5-2km

[tater]

20 minutes ago, undercova said:

because the US equipment pops in in that tier !

So what?

So for other nations the yellow levels are tank... strength? All the heavy tanks are towards the bottom, indeed alone there. The colors imply "quality" or combat capability... something, not tier—since tier is explicitly a column for each tier.

You could put the tank numbers in the column for the tier they are introduced in (you have 5 of those including 0), and use the yellow for 4 grades of combat capability/whatever.

[jwrona]

1 hour ago, undercova said:

so if this game would behave like the chart you posted ... the S76 would not be able to kill or hurt the Tiger frontally .. unless he is closer than 1k or has some super high luck ("Penetration unlikely"). but in this game Tigers get killed by S76s all the time frontally at distance of 1.5-2km

The tiger, in the front mantle, had a hollowed out piece where the radio went in. Nobody was stupid enough to engage the tiger with a Sherm 76 at more than 1k, so it was never exploited the way we do in game. 
 

I have a feeling that little hollowed out bit (which would be thinner armor) is the frontal sweetspot on the tiggie. 

[JAMES10]

22 minutes ago, jwrona said:

The tiger, in the front mantle, had a hollowed out piece where the radio went in. Nobody was stupid enough to engage the tiger with a Sherm 76 at more than 1k, so it was never exploited the way we do in game. 
 

I have a feeling that little hollowed out bit (which would be thinner armor) is the frontal sweetspot on the tiggie. 

Hello jwrona how are you?

The above is not true. The radios on the Tiger as with almost all German vehicles (tanks especially) are located to the right (looking forward) of the Hull Machine Gunner/Radio Operator within the vehicles hull. The space not occupied by the Radio sets, yes "sets" as radios in WWII were not all that compact and usually only preformed Transmit OR Receive, contained ready mg ammunition.

Cheers.

[jwrona]

41 minutes ago, JAMES10 said:

Hello jwrona how are you?

The above is not true. The radios on the Tiger as with almost all German vehicles (tanks especially) are located to the right (looking forward) of the Hull Machine Gunner/Radio Operator within the vehicles hull. The space not occupied by the Radio sets, yes "sets" as radios in WWII were not all that compact and usually only preformed Transmit OR Receive, contained ready mg ammunition.

Cheers.

That same spot front-right hull (where the armor is shallower for whatever youve got in there) is where I shoot EVERY panzer 3/4, without fail. Regardless, that still compromises the depth of the armor, as "sets" of whatever it may be, ammunitions, radios, so be it, is NOT the same as proper armor (or at least, that's the way it was explained to me many moons ago when I first started figuring out how to tank and where to shoot). 

Maybe my explanation is off, but the result is the same. Now, if its NOT supposed to happen that way, might be time for prod. to look into an Armor Audit, because that surely sounds like a leak. 

[dijpa]

17 hours ago, vanapo said:

Needless to say that the Sherman 76 has a positive k/d against all German tanks including the Tiger. But stats are all bollocks, right? Just give Americans as many tanks as they can fit into an AB and make half of them the best ones we got in game. It's completely ridiculous to me that the Sherman 76 is just as common as the normal Sherman.

But then again, I am not a tanker. So don't listen to me.

 

sherm76 can be 1 shotted by the smallest german pak spawnable from an FMS. Its a paper tank. If you let it into your Ab thats your problem.

[Kidd27]

5 hours ago, undercova said:

 

 

so if this game would behave like the chart you posted ... the S76 would not be able to kill or hurt the Tiger frontally .. unless he is closer than 1k or has some super high luck ("Penetration unlikely"). but in this game Tigers get killed by S76s all the time frontally at distance of 1.5-2km

Ive not had success killing a tiger at those ranges. It may very well happen.

I will mention that encounters between units happen thousands of times daily in game. Engagements that rarely took place in the real war, happen continuously here. The rare instances are going to happen more frequently.

[jwrona]

2 hours ago, Kidd27 said:

Engagements that rarely took place in the real war, happen continuously here. The rare instances are going to happen more frequently.

Stuart WILL penetrate that sheet of armor between the hull and tracks, the little gap, on a Tiger at 100-200m range. The math agrees with that one. But you NEVER saw it in real life because a stuart never got to sit 100m flank on to a Tiger. 

We have to accept that we play the *GAME* here, and the units are designed for historical roles. Nobody in their right mind would do half the sh*t wee do IRL, and we sure as heck would play more of a "team game" and showcase the best each bit of equipment has to offer. I'll take 1 "good" tank and 4-5 guys in support over 4 "good" tanks any day.

[tater]

25 minutes ago, jwrona said:

Stuart WILL penetrate that sheet of armor between the hull and tracks, the little gap, on a Tiger at 100-200m range. The math agrees with that one. But you NEVER saw it in real life because a stuart never got to sit 100m flank on to a Tiger. 

We have to accept that we play the *GAME* here, and the units are designed for historical roles. Nobody in their right mind would do half the sh*t wee do IRL, and we sure as heck would play more of a "team game" and showcase the best each bit of equipment has to offer. I'll take 1 "good" tank and 4-5 guys in support over 4 "good" tanks any day.

This is the general problem with a game world doing simulation at one level (they projectile physics), and not at the level of context, then expecting "realistic" or even "good sense" outcomes that are informed by reading histories.

We all know what sorts of things happened in RL engagements, and also the sorts of things that never seem to have happened, and we can see the latter all day long in ww2ol because the game entirely lacks the other context. Unit organization, real life movement and tactics (enemies strangely don't teleport into areas you knew were completely safe rear areas 5 minutes ago in RL, go figure), and doctrine on both sides.

We see this with air attacks vs armor (attack profiles that simply never happened in RL, and happen in game 24/7 in all weather), we see it in units that evolved to fight a threat that doesn't even exist in game, we see it in bizarre game mechanics. And we see it in people knowing precise information about the few square cm to aim at on every single target to destroy it.

[Obelix1]

23 hours ago, B2K said:

None (maybe fewer rounds, but none model wise (can't accurately recall at the moment).  the DLC are available only to those who have purchased the DLC packages via steam.

 

23 hours ago, N8 said:

Fewer rounds, like B2K stated above. 

Thank you

[vanapo]

23 hours ago, rabbit said:

Can you please trying tanking?  Turn JG51 and JG2 into Armor squads.... Pretty PLEASE!  I will even let you hunt me for your video stream, and I will scream every time you kill me.  I just want to fly relaxed and not look over my shoulder every 15 seconds.

:-D @rabbit

Sadly, I got an all air force subscription. I did spawn some of my beloved pzII and pz38ts this campagin though to show ground gameplay in some of my streams. Yet the use of those is somewhat limited, when your buddies in the supposedly "real" tanks are getting blown up left and right :-D

BTW There is no better way to introduce new people to the scale of this game than to switch between the crowded ground battles and large area air fights/patrols/cas from time to time. Do some CAS over a town and then spawn infantry there to show people all the stuff that's going on inside and around the town.

Well, this campaign was a real downer for me (we don't have to debate the reasons for this again) resulting in streaming ww2ol less and less, but still playing off stream with my JG buddies from time to time. I am so glad this campaign is finally over. Looking forward to the patches and a fresh campaign. Gonna try out the Panzerjäger on stream for sure. You are very welcome to spawn something I will be able to kill with it. Like a Vickers or a H39!

 

[undercova]

6 hours ago, dijpa said:

sherm76 can be 1 shotted by the smallest german pak spawnable from an FMS. Its a paper tank. If you let it into your Ab thats your problem.

only from flank

and only to a certain distance

[rotsechs]

On 4/8/2021 at 6:49 AM, tater said:

So what?

So for other nations the yellow levels are tank... strength? All the heavy tanks are towards the bottom, indeed alone there. The colors imply "quality" or combat capability... something, not tier—since tier is explicitly a column for each tier.

You could put the tank numbers in the column for the tier they are introduced in (you have 5 of those including 0), and use the yellow for 4 grades of combat capability/whatever.

The colours top to bottom show the tier the tank arrives. Undercover has then given the numbers available in tier 3, column 3. Easy. 

[rotsechs]

On 4/7/2021 at 7:48 PM, dfire said:

Unfortunately this is what a lot of axis tankers do nowadays. Most of the the good ones have long since left the game, while allied still has a fair amount of good tank players.

The perpetual underpop just compounds the situation and makes it even worse since there will be noone around to cover you, noone distract the enemy, less friendlies trying to kill ets, and more enemies available to focus on killing you. At least if the pop is even, the not so great tankers can have a better chance by having some of the factors I listed above eliminated

I reduced tank usage after I logged in, counted the player numbers on axis as 12, then logged into allied on another act, counted 31 players. Spawn delay was 32 secs for overpop of 3 to 1. Didn't count air but there was allied air and no lw that saw. 

I'm unsubbed. Failure to control the effect of a pop difference that high, whether that overp is allied or axis as it doesn't matter, will keep me out. 

 

[fidd]

4 hours ago, rotsechs said:

I reduced tank usage after I logged in, counted the player numbers on axis as 12, then logged into allied on another act, counted 31 players. Spawn delay was 32 secs for overpop of 3 to 1. Didn't count air but there was allied air and no lw that saw. 

I'm unsubbed. Failure to control the effect of a pop difference that high, whether that overp is allied or axis as it doesn't matter, will keep me out. 

 

I've been saying this for years - to no avail - that player numbers need to managed. The model of just allowing everyone to play whatever nationality they like, irregardless of the actual distribution is nuts. That said, 3:1 is not that serious as an UP situation, we've had 50:3 against in the past (During BC in TZ3 some years ago). That's roughly 17:1! - although over the history of the game, that was pretty unusual. 

I'd like to see equality of sides at campaign start, enforced, with the usual metrics applied to decide if someone gets their first choice or not. To get this to work fairly each player would have a personal score, affected by their behaviours in the preceding campaign, and during the current one.

Things increasing your chances of 1st choice in next campaign:

Membership of a squad registered to that side, frequent play, equal play in all tiers, having failed to get 1st choice in previous campaign etc Routinely logging or play in during UP for your side.

Things that decrease it:

Voluntary play for other side at any time in last 4 campaigns, unsquadded, squad registered to other side, lack of play in a tier, little play, routine logging in or play during OP for your side, etc

At first log in, your personal score determines if you get 1st choice that campaign, based in data from pervious 4 campaigns. 

[tater]

5 hours ago, rotsechs said:

The colours top to bottom show the tier the tank arrives. Undercover has then given the numbers available in tier 3, column 3. Easy. 

Why would you plot tier on 2 axes? There are already columns of tiers.

 

[undercova]

9 hours ago, rotsechs said:

I reduced tank usage after I logged in, counted the player numbers on axis as 12, then logged into allied on another act, counted 31 players. Spawn delay was 32 secs for overpop of 3 to 1. Didn't count air but there was allied air and no lw that saw. 

I'm unsubbed. Failure to control the effect of a pop difference that high, whether that overp is allied or axis as it doesn't matter, will keep me out. 

 

matches with my observations lately when i checked both sides for numbers and the SD and capping timers who were off big time

this problem is ingame way too long. i did a check a few years ago in TZ3 during an allied attack on Jodoigne. 21 allies vs. 12 axis. but axis had max SD

[rotsechs]

15 hours ago, fidd said:

I've been saying this for years - to no avail - that player numbers need to managed. The model of just allowing everyone to play whatever nationality they like, irregardless of the actual distribution is nuts. 

I'd like to see equality of sides at campaign start,

I see what you're saying Fidd but I can't envisage that as workable. Pop imbalance varies from all sorts of things. Even starting a campaign with 100 signed up on each side won't see 1 v 1 constantly. The game, if it is to move forward with a rewritten version 2 all singing and dancing, which should be the goal, needs players that pay. Restricting people won't keep them. 

Variable cap timers need to be supplemented if it's possible to code, with other variables. Fire base damage or fms damage. Things like that. I played more towards the end of 181 at all times of my time zone. Axis were udrp most of the time. When 1 side can match the other everywhere AND have the manpower to kill the udrp attack fbs + guard their own + dominate air = cap timers mean nothing. 

I've said many times that who wins means nothing to me. I'm not entrenched in a side bias position like some. The thing that frustrates me and I hope others too, is this could easily be the best ww2/fps/tactical/combined arms squad game/simulation and potentially run with hundreds in game. 

Probably needs to be a separate thread for this discussion that CRS get involved in.

Apologies Undercover for the blatant hijack.